Voltaire's death: Huh! I cross-referenced it with Orieux and I guess that (although Orieux has a number of choice words for Mme Denis), the only thing Mme Denis actually did that I found super objectionable was not being with Voltaire as he was dying... but it sounds like it was actually Voltaire who didn't want her there (though she did seem to hide Voltaire's and Wagniere's letters from each other, which... wasn't great, though I see how Voltaire changing his will would have been pretty awful for her).
Usually they tend to either err in the bashing or in the blending out of vices direction, if they aren't so afraid of romantisizing that they're so ultra dry so they can't be possibly accused of being entertaining.
Yes!! I love that Orieux can hold the virtues and vices in his head at the same time, and it's honestly a lot more interesting that way (as I keep saying negatively about other biographies :P )
when Voltaire is holidaying with Fritz in Prussia, that between the two of them - Voltaire and Émilie, not Fritz and Émilie - she was the more committed lover
My reaction: ...but Fritz certainly can't quit Voltaire, dunno if that counts as committed... :D
an additional factor was that Voltaire calling Émilie's opponents "knaves" certainly carries the implication that he thinks they're cheating, and for a commoner to accuse noblemen (and -women) of cheating is certainly a potential case of HOW DARE YOU INTO THE BASTILLE WITH YOU!
Oh, yeah, I definitely got that implication from both the Orieux and the Zinsser (though it was a bit more subtle in Orieux and for that I was glad I'd read Zinsser first). But I did not remember from Zinsser that she'd lost large sums -- was it Zinsser or Bodaris who made her sound like a super card shark?
=> Conclusion: Orieux might not have known himself how Frederdorf's name was spelled, and gave a wrong version in his book, which the English translator promptly used as well. Whereas the German translator either counterchecked or actually knew some stuff about Fritz beforehand, including the correct version of Fredersdorf's name.
(Backup for this theory: in the German version of Voltaire's memoirs, Fredersdorf's name is spelled correctly all the way through, very much as opposed to the original French or the English translation.)
! Well, that makes total sense if the original French is also misspelled! Hee. I am thinking that if mildred ever tackles French, I should ask her to make me a copy to read it in French (though there's no way I could keep up with her in French, I wouldn't even have been able to keep up with her at my English reading pace!)
ahhhhhh you are perhaps the first person I have ever met (over the internet or otherwise) besides Awesome French Teacher who has read King of Paris, and I love that you also love it! :D I love that book so much, and like you say I love that Catherine gets to be her own character too <3 (also: Poor Catherine!) I'm sorry to hear Voltaire! Voltaire! isn't as entertaining, sigh. I might still read it to get his take on Rousseau, but I won't go into it with super-high expectations, which is probably a good thing :)
Madame Denis: Yes to both, i.e. hiding letters because she was afraid Voltaire might change his will wasn't good, and he was rightfully angry about it, but at the same time, if he had disinherited her she'd have been without income, and the chances for a middle-aged woman without money to support herself in that era were pretty thin. Also, given that one of the last things he said before dying was asking someone to take care of her, he seems to have forgiven her.
My reaction: ...but Fritz certainly can't quit Voltaire, dunno if that counts as committed...
To be sure, but like I said, Orieux' point was that Voltaire wasn't as committed to Émilie as she was to him in 1743!
was it Zinsser or Bodaris who made her sound like a super card shark?
Bodanis! Though to be fair, he says this of Émilie in her early 20s, before she ever met Voltaire, as a way to finance books. And she may have been a good player early on when her opponents weren't Versailles nobility knowing all the tricks.
ahhhhhh you are perhaps the first person I have ever met (over the internet or otherwise) besides Awesome French Teacher who has read King of Paris, and I love that you also love it!
Us and Orson Welles, who at times wanted to do a film version and of course toyed with the idea of playing at least one of the Alexandres himself. Which, no, Orson. Sure, you could have done a great job, acting-wise, but any member of the Dumas clan other than Catherine needs to be played by a POC actor, and you, Orson, were one of the few people in the film and theatre world of your era who actually worked with POC actors in main roles (see all-black Macbeth, see Faustus with black Mephisto and Helen of Troy) and you did a lot of work with the NACP, so you should have known.
The King of Paris is also why I was thrilled when in the BBC Musketeers series, which had little actual Dumas content left in it but which did have its charms, Porthos was cast with a poc actor and this was not treated as raceblind casting; Porthos' mother in this version was a slave, and slavery comes up now and then in the series. I thought that was a neat nod towards the author, and it was fitting that it was Porthos who personality wise fits with Alexandre père as presented by Guy Endore.
also: Poor Catherine!
No kidding. Endore made the unfairness of Alexandre being the fun parent and overworked Catherine being stuck with the role of strict parent palpable, and it's a good thing that finally, Alexandre fils learns to appreciate her.
To be sure, but like I said, Orieux' point was that Voltaire wasn't as committed to Émilie as she was to him in 1743!
Ah, yes, I totally misparsed that! Thanks :)
And she may have been a good player early on when her opponents weren't Versailles nobility knowing all the tricks.
That... makes a lot of sense.
Us and Orson Welles, who at times wanted to do a film version
Oh! You know, I can really understand wanting to do a film version (which would be fantastic!) and I also kind of understand wanting to play one of the Alexandres (because those would be fantastic roles), but yeah. By which I mean: no. That is very cool about Porthos, though!
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
timeasmymeasure
Re: My reading of Orieux
Date: 2021-04-12 04:52 am (UTC)Usually they tend to either err in the bashing or in the blending out of vices direction, if they aren't so afraid of romantisizing that they're so ultra dry so they can't be possibly accused of being entertaining.
Yes!! I love that Orieux can hold the virtues and vices in his head at the same time, and it's honestly a lot more interesting that way (as I keep saying negatively about other biographies :P )
when Voltaire is holidaying with Fritz in Prussia, that between the two of them - Voltaire and Émilie, not Fritz and Émilie - she was the more committed lover
My reaction: ...but Fritz certainly can't quit Voltaire, dunno if that counts as committed... :D
an additional factor was that Voltaire calling Émilie's opponents "knaves" certainly carries the implication that he thinks they're cheating, and for a commoner to accuse noblemen (and -women) of cheating is certainly a potential case of HOW DARE YOU INTO THE BASTILLE WITH YOU!
Oh, yeah, I definitely got that implication from both the Orieux and the Zinsser (though it was a bit more subtle in Orieux and for that I was glad I'd read Zinsser first). But I did not remember from Zinsser that she'd lost large sums -- was it Zinsser or Bodaris who made her sound like a super card shark?
=> Conclusion: Orieux might not have known himself how Frederdorf's name was spelled, and gave a wrong version in his book, which the English translator promptly used as well. Whereas the German translator either counterchecked or actually knew some stuff about Fritz beforehand, including the correct version of Fredersdorf's name.
(Backup for this theory: in the German version of Voltaire's memoirs, Fredersdorf's name is spelled correctly all the way through, very much as opposed to the original French or the English translation.)
! Well, that makes total sense if the original French is also misspelled! Hee. I am thinking that if mildred ever tackles French, I should ask her to make me a copy to read it in French (though there's no way I could keep up with her in French, I wouldn't even have been able to keep up with her at my English reading pace!)
ahhhhhh you are perhaps the first person I have ever met (over the internet or otherwise) besides Awesome French Teacher who has read King of Paris, and I love that you also love it! :D I love that book so much, and like you say I love that Catherine gets to be her own character too <3 (also: Poor Catherine!) I'm sorry to hear Voltaire! Voltaire! isn't as entertaining, sigh. I might still read it to get his take on Rousseau, but I won't go into it with super-high expectations, which is probably a good thing :)
Re: My reading of Orieux
Date: 2021-04-12 05:55 am (UTC)My reaction: ...but Fritz certainly can't quit Voltaire, dunno if that counts as committed...
To be sure, but like I said, Orieux' point was that Voltaire wasn't as committed to Émilie as she was to him in 1743!
was it Zinsser or Bodaris who made her sound like a super card shark?
Bodanis! Though to be fair, he says this of Émilie in her early 20s, before she ever met Voltaire, as a way to finance books. And she may have been a good player early on when her opponents weren't Versailles nobility knowing all the tricks.
ahhhhhh you are perhaps the first person I have ever met (over the internet or otherwise) besides Awesome French Teacher who has read King of Paris, and I love that you also love it!
Us and Orson Welles, who at times wanted to do a film version and of course toyed with the idea of playing at least one of the Alexandres himself. Which, no, Orson. Sure, you could have done a great job, acting-wise, but any member of the Dumas clan other than Catherine needs to be played by a POC actor, and you, Orson, were one of the few people in the film and theatre world of your era who actually worked with POC actors in main roles (see all-black Macbeth, see Faustus with black Mephisto and Helen of Troy) and you did a lot of work with the NACP, so you should have known.
The King of Paris is also why I was thrilled when in the BBC Musketeers series, which had little actual Dumas content left in it but which did have its charms, Porthos was cast with a poc actor and this was not treated as raceblind casting; Porthos' mother in this version was a slave, and slavery comes up now and then in the series. I thought that was a neat nod towards the author, and it was fitting that it was Porthos who personality wise fits with Alexandre père as presented by Guy Endore.
also: Poor Catherine!
No kidding. Endore made the unfairness of Alexandre being the fun parent and overworked Catherine being stuck with the role of strict parent palpable, and it's a good thing that finally, Alexandre fils learns to appreciate her.
Re: My reading of Orieux
Date: 2021-04-16 04:38 am (UTC)Ah, yes, I totally misparsed that! Thanks :)
And she may have been a good player early on when her opponents weren't Versailles nobility knowing all the tricks.
That... makes a lot of sense.
Us and Orson Welles, who at times wanted to do a film version
Oh! You know, I can really understand wanting to do a film version (which would be fantastic!) and I also kind of understand wanting to play one of the Alexandres (because those would be fantastic roles), but yeah. By which I mean: no. That is very cool about Porthos, though!