You already mentioned the Gundling-related phrasing in another comment, the use of passive constructions etc, but I also have to say, Kloosterhuis in particular seems hung up on Gundling's alcoholism being somehow responsible for his fate and that's just more of implicitely blaming him or the nebulous circumstances for it. Disrespectful and cruel are two different things, too.
did present the painting to FW3 when starting to spend some time in Wusterhausen, and had the past very much on his mind because my guess was right, this was also when he in turn had been given Wilhelmine's memoirs to read in manuscript by FW3
Interesting! Discussing family history with the great nephew? Did they like each other?
Strangely, one option Kloosterhuis does not consider at all is Ferdinand.
Heee. Poor Ferdinand. (Wait, how old was he? ... seven in 1737, hm. Might be just old enough to remember people decades later.)
as per custom when greeting or taking leave the sovereign
And here I thought there was no formal etiquette in the tobacco parliament...
I also have to say, Kloosterhuis in particular seems hung up on Gundling's alcoholism being somehow responsible for his fate
*nods* And neither him nor Göse mention Sabrow demonstrated that Gundling as per his autopsy did not actually die of alcoholism. I mean, I'm sure all the drinking didn't help, but the findings were ulcers and a hole in the stomach, notably NOT something to do with the kidneys or a damaged liver. Anyway: Klepper in Der Vater also has Gundling be an alcoholic already when first meeting FW, and I do think that's to lessen FW's responsibility for his fate, but a) Klepper is writing a novel, which b) is based on the state of research at the time, where "Gundling drank himself to death" was still the default assumption. Kloosterhuis and Göse are supposed to write non fiction. But they're so set on rescuing FW from the Frederician context that they're really spin-doctoring as if he was running for chancellor.
Interesting! Discussing family history with the great nephew? Did they like each other?
As far as I recall, not particularly for most of the time. For starters, there was the eternal suspicion of Heinrich power grabbing if you allowed him any political influence, and secondly, FW3 was a Fritz fan and Heinrich's critique of Fritz did not sit well. (There was also the eternal awkwardness about the fact that FW3 was AW's grandson, not Fritz', yet he of course always saw Fritz as the origin of Prussian glory and his spiritual predecessor etc, which made any memorial to AW a problem. Note that FW3 and family were NOT present at the Obelisk inauguration, and of course that Heinrich's 7 Years War memoirs got disappeared out of the State Archive during FW3's time.) Also they disagreed on how to deal with France and Austria. However, during the last four or three years of Heinrich's life, there was some raprochment going on, not least because FW3's wife Luise embarked on a belated cultural self education course and asked Heinrich for reading tips, which he was happy to give. (Ziebura, commenting on his selection of books for Luise, wrily does note he wasn't any more into new German literature than brother Fritz. Alter ego indeed.) This led to FW3 and Luise visiting him and he visiting them.
Now Kloosterhuis does give the impression that FW3 gave Heinrich the memoirs manuscript in order to verify whether this could actually be truly by Wilhelmine, whereas from Ziebura I got the impression FW3 simply wanted to share the sensational finding news. (Bear in mind the memoirs would only be published years after Heinrich's death, in 1808; this sharing was strictly on a need to know, confidential family level.)
In any event, the list providing the names for the people depicted in the Tobacco College painting isn't dated, neither the first version nor the correction by the Second Writer, so even the assumption that the revision happened in 1799 and not years earlier is a guess at Kloosterhuis' part. (It can't have happened later because the list is mentioned along with the gift of the painting to FW3.) It does make psychological sense, though; Heinrich had the past on his mind, he knew that at his age he wouldn't have much longer to live, more likely than not, and he was the methodical type, so handing over the painting with a "who is who" would be the thing to do.
And here I thought there was no formal etiquette in the tobacco parliament...
Not between adults, to be fair. (FW had ordered he was only to be adressed as "Colonel", not "Sire" or with any other title while there.) Children are another matter. ;)
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Kloosterhuis: Sehnsuchtsort
Date: 2021-04-12 08:23 pm (UTC)did present the painting to FW3 when starting to spend some time in Wusterhausen, and had the past very much on his mind because my guess was right, this was also when he in turn had been given Wilhelmine's memoirs to read in manuscript by FW3
Interesting! Discussing family history with the great nephew? Did they like each other?
Strangely, one option Kloosterhuis does not consider at all is Ferdinand.
Heee. Poor Ferdinand. (Wait, how old was he? ... seven in 1737, hm. Might be just old enough to remember people decades later.)
as per custom when greeting or taking leave the sovereign
And here I thought there was no formal etiquette in the tobacco parliament...
Re: Kloosterhuis: Sehnsuchtsort
Date: 2021-04-13 06:55 am (UTC)*nods* And neither him nor Göse mention Sabrow demonstrated that Gundling as per his autopsy did not actually die of alcoholism. I mean, I'm sure all the drinking didn't help, but the findings were ulcers and a hole in the stomach, notably NOT something to do with the kidneys or a damaged liver. Anyway: Klepper in Der Vater also has Gundling be an alcoholic already when first meeting FW, and I do think that's to lessen FW's responsibility for his fate, but a) Klepper is writing a novel, which b) is based on the state of research at the time, where "Gundling drank himself to death" was still the default assumption. Kloosterhuis and Göse are supposed to write non fiction. But they're so set on rescuing FW from the Frederician context that they're really spin-doctoring as if he was running for chancellor.
Interesting! Discussing family history with the great nephew? Did they like each other?
As far as I recall, not particularly for most of the time. For starters, there was the eternal suspicion of Heinrich power grabbing if you allowed him any political influence, and secondly, FW3 was a Fritz fan and Heinrich's critique of Fritz did not sit well. (There was also the eternal awkwardness about the fact that FW3 was AW's grandson, not Fritz', yet he of course always saw Fritz as the origin of Prussian glory and his spiritual predecessor etc, which made any memorial to AW a problem. Note that FW3 and family were NOT present at the Obelisk inauguration, and of course that Heinrich's 7 Years War memoirs got disappeared out of the State Archive during FW3's time.) Also they disagreed on how to deal with France and Austria. However, during the last four or three years of Heinrich's life, there was some raprochment going on, not least because FW3's wife Luise embarked on a belated cultural self education course and asked Heinrich for reading tips, which he was happy to give. (Ziebura, commenting on his selection of books for Luise, wrily does note he wasn't any more into new German literature than brother Fritz. Alter ego indeed.) This led to FW3 and Luise visiting him and he visiting them.
Now Kloosterhuis does give the impression that FW3 gave Heinrich the memoirs manuscript in order to verify whether this could actually be truly by Wilhelmine, whereas from Ziebura I got the impression FW3 simply wanted to share the sensational finding news. (Bear in mind the memoirs would only be published years after Heinrich's death, in 1808; this sharing was strictly on a need to know, confidential family level.)
In any event, the list providing the names for the people depicted in the Tobacco College painting isn't dated, neither the first version nor the correction by the Second Writer, so even the assumption that the revision happened in 1799 and not years earlier is a guess at Kloosterhuis' part. (It can't have happened later because the list is mentioned along with the gift of the painting to FW3.) It does make psychological sense, though; Heinrich had the past on his mind, he knew that at his age he wouldn't have much longer to live, more likely than not, and he was the methodical type, so handing over the painting with a "who is who" would be the thing to do.
And here I thought there was no formal etiquette in the tobacco parliament...
Not between adults, to be fair. (FW had ordered he was only to be adressed as "Colonel", not "Sire" or with any other title while there.) Children are another matter. ;)