It's lovely to learn more about Caroline - and to get a first-hand account from her no less!
You can see why Caroline was loaded as an heiress.
I already meant to comment on this last post, but while I knew about the money, I was surprised to learn that her father was such a big deal and occasionally attended the tobacco parliament. Given how much writer Achim dramatized the marriage story, though, I feel like we should take the FW story with a grain of salt as well? Not that I can't see him saying/doing all that, it certainly fits his personality and his paranoia re: women, but still.
That said, the way Achim reports the anecdotes from his grandma's childhood is very lively, but also reminds me of the way my grandmothers used to tell stories from theirs - not in content, but in style (including the prostitute bit, funny enough, down to the way of mentioning names).
she did not want to share them and burned them
Nooooo. I mean, I get it, but still!
I have seen a painting of her in her riding dress, it was a half male outfit in green, wiht a female skirt and a three point hat. She also rode like a man.
I'd love to see this painting, sounds pretty badass...
with the most enlightened mind
Which I suspect in large part means his opinion on women and their role, given everything we've now learned about Caroline and their relationship. But I also like it as part of the bigger picture, being close to someone like Fritz and even a member of the freemasons.
It's lovely to learn more about Caroline - and to get a first-hand account from her no less!
Indeed! I so glad it survives, and I guess I now have to look up Clara von Armin's memoirs as well, since the magazine Mildred linked says she decribes how the family unearthed Caroline's account in the 1920s.
Given how much writer Achim dramatized the marriage story, though, I feel like we should take the FW story with a grain of salt as well? Not that I can't see him saying/doing all that, it certainly fits his personality and his paranoia re: women, but still.
Oh absolutely. Just because it's ic doesn't mean it has to be literally true, plus Achim is bound to have read some anecdote collections and memoirs featuring FW being, welll, FW, which could have become jumbled in his mind with his grandmother's tale. This said, there's a footnote from the editor to the "whore, whore!" story saying: "Compare the contemporary anecdote of the encounter between the King and a "well dressed woman" in the park of Charlottenburg: "She attracted his attention, and he pushed his horse thusly in her direction that she was bound to come across his path. The monarch in general did not have a good opinion of any women of this kind, especially if they were dressed up more than usual. When he came closer, he noticed, as he would later admit himself, that she was of more than common beauty, but this even contributed to his being strengthened in his bias against all women. After he had asked her regarding her name and station, which was one of middle class burgherdom, his generally adopted principles caused the statement against her that she surely had to be a whore." (Karakterzüge aus dem Leben König Friedrich Wilhelm I. nebst verschiedenen Anekdoten. Erste Sammlung, Berlin 1787, S. 129 - 131.)
Conclusion: Maybe Achim did his exaggerating thing again, and the story his grandmother told also only referenced one "whore!" occasion, not FW doing this every Sunday, but I can well believe it happened.
I'd love to see this painting, sounds pretty badass...
I'm afraid it's lost, otherwise they surely would have had it at Zernikow. The only portrait of Caroline I've ever seen there or anywhere else is the one showing her as an old woman. Which I suspect is the result of the complete decline and lack of attention to Zernikow from the mid 19th century onwards, alas.
Fredersdorf's enlightened mind: "mit dem aufgeklärtesten Verstande, Fähigkeiten und Munterkeit des Geistes begabet" is the original phrase, and I like it for the same reasons you do, plus remember Richter (and some others) snobbishly declaring that Fredersdorf couldn't have possibly been of any interest as a person since he was just a dumb servant (thus is only interest lies in the emotion he evoked in Fritz)? Even if you ascribe rosy glasses to Caroline, who is speaking restrospectively about a man who has been dead for decades and symbolizes to her the happiest years of her life as a wife: she is writing this at a time of her life when she's known plenty of other people to compare Fredersdorf with. She's not writing as the young woman newly in love, but as an old one who has lived in Berlin when a great many of the clever spirits of the age did, she has a basis of comparison. Also, what does come across is that he wanted her to be happy in this marriage, not just play nurse to him and deliver her fortune to him. Which puts him a head of a great many husbands of the age!
Conclusion: Maybe Achim did his exaggerating thing again, and the story his grandmother told also only referenced one "whore!" occasion, not FW doing this every Sunday, but I can well believe it happened.
*nod* Yes, that makes perfect sense. Note also this passage from Voltaire's memoirs:
After Frederic-William had reviewed his giants, he used to walk through the town, and every body fled before- him full speed. If he happened to meet a woman, he would demand why she staid idling her time in the streets, and exclaim, ('Go--get home with you, you lazy hussy; an honest woman has no business over the threshold of her own door;' which remonstrance he would accompany with a hearty box on the ear, a kick in the groin (!), or a few well applied strokes on the shoulders with his cane.
Also, what does come across is that he wanted her to be happy in this marriage, not just play nurse to him and deliver her fortune to him. Which puts him a head of a great many husbands of the age!
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
timeasmymeasure
Re: "Anekdoten, die wir erlebten und hörten"
Date: 2021-07-25 09:51 am (UTC)You can see why Caroline was loaded as an heiress.
I already meant to comment on this last post, but while I knew about the money, I was surprised to learn that her father was such a big deal and occasionally attended the tobacco parliament. Given how much writer Achim dramatized the marriage story, though, I feel like we should take the FW story with a grain of salt as well? Not that I can't see him saying/doing all that, it certainly fits his personality and his paranoia re: women, but still.
That said, the way Achim reports the anecdotes from his grandma's childhood is very lively, but also reminds me of the way my grandmothers used to tell stories from theirs - not in content, but in style (including the prostitute bit, funny enough, down to the way of mentioning names).
she did not want to share them and burned them
Nooooo. I mean, I get it, but still!
I have seen a painting of her in her riding dress, it was a half male outfit in green, wiht a female skirt and a three point hat. She also rode like a man.
I'd love to see this painting, sounds pretty badass...
with the most enlightened mind
Which I suspect in large part means his opinion on women and their role, given everything we've now learned about Caroline and their relationship. But I also like it as part of the bigger picture, being close to someone like Fritz and even a member of the freemasons.
Re: "Anekdoten, die wir erlebten und hörten"
Date: 2021-07-25 11:46 am (UTC)Indeed! I so glad it survives, and I guess I now have to look up Clara von Armin's memoirs as well, since the magazine Mildred linked says she decribes how the family unearthed Caroline's account in the 1920s.
Given how much writer Achim dramatized the marriage story, though, I feel like we should take the FW story with a grain of salt as well? Not that I can't see him saying/doing all that, it certainly fits his personality and his paranoia re: women, but still.
Oh absolutely. Just because it's ic doesn't mean it has to be literally true, plus Achim is bound to have read some anecdote collections and memoirs featuring FW being, welll, FW, which could have become jumbled in his mind with his grandmother's tale. This said, there's a footnote from the editor to the "whore, whore!" story saying: "Compare the contemporary anecdote of the encounter between the King and a "well dressed woman" in the park of Charlottenburg: "She attracted his attention, and he pushed his horse thusly in her direction that she was bound to come across his path. The monarch in general did not have a good opinion of any women of this kind, especially if they were dressed up more than usual. When he came closer, he noticed, as he would later admit himself, that she was of more than common beauty, but this even contributed to his being strengthened in his bias against all women. After he had asked her regarding her name and station, which was one of middle class burgherdom, his generally adopted principles caused the statement against her that she surely had to be a whore." (Karakterzüge aus dem Leben König Friedrich Wilhelm I. nebst verschiedenen Anekdoten. Erste Sammlung, Berlin 1787, S. 129 - 131.)
Conclusion: Maybe Achim did his exaggerating thing again, and the story his grandmother told also only referenced one "whore!" occasion, not FW doing this every Sunday, but I can well believe it happened.
I'd love to see this painting, sounds pretty badass...
I'm afraid it's lost, otherwise they surely would have had it at Zernikow. The only portrait of Caroline I've ever seen there or anywhere else is the one showing her as an old woman. Which I suspect is the result of the complete decline and lack of attention to Zernikow from the mid 19th century onwards, alas.
Fredersdorf's enlightened mind: "mit dem aufgeklärtesten Verstande, Fähigkeiten und Munterkeit des Geistes begabet" is the original phrase, and I like it for the same reasons you do, plus remember Richter (and some others) snobbishly declaring that Fredersdorf couldn't have possibly been of any interest as a person since he was just a dumb servant (thus is only interest lies in the emotion he evoked in Fritz)? Even if you ascribe rosy glasses to Caroline, who is speaking restrospectively about a man who has been dead for decades and symbolizes to her the happiest years of her life as a wife: she is writing this at a time of her life when she's known plenty of other people to compare Fredersdorf with. She's not writing as the young woman newly in love, but as an old one who has lived in Berlin when a great many of the clever spirits of the age did, she has a basis of comparison. Also, what does come across is that he wanted her to be happy in this marriage, not just play nurse to him and deliver her fortune to him. Which puts him a head of a great many husbands of the age!
Re: "Anekdoten, die wir erlebten und hörten"
Date: 2021-07-25 02:06 pm (UTC)*nod* Yes, that makes perfect sense. Note also this passage from Voltaire's memoirs:
After Frederic-William had reviewed his giants, he used to walk through the town, and every body fled before- him full speed. If he happened to meet a woman, he would demand why she staid idling her time in the streets, and exclaim, ('Go--get home with you, you lazy hussy; an honest woman has no business over the threshold of her own door;' which
remonstrance he would accompany with a hearty box on the ear, a kick in the groin (!), or a few well applied strokes on the shoulders with his cane.
Also, what does come across is that he wanted her to be happy in this marriage, not just play nurse to him and deliver her fortune to him. Which puts him a head of a great many husbands of the age!
Indeed! <3 Fredersdorf
Also, from your first post:
very vivid intense blue eyes
Fredersdorf has a type? ;)
Old Blue Eyes
Date: 2021-07-25 02:17 pm (UTC)Re: Old Blue Eyes
Date: 2021-07-25 02:21 pm (UTC)Re: Old Blue Eyes
Date: 2021-07-27 05:10 am (UTC)Re: "Anekdoten, die wir erlebten und hörten"
Date: 2021-07-27 05:10 am (UTC)Yes exactly! <33 Heck, that puts him above some husbands in this age, for that matter :P