I read a bit more about Knobelsdorff, mostly descendant Wilhelm von Knobelsdorff's (WvK) 1860 bio. He has a lot of conjecture and really doesn't approve of Knobelsdorff's relationship with Charlotte Schöne (sigh), but he seems to have checked some primary sources and also reminded me of a couple of things.
According to him, Knobelsdorff was stationed in Küstrin - in 1714. But then he went to war and after the war he was stationed in various places, particularly in Fürstenwalde in 1728 and then in Berlin proper from April 1729 on, and then he left the military in June with a final promotion to captain. (He footnotes Geheime Kriegskanzlei for all of these, so I'm inclined to think they are reliable.) Therefore, WvK says, Knobelsdorff meeting Fritz at Küstrin is a legend, but he also has his own theory: They already met in 1729 in Berlin! But there's no proof of course. (Which he acknowledges but then he keeps talking about it like it's fact anyways. It isn't entirely impossible I guess, especially if Knobelsdorff met Pesne in 1729, but, well. No proof at all.)
No mention of FW facilitating a Knobelsdorff/Fritz meeting either, but not only did Knobelsdorff paint FW in 1737, Fritz is quite deferential in a letter to FW regarding Knobelsdorff and where he is supposed to be, see May 1737: I also humbly report to my most gracious father that Captain Knobelsdorff has arrived here again. I will keep him here until I hear my most gracious father's order about him. He told me a lot about Italy, where he was with a certain Count Firmond. In Florence he broke his arm on the way back, which was to blame for his long absence. (Read: His long absence had nothing to do at all with any secret missions related to hiring Italian opera singers for me, no way. ... that said, I'm still not quite clear on what Fritz would have done with them in 1737, if Knobelsdorff had managed to poach any.)
Something I was reminded of: Fritz asked Knobelsdorff to take care of Keyserlingk's daughter in 1745, together with Countess Camas. Also, Bielfeld's description of him as "common sense [bon sens] personified". Which is what Fritz praises Countess Camas for as well, so he appointed two common sense people to look after Keyserlingk's daughter, which I find interesting.
(Lehndorff: And yet!)
Also, Knobelsdorff's Tiergarten property went through several hands after his death, but in 1785 Ferdinand bought it and built Bellevue there.
Probably only interesting to me (although I'm curious if Selena knows the expression as well): there's a German expression, "bis in die Puppen aufbleiben/schlafen", which means staying up/sleeping late, i.e. very long. Apparently, that expression hails from the Tiergarten, where Knobelsdorff built a rondel with lots of statues - dubbed "dolls" (Puppen) by the people - at the far end (today Großer Stern), which took a long time to get to from the city (so far out that it's not even on the 1748 plan). The more you know.
Knobelsdorff painted two portraits (that we know of) of his life partner Sophie Charlotte Schöne - one is here - and they had two daughters, Charlotte Sophie (* 12.01.1748) and Caroline Juliane (* 12.12.1751). Poor kids lost their father really young, even younger than Peter's. :(
Which brings me to the question: Does WvK mention Peter? Kind of! He clearly doesn't know who he is or where he belongs, but he does mention Lt.Col. Keith in two different contexts:
1. Being Knobelsdorff's successor in charge of the Tiergarten, which is where he calls him an "Englishman" and guesses that's why he got the job. (Which, funny enough, still kind of works with Selena's theory re: Hyde Park.) He refers to Raumer for his Tiergarten info, though, so nothing new here.
2. He doesn't seem to have had access to Knobelsdorff's will, speculating about it, but he apparently had some later documents referring to it. At least, he says that "his Rheinsberg friends, General v. Buddenbrock and Oberlieutenant von Keith, become executors of the will and the first one also guardian for the children". He seems to have had a 1767 source for this - which is when the two daughters sold the Kronenstrasse house they'd inherited, which is documented at the state archive (Engel mentions it) - and he does mention that Keith was dead at that point. He also says that the executors of the will made a deal with Knobelsdorff's brother, who got some additional money and in turn agreed to not contest the will.
Finally, WvK includes an appendix with three documents: two of Knoblesdorff's letters to Fritz from Italy (in German!) based on copies at the state archive, and his last letter to him regarding the status of his daughters (in French) based on the original at the state archive.
Excerpt from an Italy letter, January 27th, 1737, written in Rome, an example of Knobelsdorff having opinions:
Regarding the antiques, one can see clearly how much the Greeks surpassed the Romans in this art, and how much the current Romans are even below their ancestors. Regarding the buildings, it's the same and it's only a pity that the first Christian Emperor Constantine the Great didn't have the same enthusiasm for the sciences as he did for religion, and therefore had all the pagan temples destroyed to build bad and lousy churches for the true God out of the excellent debris. One has to wonder how, at the rising of the light of faith, the understanding in all other sciences fell into such darkness that it hasn't really recovered with the Italians to this day. [...] the number of the truly learned is small compared to their admirable predecessors, who showed them a straight path to perfection, and so this path will hardly be found, since all scriptures are banned in which sound reason shines even a little, the human mind is locked into narrow rules, and the right philosophy is thought of as atheism.
I have to say, it's almost like hearing Fritz talk to Wilhelmine here, almost twenty years later. Kind of makes me wonder how much Knobelsdorff influenced his view on current day Italy, although he also had Algarotti of course. (Who in turn had his own correspondence with Knobelsdorff.) Knobelsdorff also reports on opera and religious events he witnessed, and he sends Fritz two landscape sketches. The other Italy letter is from March, written in Venice, and he reports his broken elbow (ouch!) and that he didn't have much luck poaching Italian opera singers for Fritz ("Ich bin chagrin" - aw).
The last letter, written ten days before his death:
Sire, I feel the last moments of my life approaching, and I take advantage of a break in the pain to express the feelings of gratitude with which I have been filled due to all the benefits and kindnesses Your Majesty showered on me during my life. These same kindnesses give me the confidence that Y.M. will grant me confirmation of the disposition I made in favor of two children whose existence I caused. This grace will give me consolation during the last moments of my life, which this old servant will use to wish for the reign of Your Majesty to be as long as it is glorious.
As far as I know, Fritz granted the petition, recognizing the two daughters as Knobelsdorff's heirs (without the nobility rights, though!), but I'm not sure if he did it quickly enough for Knobelsdorff to learn about it, since the official document is from November. But maybe he promised him in time - as I've mentioned, Fritz' letters to Knobelsdorff seem to be gone.
Finally, one little exchange that did survive, from May 1748, is a small dispute regarding some bills for the marble gallery at the Potsdam Town Palace (again in German), which is at Trier (partly) and reported by Seidel among others. It's mostly interesting because one letter is from Knobelsdorff to Fredersdorf, asking for "WTF is going on?" intel on the letter Fritz wrote him and calling Fredersdorf "verehrtester Freund", which reminded me that they were freemasons together.
If Knobelsdorff actually served at Küstrin at some point in his military career, even if it was many years pre Fritz, I can see how the rumor got started and Manger got confused.
I'm still not quite clear on what Fritz would have done with them in 1737, if Knobelsdorff had managed to poach any
Well, in 1737, he was in Rheinsberg happily collecting an orchestra and having concerts. He and Wilhelmine keep mentioning this musician or that or such and such being outstanding (or especially annoying) in their letters around that time. Now, of course he didn't have an opera to let the singers perform in yet, but that wasn't necessary for a patron to hire singers for. He could have let them sing for himself and his guests, concert performances. (Which was how Elisabeth Gertrud Schmeling Mara always performed for him much later, for example, when he did have a Knobelsdorff-build opera for her to perform in (which she also did, but additionally there were Fritz-specific concerts).
Btw, I'm not surprised Knobelsdorff didn't get any. A) budget, and b) if you were an Italian singer in 1737, would you dare to travel to FW's Prussia?
Fritz asked Knobelsdorff to take care of Keyserlingk's daughter in 1745, together with Countess Camas. Also, Bielfeld's description of him as "common sense [bon sens] personified". Which is what Fritz praises Countess Camas for as well, so he appointed two common sense people to look after Keyserlingk's daughter, which I find interesting.
(Lehndorff: And yet!)
LOL. Well, Knobelsdorff wasn't around anymore when Adelaide started running wild, and there was a war going on where most of the adults around her were flirting and dancing with enemy officers and having affairs. BTW, when did Mrs. Keyserlingk die? Because the Fredersdorf letters mention her, but Lehndorff's diary does not. Did she die? I hope Fritz didn't take her daughter from her?
"Puppen" phrase: no, this South German has not heard it.
I have to say, it's almost like hearing Fritz talk to Wilhelmine here, almost twenty years later. Kind of makes me wonder how much Knobelsdorff influenced his view on current day Italy, although he also had Algarotti of course.
It also reminds me of something else: Winckelmann - who had a far more positive attitude towards Italy in general, though - made the same mistake Knobelsdorff makes, to wit: 90% of the statues believed to be Greek originals and thus proving the superiority of Greek sculptors over Roman ones which Winckelmann saw in Italy in the early to mid 18th century were actually, as we now can tell, Roman era copies. (Where Knobelsdorff is unusual is in claiming Greek superiority for buildings as well, especially given that as far as I know he didn't visit Greece, and the Pantheon, which even in the 18th century was available to visit, usually knocks out architect afficiniados the first time they see it. (There's a reason it got so widely copied all over the world.) (Did he make it to Naples? Because the underground water system, which worked from the time of Augustus till the mid 19th century when an earthquake did it in, is another masterpiece of Roman architecture which could be visited even then; I think Wilhelmine saw that as well when she was there.) But yes, otherwise the views very much sound like Fritz' letter to Wilhelmine. Complaining about current day Italy being held back by Catholic superstition is pretty much a trope not just for Protestant Germans; Dickens' notes on Italy a century later contain much about this as well. And there's a reason why Algarotti sought employment elsewhere for a long time. Otoh, it's worth pointing out that Laura Bassi as the first female professor at a European university happened in Bologna centuries before any German state (or Britain, or France) followed suite. And as for art, I remember Wilhelmine liking current day Italian painters (and praising them to Fritz as cheap to acquire), and Algarotti sold August III. a whole gallery of them. (Which ended up stored in Hubertusburg in the 7 Years War and then suffered the fate of the rest of Hubertusburg.)
Generally, the series of tropes:
- Greeks were superior to Romans - Christianity made Romans decline to weak/superstitious/degenerate/negative attribute of choice/Italians - the only thing of worth current day Italy produces is music
- shows up repeatedly in male Protestant Italy visitors (with the notable exception of Goethe) in the era. It's interesting that the female letter and memoirs writing visitors - Anna Amalia, Wilhelmine, Lady Mary, also Sophie in the one half a year trip she took with her husband early in the marriage - have a go at the Catholic processions and the Catholic church as well (in varying degrees of critique), but they aren't at all prone to the "the Greeks were better!" or "current day Italy/Italians are so weak compared to their past!" or "The only good thing current day Italy produces is music" tropes the men go for. Instead, you get a lot of "I live like in a dream", "I'm learning so much!" and "OMG, so much better climate!" in their initial reactions. (I mean, obviously Lady Mary after years of actually living there has more to critisize. But not those tropes.)
It's mostly interesting because one letter is from Knobelsdorff to Fredersdorf, asking for "WTF is going on?" intel on the letter Fritz wrote him and calling Fredersdorf "verehrtester Freund", which reminded me that they were freemasons together.
That is fascinating. (Also argues against Team Claus Back and Martin Stade's fictional Knobelsdorff/Fredersdorf feud in "Der Meister von Sanssouci".)
Btw, I'm not surprised Knobelsdorff didn't get any. A) budget, and b) if you were an Italian singer in 1737, would you dare to travel to FW's Prussia?
Pretty much! While he thought the opera in Florence was "the worst I've heard in Italy", he really liked the one in Venice, tried to engage one of the singers and: I didn't spare any effort to engage him, but [...] there's nothing more difficult than bringing a good castrato into a Protestant country if they aren't forced through money like in England.
Oh, and regarding music in general, opera is one thing, but for the rest of it, well: The local instrumental music has not astonished me and I wish I could let the Romans hear a Ruppin concert.
Did he make it to Naples?
No idea. There's no mention of anything south of Rome.
Given his affinity for nature, he does talk about the weather as well, though, not just the culture, and more favourably: The current season is incomparable: the day lasts eleven hours, the sky is clear and bright most of the time, and when I go hunting with the ambassador from Malta, I have to seek shadow from the sun in forests of bay and myrtle. I drew the two enclosed sketches on such an occasion, which I dare to send, and which show one the flat horizon of the region towards the sea at Ostia, and the other pines and trees in the foreground of the Apennines.
BTW, when did Mrs. Keyserlingk die? Because the Fredersdorf letters mention her, but Lehndorff's diary does not. Did she die? I hope Fritz didn't take her daughter from her?
Fritz apparently got her a position as EC's court lady after Keyserlingk's death, which explains how Countess Camas was supposed to keep an eye on the kid. She did die young, though, in 1755, when Adelaide was only eleven. (And Knobelsdorff was already dead as well. Unlike Countess Camas.)
"Puppen" phrase: no, this South German has not heard it.
Interesting! Did not expect that answer to be honest, because it's such a common phrase in my family/region, which isn't anywhere near Berlin either. I guess the fact that it did belong to Prussia way back when did make a difference!
there's nothing more difficult than bringing a good castrato into a Protestant country if they aren't forced through money like in England.
August the Strong had them in Saxony, though. :) (Yes, Poland is Catholic, but Saxony was then as mainly Protestant as it is now.) Let's face it, if you're willing to pay like House Wettin... anyway, as I recall, the following depressing RL event happened around this time in Dresden and Leipzig: a couple of Leipzig judges heard from a lawyer who wanted their judgment for a hypothetical case. Supposedly a Swedish count named Titius had been wounded in the war with the result that he could not possibly sire children anymore, though he wasn't completely incapable of sexual acts and could "give satisfaction to a woman". Was he therefore entitled to a legal marriage towards hypothetical lady Lucretia, provided all this had been explained to her? The judges said he was, whereupon the lawyer revealed his client wasn't a Swedish judge but the Castrato singer Sorlisi, performing at the Dresden opera, who wanted to marry a local Saxon girl named Dorothea. At which point the judges said NO WAY THIS IS SO PERVERSE THE ONLY REASON FOR MARRIAGE IS PROCREATION, and the whole affair ended badly for Sorlisi and Dorothea (I don't recall how bad, just that it wasn't good.)
BTW, does the WvK biography anything about whether or not Knobelsdorff despised Versailles and saw the French Revolution coming? (I.e. did the novelist(s) base this on canon or made it up.)
Oh, I hadn't heard about that story before. ... I see that they did actually get married but had to live with the threat of annulment for the rest of their lives, as well as theological and judicial faculties of several states debating their status and sex life as a precedent, pragmatism vs. dogma and all that. Oh, man. :(
BTW, does the WvK biography anything about whether or not Knobelsdorff despised Versailles and saw the French Revolution coming?
No, he has very little about the France trip in general and only refers to Fritz' eulogy as a source for it.
Aw man, that is a terrible story :( Even without felis's addendum, though I guess at least they actually did get married. Poor castratos, seems like their life was tough enough (although I guess they got to be superstar singers) :( But I guess it's sort of vaguely interesting from a sociological viewpoint that "Marriage is for procreation only!! except when it's not, and when it is or isn't totally depends on our squicks" has been a thing for that long.
(Is your icon the guy playing for Pesne in the painting? ETA: I went back and looked and I see that it is! :D )
Re: Castrati, well, some of them got to be superstar singers. In some years up to 400 boys in Italy were castrated in the hope they'd end us singers. Some were filtered out early on because the training was very tough. Others kept trying well into adulthood, and were lucky if they ended up as someone's music teacher or playing the organ in their hometown. The next level were making it into a choir or musical ensemble of some prince (either secular or clerical). Those who actually made it to the top and became international superstars whom operas and princes fought for weren't more than those who manage it today. It has to be said in order to make understandable the parents' risking this for their children (and it's not like that operation could be reversed if things didn't work out!) that this was one of the very few ways you could pre French Revolution Europe be born a peasant and still make it to the top.
Ha, okay, that makes total sense (and your note about how it wasn't more than those who manage it today is well taken -- I suppose that kind of distribution of leave/teach/ensemble/superstar is in a way similar to musicians' lots everywhere, though most don't have to lose body parts for it!) Ugh, all those poor kids!
That's really interesting that those tropes (which, now that you mention it, I am pretty sure I had seen somewhere before salon) show up in male visitors but not in female ones! I would have thought that it would be everyone. Is it that the females don't feel such a need to one-up the current-day Italians, do you think?
and therefore had all the pagan temples destroyed to build bad and lousy churches for the true God out of the excellent debris.
ahahaha, this is great. Like you say, it's like hearing Fritz talk to Wilhelmine!
I feel like that last letter is kind of heartbreaking. Poor Knobelsdorff and his family :(
one letter is from Knobelsdorff to Fredersdorf, asking for "WTF is going on?" intel on the letter Fritz wrote him and calling Fredersdorf "verehrtester Freund", which reminded me that they were freemasons together.
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timeasmymeasure
A bit more Knobelsdorff (and Friends)
Date: 2021-03-31 07:36 pm (UTC)According to him, Knobelsdorff was stationed in Küstrin - in 1714. But then he went to war and after the war he was stationed in various places, particularly in Fürstenwalde in 1728 and then in Berlin proper from April 1729 on, and then he left the military in June with a final promotion to captain. (He footnotes Geheime Kriegskanzlei for all of these, so I'm inclined to think they are reliable.)
Therefore, WvK says, Knobelsdorff meeting Fritz at Küstrin is a legend, but he also has his own theory: They already met in 1729 in Berlin! But there's no proof of course. (Which he acknowledges but then he keeps talking about it like it's fact anyways. It isn't entirely impossible I guess, especially if Knobelsdorff met Pesne in 1729, but, well. No proof at all.)
No mention of FW facilitating a Knobelsdorff/Fritz meeting either, but not only did Knobelsdorff paint FW in 1737, Fritz is quite deferential in a letter to FW regarding Knobelsdorff and where he is supposed to be, see May 1737: I also humbly report to my most gracious father that Captain Knobelsdorff has arrived here again. I will keep him here until I hear my most gracious father's order about him. He told me a lot about Italy, where he was with a certain Count Firmond. In Florence he broke his arm on the way back, which was to blame for his long absence. (Read: His long absence had nothing to do at all with any secret missions related to hiring Italian opera singers for me, no way. ... that said, I'm still not quite clear on what Fritz would have done with them in 1737, if Knobelsdorff had managed to poach any.)
Something I was reminded of: Fritz asked Knobelsdorff to take care of Keyserlingk's daughter in 1745, together with Countess Camas. Also, Bielfeld's description of him as "common sense [bon sens] personified". Which is what Fritz praises Countess Camas for as well, so he appointed two common sense people to look after Keyserlingk's daughter, which I find interesting.
(Lehndorff: And yet!)
Also, Knobelsdorff's Tiergarten property went through several hands after his death, but in 1785 Ferdinand bought it and built Bellevue there.
Probably only interesting to me (although I'm curious if Selena knows the expression as well): there's a German expression, "bis in die Puppen aufbleiben/schlafen", which means staying up/sleeping late, i.e. very long. Apparently, that expression hails from the Tiergarten, where Knobelsdorff built a rondel with lots of statues - dubbed "dolls" (Puppen) by the people - at the far end (today Großer Stern), which took a long time to get to from the city (so far out that it's not even on the 1748 plan). The more you know.
Knobelsdorff painted two portraits (that we know of) of his life partner Sophie Charlotte Schöne - one is here - and they had two daughters, Charlotte Sophie (* 12.01.1748) and Caroline Juliane (* 12.12.1751). Poor kids lost their father really young, even younger than Peter's. :(
Which brings me to the question: Does WvK mention Peter? Kind of! He clearly doesn't know who he is or where he belongs, but he does mention Lt.Col. Keith in two different contexts:
1. Being Knobelsdorff's successor in charge of the Tiergarten, which is where he calls him an "Englishman" and guesses that's why he got the job. (Which, funny enough, still kind of works with Selena's theory re: Hyde Park.) He refers to Raumer for his Tiergarten info, though, so nothing new here.
2. He doesn't seem to have had access to Knobelsdorff's will, speculating about it, but he apparently had some later documents referring to it. At least, he says that "his Rheinsberg friends, General v. Buddenbrock and Oberlieutenant von Keith, become executors of the will and the first one also guardian for the children". He seems to have had a 1767 source for this - which is when the two daughters sold the Kronenstrasse house they'd inherited, which is documented at the state archive (Engel mentions it) - and he does mention that Keith was dead at that point. He also says that the executors of the will made a deal with Knobelsdorff's brother, who got some additional money and in turn agreed to not contest the will.
Finally, WvK includes an appendix with three documents: two of Knoblesdorff's letters to Fritz from Italy (in German!) based on copies at the state archive, and his last letter to him regarding the status of his daughters (in French) based on the original at the state archive.
Excerpt from an Italy letter, January 27th, 1737, written in Rome, an example of Knobelsdorff having opinions:
Regarding the antiques, one can see clearly how much the Greeks surpassed the Romans in this art, and how much the current Romans are even below their ancestors. Regarding the buildings, it's the same and it's only a pity that the first Christian Emperor Constantine the Great didn't have the same enthusiasm for the sciences as he did for religion, and therefore had all the pagan temples destroyed to build bad and lousy churches for the true God out of the excellent debris.
One has to wonder how, at the rising of the light of faith, the understanding in all other sciences fell into such darkness that it hasn't really recovered with the Italians to this day. [...] the number of the truly learned is small compared to their admirable predecessors, who showed them a straight path to perfection, and so this path will hardly be found, since all scriptures are banned in which sound reason shines even a little, the human mind is locked into narrow rules, and the right philosophy is thought of as atheism.
I have to say, it's almost like hearing Fritz talk to Wilhelmine here, almost twenty years later. Kind of makes me wonder how much Knobelsdorff influenced his view on current day Italy, although he also had Algarotti of course. (Who in turn had his own correspondence with Knobelsdorff.)
Knobelsdorff also reports on opera and religious events he witnessed, and he sends Fritz two landscape sketches.
The other Italy letter is from March, written in Venice, and he reports his broken elbow (ouch!) and that he didn't have much luck poaching Italian opera singers for Fritz ("Ich bin chagrin" - aw).
The last letter, written ten days before his death:
Sire, I feel the last moments of my life approaching, and I take advantage of a break in the pain to express the feelings of gratitude with which I have been filled due to all the benefits and kindnesses Your Majesty showered on me during my life. These same kindnesses give me the confidence that Y.M. will grant me confirmation of the disposition I made in favor of two children whose existence I caused. This grace will give me consolation during the last moments of my life, which this old servant will use to wish for the reign of Your Majesty to be as long as it is glorious.
As far as I know, Fritz granted the petition, recognizing the two daughters as Knobelsdorff's heirs (without the nobility rights, though!), but I'm not sure if he did it quickly enough for Knobelsdorff to learn about it, since the official document is from November. But maybe he promised him in time - as I've mentioned, Fritz' letters to Knobelsdorff seem to be gone.
Finally, one little exchange that did survive, from May 1748, is a small dispute regarding some bills for the marble gallery at the Potsdam Town Palace (again in German), which is at Trier (partly) and reported by Seidel among others. It's mostly interesting because one letter is from Knobelsdorff to Fredersdorf, asking for "WTF is going on?" intel on the letter Fritz wrote him and calling Fredersdorf "verehrtester Freund", which reminded me that they were freemasons together.
Re: A bit more Knobelsdorff (and Friends)
Date: 2021-04-01 08:00 am (UTC)I'm still not quite clear on what Fritz would have done with them in 1737, if Knobelsdorff had managed to poach any
Well, in 1737, he was in Rheinsberg happily collecting an orchestra and having concerts. He and Wilhelmine keep mentioning this musician or that or such and such being outstanding (or especially annoying) in their letters around that time. Now, of course he didn't have an opera to let the singers perform in yet, but that wasn't necessary for a patron to hire singers for. He could have let them sing for himself and his guests, concert performances. (Which was how Elisabeth Gertrud Schmeling Mara always performed for him much later, for example, when he did have a Knobelsdorff-build opera for her to perform in (which she also did, but additionally there were Fritz-specific concerts).
Btw, I'm not surprised Knobelsdorff didn't get any. A) budget, and b) if you were an Italian singer in 1737, would you dare to travel to FW's Prussia?
Fritz asked Knobelsdorff to take care of Keyserlingk's daughter in 1745, together with Countess Camas. Also, Bielfeld's description of him as "common sense [bon sens] personified". Which is what Fritz praises Countess Camas for as well, so he appointed two common sense people to look after Keyserlingk's daughter, which I find interesting.
(Lehndorff: And yet!)
LOL. Well, Knobelsdorff wasn't around anymore when Adelaide started running wild, and there was a war going on where most of the adults around her were flirting and dancing with enemy officers and having affairs. BTW, when did Mrs. Keyserlingk die? Because the Fredersdorf letters mention her, but Lehndorff's diary does not. Did she die? I hope Fritz didn't take her daughter from her?
"Puppen" phrase: no, this South German has not heard it.
I have to say, it's almost like hearing Fritz talk to Wilhelmine here, almost twenty years later. Kind of makes me wonder how much Knobelsdorff influenced his view on current day Italy, although he also had Algarotti of course.
It also reminds me of something else: Winckelmann - who had a far more positive attitude towards Italy in general, though - made the same mistake Knobelsdorff makes, to wit: 90% of the statues believed to be Greek originals and thus proving the superiority of Greek sculptors over Roman ones which Winckelmann saw in Italy in the early to mid 18th century were actually, as we now can tell, Roman era copies. (Where Knobelsdorff is unusual is in claiming Greek superiority for buildings as well, especially given that as far as I know he didn't visit Greece, and the Pantheon, which even in the 18th century was available to visit, usually knocks out architect afficiniados the first time they see it. (There's a reason it got so widely copied all over the world.) (Did he make it to Naples? Because the underground water system, which worked from the time of Augustus till the mid 19th century when an earthquake did it in, is another masterpiece of Roman architecture which could be visited even then; I think Wilhelmine saw that as well when she was there.) But yes, otherwise the views very much sound like Fritz' letter to Wilhelmine. Complaining about current day Italy being held back by Catholic superstition is pretty much a trope not just for Protestant Germans; Dickens' notes on Italy a century later contain much about this as well. And there's a reason why Algarotti sought employment elsewhere for a long time. Otoh, it's worth pointing out that Laura Bassi as the first female professor at a European university happened in Bologna centuries before any German state (or Britain, or France) followed suite. And as for art, I remember Wilhelmine liking current day Italian painters (and praising them to Fritz as cheap to acquire), and Algarotti sold August III. a whole gallery of them. (Which ended up stored in Hubertusburg in the 7 Years War and then suffered the fate of the rest of Hubertusburg.)
Generally, the series of tropes:
- Greeks were superior to Romans
- Christianity made Romans decline to weak/superstitious/degenerate/negative attribute of choice/Italians
- the only thing of worth current day Italy produces is music
- shows up repeatedly in male Protestant Italy visitors (with the notable exception of Goethe) in the era. It's interesting that the female letter and memoirs writing visitors - Anna Amalia, Wilhelmine, Lady Mary, also Sophie in the one half a year trip she took with her husband early in the marriage - have a go at the Catholic processions and the Catholic church as well (in varying degrees of critique), but they aren't at all prone to the "the Greeks were better!" or "current day Italy/Italians are so weak compared to their past!" or "The only good thing current day Italy produces is music" tropes the men go for. Instead, you get a lot of "I live like in a dream", "I'm learning so much!" and "OMG, so much better climate!" in their initial reactions. (I mean, obviously Lady Mary after years of actually living there has more to critisize. But not those tropes.)
It's mostly interesting because one letter is from Knobelsdorff to Fredersdorf, asking for "WTF is going on?" intel on the letter Fritz wrote him and calling Fredersdorf "verehrtester Freund", which reminded me that they were freemasons together.
That is fascinating. (Also argues against Team Claus Back and Martin Stade's fictional Knobelsdorff/Fredersdorf feud in "Der Meister von Sanssouci".)
Re: A bit more Knobelsdorff (and Friends)
Date: 2021-04-01 12:55 pm (UTC)Pretty much! While he thought the opera in Florence was "the worst I've heard in Italy", he really liked the one in Venice, tried to engage one of the singers and: I didn't spare any effort to engage him, but [...] there's nothing more difficult than bringing a good castrato into a Protestant country if they aren't forced through money like in England.
Oh, and regarding music in general, opera is one thing, but for the rest of it, well: The local instrumental music has not astonished me and I wish I could let the Romans hear a Ruppin concert.
Did he make it to Naples?
No idea. There's no mention of anything south of Rome.
Given his affinity for nature, he does talk about the weather as well, though, not just the culture, and more favourably: The current season is incomparable: the day lasts eleven hours, the sky is clear and bright most of the time, and when I go hunting with the ambassador from Malta, I have to seek shadow from the sun in forests of bay and myrtle. I drew the two enclosed sketches on such an occasion, which I dare to send, and which show one the flat horizon of the region towards the sea at Ostia, and the other pines and trees in the foreground of the Apennines.
BTW, when did Mrs. Keyserlingk die? Because the Fredersdorf letters mention her, but Lehndorff's diary does not. Did she die? I hope Fritz didn't take her daughter from her?
Fritz apparently got her a position as EC's court lady after Keyserlingk's death, which explains how Countess Camas was supposed to keep an eye on the kid. She did die young, though, in 1755, when Adelaide was only eleven. (And Knobelsdorff was already dead as well. Unlike Countess Camas.)
"Puppen" phrase: no, this South German has not heard it.
Interesting! Did not expect that answer to be honest, because it's such a common phrase in my family/region, which isn't anywhere near Berlin either. I guess the fact that it did belong to Prussia way back when did make a difference!
Re: A bit more Knobelsdorff (and Friends)
Date: 2021-04-02 10:03 am (UTC)August the Strong had them in Saxony, though. :) (Yes, Poland is Catholic, but Saxony was then as mainly Protestant as it is now.) Let's face it, if you're willing to pay like House Wettin... anyway, as I recall, the following depressing RL event happened around this time in Dresden and Leipzig: a couple of Leipzig judges heard from a lawyer who wanted their judgment for a hypothetical case. Supposedly a Swedish count named Titius had been wounded in the war with the result that he could not possibly sire children anymore, though he wasn't completely incapable of sexual acts and could "give satisfaction to a woman". Was he therefore entitled to a legal marriage towards hypothetical lady Lucretia, provided all this had been explained to her? The judges said he was, whereupon the lawyer revealed his client wasn't a Swedish judge but the Castrato singer Sorlisi, performing at the Dresden opera, who wanted to marry a local Saxon girl named Dorothea. At which point the judges said NO WAY THIS IS SO PERVERSE THE ONLY REASON FOR MARRIAGE IS PROCREATION, and the whole affair ended badly for Sorlisi and Dorothea (I don't recall how bad, just that it wasn't good.)
BTW, does the WvK biography anything about whether or not Knobelsdorff despised Versailles and saw the French Revolution coming? (I.e. did the novelist(s) base this on canon or made it up.)
Re: A bit more Knobelsdorff (and Friends)
Date: 2021-04-02 06:41 pm (UTC)BTW, does the WvK biography anything about whether or not Knobelsdorff despised Versailles and saw the French Revolution coming?
No, he has very little about the France trip in general and only refers to Fritz' eulogy as a source for it.
Re: A bit more Knobelsdorff (and Friends)
Date: 2021-04-07 05:11 am (UTC)(Is your icon the guy playing for Pesne in the painting? ETA: I went back and looked and I see that it is! :D )
Re: A bit more Knobelsdorff (and Friends)
Date: 2021-04-07 04:48 pm (UTC)Icon: yes, see also here for more.
Re: A bit more Knobelsdorff (and Friends)
Date: 2021-04-10 05:28 am (UTC)Re: A bit more Knobelsdorff (and Friends)
Date: 2021-04-07 05:07 am (UTC)Re: A bit more Knobelsdorff (and Friends)
Date: 2021-04-07 05:04 am (UTC)ahahaha, this is great. Like you say, it's like hearing Fritz talk to Wilhelmine!
I feel like that last letter is kind of heartbreaking. Poor Knobelsdorff and his family :(
one letter is from Knobelsdorff to Fredersdorf, asking for "WTF is going on?" intel on the letter Fritz wrote him and calling Fredersdorf "verehrtester Freund", which reminded me that they were freemasons together.
Okay, this is really cool. Aww!