Have finally finished the reread of the Suhm letters.
1. I found entirely endearing this part where Fritz sends Suhm an ode (because of course he does; I'm only surprised he didn't send more), and Suhm replies firstly that he loved it and not just because Fritz wrote it (but I suspect only because Fritz wrote it :P), and secondly that he doesn't write poetry but wants to send Fritz some poetry in return for his nice ode. So he, Suhm, is borrowing some poetry for the purpose and enclosing it, but he won't lie and pretend it's his.
But also, he writes, "I will not deceive you by giving them to you as my own, as the Latin Poet formerly deceived the Augustus of his time."
Which Latin poet? Do you know, selenak? It might ring a bell if you tell me, but I'm not recalling any Augustan poetry plagiarism scandals off the top of my head.
Also, I notice Suhm is casting Fritz as Augustus here.
2. I was right about Suhm getting a cut from the fundraising! Not until 1739, so two years into it. And I was wrong about the ring; that was a simple gift with Fritz's portrait in 1740, but in 1739, Fritz tells Suhm he can take a 10% cut, and Suhm seems pleased.
3. There's a 6-month gap in their correspondence in the spring and summer of 1738. Suhm apparently wrote a very long letter explaining in detail why he was so busy, which the 1787 editor says he cut out (in general, he says he cuts out a lot whenever Suhm starts to get boring), and since Trier has nothing that the 1787 translation doesn't, apparently Preuss silently cut too!
(Carlyle complains about the letters being boring, though I don't know what edition he might be referring to.)
4. Suhm joins the ranks of people who can't do vivid pen portraits when he depicts Duke Anton Ulrich, whom he portrays in generically positive terms. The only detail that was interesting to me is that Anton has read all of Wolff's works more than once, which "have, without doubt, a little contributed to form his mind, and strengthen his character." My reaction was: read all the philosophy you can now, Anton, you're going to need it!
Oh! cahn, Anton Ulrich is EC's brother who marries into the Russian royal family (Anna Leopoldovna, who had an affair with Saxon envoy Lynar), fathers Ivan VI, ends up imprisoned with his family in remote Russia, and refuses to leave his daughters even when he's given the chance. It was in 1739 that he married Anna, which is why Suhm is doing the pen portrait now: he's telling Fritz what he thinks of his brother-in-law (whom Fritz will later recommend be locked away in the remotest corners of the world).
So I hope all that Wolffian philosophy was helpful!
5. In February 1740, Fritz tells Suhm he's awaiting the events that will allow him to summon Suhm and "perform promises." This makes sense of Suhm's decision to take for granted in June that Fritz wants him and submit his resignation without waiting for a formal invitation.
Also, Fritz is apparently still unsure that it's reciprocated, because his next sentence is: "I hope you are always in the same sentiments in which I have known you, and that you have not forgotten the agreement made the night of our separation." That's why, when he *doesn't* hear anything from Suhm on the subject in June, he gets worried.
This is also when he sends the ring with his portrait to Suhm.
6. Apparently Suhm was in Warsaw not just on his route back, but because he was required to report there for his formal, in-person removal as envoy. But by the time he got there, was so sick that he was exempted from making an appearance at court. :/
7. Remember how the Hohenzollerns didn't use regnal numbers, and so everyone was confused by Friedrich Wilhelm? And that's how Fritz ended up being called Friedrich III, with FW as F2? 1787 editor has him as William I!
8. The editor omits two of the last letters Suhm ever wrote and Fritz's replies, when he's on his way from St. Petersburg. Thank goodness for Preuss!
9. Suhm's last letter but one congratulates Fritz on the death of Charles VI 8 days before:
The warm interest which I take, Sire, in the splendour and felicity of a reign which you promise to your dear subjects, does not permit me to speak of that event, without previously felicitating your Majesty on these great conjectures which will give you an opportunity of augmenting your glory, by endeavoring to promote the interest and happiness of your states.
The editor footnotes this with an observation that the event is the emperor's death, and the conjectures without doubt refer to the claims to Silesia that Fritz is now going to advance.
I thought that was interesting *before* this morning's salon, when we found hints that Suhm's politics might leaned in the anti-Imperial direction. Putting these two together, I'm now even more convinced!
So apparently Suhm, who in his 1740 character portrait said that Fritz cared more about fame than anything, and who in the 1720s was apparently trying to reconcile FW with G2 and may or may not have been hanging around with the English envoy Dubourgay, is now saying that Charles' death will be a great opportunity for Fritz to achieve glory by advancing the interests of his state.
Yeah, so apparently Suhm would have been 100% behind the Silesian invasion. Since he's leaving Saxon service and becoming a Prussian (and turning his kids into Prussians), making his loyalties pretty darn clear, I'm not *sure* how he would have felt about how Fritz treated Saxony in the first Silesian wars (badly enough that it contributed to Saxony switching sides between the first and second), but since neither anywhere near as bad as the Third Silesian War, Suhm might not have had the Algarotti and Maupertuis experience had he lived. Those two both had the expectation that it was going to be Enlightened Academy Times only, and were twiddling their thumbs and getting increasingly frustrated by the sudden emphasis on war (and in one case, captured by Austrians).
Whereas Suhm might have been in for *some* surprises at how Fritz with absolute power turned out, it seems that he would have been less surprised and disappointed than people who knew him less well (Algarotti, Voltaire, etc.). "Go Fritz, invade Silesia! Greatest of all kings! Free those Protestants! :P"
By 1756, the year of the great Saxony invasion and start of the war crime-ridden exploitative occupation, Suhm would have been 65 and, well, we have to assume *much* better health for him to have made it that long, as opposed to the one year of extra health he would have needed in order to witness the whiplash that much of Europe (but not Manteuffel or Superville!) got from Fritz. But I do have to assume that the bombing of Dresden, whether for strategic motives or just spite, would have been a WTF moment even for Suhm.
Note, though, that all his sons were in the Prussian army, and might well have been involved in the occupation. I guess one hopes that they did live in St. Petersburg during the 1736-1740 period, because then they were born in Prussia, raised in Prussia (because even after Suhm stopped being envoy, he remained on a pension in Berlin, presumably with his family, unless he decided to be extra cautious about FW's hanging tendencies), with at most occasional visits to Dresden, and then spent a few years abroad in Russia, so the transition back to Berlin and then into the Prussian army was hopefully not surprising or unusually traumatic (as opposed to the normal traumas of war).
I mean, going native is a thing for envoys. Hoym, long-time Saxon envoy to France, was accused of it when he returned (and thus his pro-France foreign policy surprises me not at all). For all that Suhm didn't fit in very well with FW, after 10 years in Berlin, he clearly went native as a Prussian (hence choosing to stay in Berlin for 6 years as a private citizen, until he needed money, which can't have all been a desire to stay near a Fritz he barely saw).
Whereas Rottembourg was ambassador to Prussia on 3 separate occasions, because every single time he was like, "I need to get the fuck out of here. I mean totally for health reasons! Please recall me before I strangle FW and cause an international incident to a better climate!" :P
So German, Russian, and English Wikipedia agree on Anna/Lynar and that Lynar was married to Julia Mengden, Anna's lady in waiting and royal favorite. Then they diverge.
English wiki:
Anna's love life took up much time, as the bisexual Anna was involved simultaneously in what were described as "passionate" affairs with the Saxon ambassador Count Moritz zu Lynar and her lady-in-waiting Mengden. Anna's husband did his best to ignore the affairs. After becoming regent, Anton was marginalised, being forced to sleep in another palace while Anna took either Lynar, Mengden or both to bed with her. At times the grand duke would appear to complain about being "cuckolded", but he was always sent away. At one point, Anna proposed to have Lynar marry Mengden in order to unite the two people closest to her in the world together.
German wiki: Anna encouraged the affair of Lynar with Mengden because it gave Anna a cover story to spend time with her lady-in-waiting's husband.
Russian wiki: Mengden/Anton Ulrich! Also, "intriguingly, Julia Mengden facilitated Anna's affair with Lynar by providing her rooms for their affairs." (No mention of threesomes, presumably because Russia officially doesn't have people attracted to the same sex in their country.)
Again, Anton Ulrich, I say: I hope all that philosophy helps! [ETA: Oh, it should go without saying that I'm headcanoning English wiki, because it at least cites modern French, I don't trust the Russian wiki not to be explicitly homophobic, and while Mengden may have been getting it on with both the regent and her husband, that may also have been a story that was made up during homophobic times.]
Also, another unhappy marriage by a Brunswick to a foreign royal who ignored them to spend time with their same-sex favorites (although also opposite-sex in Anna's case, which is possibly related to how they managed to produce a bunch of kids).
...Makes me rethink what life in prison together must have been like. :/
Ooh, the Julia Mengden wiki page article tells me she voluntarily followed Anna Leopoldovna to prison, but when the family was sent to remote Russia in 1744, Mengden was left behind in the old prison. :( At least Catherine let her go when she became Tsarina in 1762 (as not being remotely a threat, I assume).
Also, dang, apparently I had misremembered the details of Lynar! He actually did make it to St. Petersburg in time to replace Suhm and enjoy being the regent's lover, then in 1741 he was traveling back to Saxony to ask permission to leave Saxon service and enter Russian service. (!!) He made it to Dresden, got permission, and he was on his way back when Elizaveta's coup happened. And then the Saxons asked the Russians if they still wanted Lynar, they said no, and so the Saxons kept Lynar in Dresden and Königsberg. Lynar apparently hated Russia for the rest of his life. Given what happened to his lover, I can believe it!
Wow, this is amazing.
1740: Saxon envoy to Russia Suhm requests permission to leave Saxon service so he can be with his royal love. The Saxons grant it. On his way there, he dies.
1741: Saxon envoy to Russia Lynar requests permission to leave Saxon service so he can be with his royal love. The Saxons grant it. On his way there, he finds out his lover has been taken prisoner. They never see each other again.
One, August III is really chill! Can you imagine if two successive Fritzian envoys wanted to leave his service to be with their royal love? Don't worry, August, you'll get your revenge in the 1750s when thousands of conscripted Saxons desert Fritz's service en masse! A Pyrrhic victory, but still.
As a dedicated watcher to Sachsens Glanz und Preußens Gloria, the reply to the second question is simple: Saxons are the sexiest! They have practice, what with Saxon politics always involving lots of affairs, and so no one can resist them! Only Swiss spies are as sexy and irrestable.
August III.: I just want everyone to be happy and get along.
His very ambitious ministers duking it out: We don't.
Don't worry, August, you'll get your revenge in the 1750s when thousands of conscripted Saxons desert Fritz's service en masse! A Pyrrhic victory, but still.
Loooong before that, sexy Italian Algarotti deserts Fritz for the fleshpots of Saxony in 1741. :)
Sigh about Russian wiki. Yeah, the reason alas is obvious. As for German wiki, I note it's generally more conservative in 18th century articles (see also Lady Mary/Hervey/Algarotti triangle and the different presentations thereof), but that's because it all too often takes its info from copyright free 19th century publications. When they don't, such as when writing about the wild history of the Casanova memoirs and their translations/bowlderizations, this is less of a problem, and of course articles about modern bi or gay people are different.
Poor Anton Ulrich.
the Julia Mengden wiki page article tells me she voluntarily followed Anna Leopoldovna to prison, but when the family was sent to remote Russia in 1744, Mengden was left behind in the old prison. :( At least Catherine let her go when she became Tsarina in 1762 (as not being remotely a threat, I assume).
No one could raise a rebellion in Julia Mengden's name. (The biographies gave me the impression that Catherine's cruelties weren't, as a rule, pointless. But woe to you if you were in any way a possible candidate for the throne, no matter how unlikely, given she's someone with absolutely zero blood right on it and knows by personal example that coup staging can be done.) Back to Julia Mengden, though; her going with Anna initially does make it sound like true love.
Oh, and if we're listing Saxon envoys to Russia and royal loves - may I remind you who also was one? Poniatowski, after he couldn't be Charles Hanbury-Williams Legetation secretary anymore.
In conclusion, Saxon envoys clearly are the sexiest.
Algarotti: Let me put in a good words for British envoys, since one of them was the tastiest dish to me.....
As a dedicated watcher to Sachsens Glanz und Preußens Gloria, the reply to the second question is simple: Saxons are the sexiest!
LOL, of course!
Loooong before that, sexy Italian Algarotti deserts Fritz for the fleshpots of Saxony in 1741. :)
Of course, I'd forgotten!
. Yeah, the reason alas is obvious. As for German wiki, I note it's generally more conservative in 18th century articles...but that's because it all too often takes its info from copyright free 19th century publications.
Yes, I hadn't made the connection, but I constantly notice when reading about minor 18th century figures that it's always an online 19th century biographical dictionary, so yes, this makes perfect sense.
The English article is based on a French work from 2000 whose title doesn't sound especially scholarly but is at least modern!
No one could raise a rebellion in Julia Mengden's name.
Exactly.
Back to Julia Mengden, though; her going with Anna initially does make it sound like true love.
That's what I thought!
may I remind you who also was one? Poniatowski, after he couldn't be Charles Hanbury-Williams Legetation secretary anymore.
Oh, duh, why did I not remember he was an envoy? Clearly we have a pattern here! They are the sexiest, and they are more likely to be loyal to their foreign royal loves than to Saxony. Good thing August is so chill!
Algarotti: Let me put in a good words for British envoys, since one of them was the tastiest dish to me.....
True! We discussed how he may have had sex with Peter Keith (who never got to be an envoy, because Fritz is decidedly *not* chill about his envoys going/having gone native), but concluded probably not with an older and sickly Suhm. Though I'm sure they talked about Fritz, and that may be part of why Algarotti appears in Rheinsberg just three or so months after leaving St. Petersburg! (And then leaves him for the fleshpots of Dresden in 1741 and 1742, lol forever.)
Speaking of sexy Saxons and damaged Prussians, there is a Goethe quote about Lessings Minna von Barnhelm which I can't get quite together again and would need more time to look up that comes to mind here. (Reminder: Minna von Barnhelm is the first German play that deals explicitly with the fallout of the 7 Years War. Minna, our heroine, is a sensible, loving, and yes, sexy Saxon. Tellheim, our hero, is a very damaged stiff necked Prussian who got dishonorably dismissed from the army because he supposedly was corrupt when he really was anything but and gave his utmost to make the occupation better for those Saxons he could help, but his pride won't let him confess the truth and his miserable state to Minna, nor marry her when he can't offer her a future. Of couse, as soon as Minna fakes having lost her estate and money in the war as well, Tellheim immediately proposes again. The happy ending does need a Fritz ex machina, i.e. a letter in which he writes that "my brother" (i.e. Heinrich) has found out the truth about Tellheim and what an honorable and compassionate officer he's been and therefore Tellheim is no longer dishonorably discharged. But by and large the comedy is an ode of sensible sexy Saxons over stiffnecked Prussians who better listen to the Saxons if they know what's good for them, and the Goethe quote is about the symbolism and Lessing trying to achieve Saxon/Prussian reconciliation via art (and Minna as the most charming of all Saxons) in the play.
Oh, duh, why did I not remember he was an envoy? Clearly we have a pattern here! They are the sexiest, and they are more likely to be loyal to their foreign royal loves than to Saxony. Good thing August is so chill!
Well, he can't really complain about Poniatowiski not doing his bit for the Saxon cause, in that Poniatowski held fiery J'Accuse anti Fritz speeches during his stint as Saxon envoy in St. Petersburg (and will in his memoirs go in great detail about just how dastardly Fritz has behaved towards Saxony (and Poland, of course). Alas, though, he still had to leave. That he didn't champion August III's son(s) on the as Kings of Poland after August died in 1763 is another matter. (All this being said, I dare say that if Poniatowski's emotional priority during his time in Russia started with an S, it was for Sophie, not Saxony.)
We discussed how he may have had sex with Peter Keith (who never got to be an envoy, because Fritz is decidedly *not* chill about his envoys going/having gone native
I'm trying to think about memorable Prussian envoys. One of the numerous Podewils clan wrote some memorable "Hot or not? MT" reports between Silesian wars, but he himself isn't someone I know much in terms of personality of. There's Winterfeldt in terms of bringing home the Westminster Treaty in early 1756, but while Winterfedt was definitely A Personality, I don't think he was an official envoy, that was the Swiss secretary of the last guy, no?
...oh, wait, the other Keith, of course, Lord Marischal, in his capacity as Prussian envoy to Versailles. Definitely a personality, but given that his time as envoy coincides with Kaunitz getting the French to sign on the Diplomatic Revolution, well....
AFAIK, Fritzian envoys tended to complain that they were hamstrung by the micromanaging and being constantly in the dark and having no authority to do anything!
Prussian Count Rothenburg was briefly envoy to Versailles, as I recall. Peter Keith's son was envoy to Turin, but I know nothing about him and have contradictory information even on his first name (I saw some of his correspondence in the archives, though, where he gets named "Peter Karl", which I suspect he's being confused with his father).
I believe there were at least two Prussians named Mardefeld who were envoys to Russia, one under FW and one Fritz. Ah, yes, Wikipedia tells me uncle and nephew. One of them produced this painting of Peter the Great with a black page (who, as I'm now on the alert for, is wearing a silver collar, just like the one in the Fritz and Wilhelmine painting). (Btw, he looks short and is likely not at his adult height yet, but remember that Peter was 6'8"/203 cm, so take that into account. :P)
But yeah, it's hard to even name Prussian envoys off the top of my head. I indeed suspect Fritz's envoys never had a chance to shine because paranoid secretive micromanaging control freak.
Peter the Great with black page - at first I thought, oh, must be Pushkin's great-grandfather, but then I read the description and saw it couldn't have been because Pushkin's great grandfather was already in his 20s at that point. (He was also a fascinating character, check out his wiki entry, who lucked out within the bad luck of being a slave in that he got adopted by Peter, got to study at the university in France sponsored by him, and later was an important figure at Elizaveta's court. Otoh no one knows what became of the boy in the painting, who can't have been him.
Also, since you asked whether RussianFritz would have staged a coup against RussianFW or waited for AW's succession to stage a coup against: I think as a male prince, he wouldn't have had the luxury to wait. Russian FW would have either killed him directly or put him into a monastery. Speaking of which, SD and Wilhelmine would have ended up in nunneries in Siberia, too, as soon as those English marriage arguments got serious. As to whether Russian AW would have survved beyond a successful coup - only in the way poor Ivan and his siblings did, I fear, if he didn't get killed outright or died a few months later of some disease. (Heinrich and Ferdinand survive and stay at court by virtue of being young enough and there not being a Fritz heir around, assuming RussianFritz already has a clue he won't reproduce himself.)
omg this is... poor Anton Ulrich. For many, many reasons :P
which is possibly related to how they managed to produce a bunch of kids
In general I don't think I understand when it's OK to randomly have kids by some other guy and not. For a royal, right out, I get that. But if you're not royal it's OK? (Also see Emilie.)
...Makes me rethink what life in prison together must have been like. :/
which is possibly related to how they managed to produce a bunch of kids
In general I don't think I understand when it's OK to randomly have kids by some other guy and not. For a royal, right out, I get that. But if you're not royal it's OK? (Also see Emilie.)
Sorry, if it wasn't clear, I meant that Anna's marriage to a Brunswick sibling produced a bunch of kids! I.e. Ivan VI and all his siblings who got locked up. Unlike Heinrich and Fritz's marriages, where they not only had no interest in their spouse, they had no interest in the opposite sex, which contributed to the no kids. (As did the trauma. Philippe d'Orléans, Selena is poised to type, managed to produce kids with Liselotte. :P)
As for royals in general, Catherine's supposed to have managed it, but Russia is special. It's hard to tell for sure without a paternity test, though she was clearly doing things that lead to extramarital offspring during her marriage. As we saw for EC2, that was a no-go in Prussia.
As for non-royals, I think a lot depends on the husband. Emilie's husband was supportive of her affairs! Some husbands left the kids to their brother and their brother got the cheating wife locked up in Spandau. *cough* Gundling brothers.
In general, a lot of women's experience historically has depended on whether they had supportive men in their lives or not. I think of my two maternal great-grandmothers, living in the same town in the early 20th century. One (the Mildred after whom this blog is named) got college education, career advice, and bob cuts, and didn't marry until her 30s, when she was the family breadwinner. The other learned to cook and keep house, married in her early teens, produced 15 kids, and never went to school a day in her life or learned to read. Why? Because they had different fathers.
ETA: Also worth clarifying, if it wasn't clear, that Anna Leopoldovna is very much a royal: she's the niece of Anna Ivanovna (she of the ice palace wedding), she was expecting to be named the heir up until the last minute, and instead her 2-month old son was named heir, so now she's the equivalent of queen mother and regent. Does it matter if her husband is the father of the heir, given that the succession right is coming through her and her husband is just some duke? Probably, but not as much as in, say, Prussia. (Or as in Catherine's case, later, when Paul was at pains to prove he was Peter's son and therefore a Romanov by blood.) That said, Ivan VI was conceived a few months after the wedding, and Lynar didn't arrive until he was born, so Ivan is probably Anton's. And most of the rest of the kids were conceived in prison.
Catherine's supposed to have managed it, but Russia is special. It's hard to tell for sure without a paternity test, though she was clearly doing things that lead to extramarital offspring during her marriage.
She also had one more advantage most other royal wives didn't, though it was one that was by no means a guarantee: her fate during her marriage (except for the last six months of same) depended on her husband only secundarily. Mainly, it depended on Elizaveta as the Czarina. And Elizaveta had the problem that the future of the House of Romanov depended on (P)Russian Pete and Catherine producing children, or otherwise locked up Ivan IV. and his elsewhere locked up siblings might have a chance again. Since for the first seven years of the Peter/Catherine marriage there were no children (and likely no sex, or not very much of it), Catherine was downright encouraged to take her first lover (Saltykow, the possible father of Paul); Elizaveta seems to have decided to hell with the Romanov bloodline, even a nominal grandnephew she could raise was better than Ivan & siblings. Of course, she also could have decided that it was Catherine's fault and what Peter needed was a new wife to produce heirs with, but: Peter didn't have illegitimate children (that I know of). Catherine, otoh, once she started to take lovers, had no problem getting repeatedly pregnant. So it must have been pretty clear to Elizaveta where the problem lay, and replacing Catherine as Peter's wife would not solve anything from her perspective.
(Once Elizaveta was dead, Catherine's fate really did depend entirely on Peter until she accomplished her coup, and whether Peter would or would not have gotten rid of her if she hadn't done that has been debated ever since. Not least since her defenders were invested in presenting it as a very real danger. Which, given the precedent of Peter the Great ridding himself of his unloved first wife by putting her into a nunnery without bothering to get her consent, I can see, but of course it's still debatable since we know who ended up locking up whom.)
One and a half generations later, you have Lady Melbourne, mother of William Lamb the future Lord Melbourne who was Victoria's first PM in his old age and the husband of scandalous Lady Caroline Lamb in his youth. Lady Melbourne was one of the most famous Georgian society ladies and salon hostesses, and famously declared that all you owed your husband was exactly one male heir who was undoubtedly his. After that, you were free to do as you pleased as long as you did it with tact and discretion. (Since William was a younger son who only inherited the title due to his older brothers' deaths, no, he was not the son of Lord Melbourne, and he as well as the rest of the family knew it.) Given that aristocratic marriages were mainly (with a very few exceptions) political and business alliances, fair enough. But as Mildred said: it really depended on the husbands. If they decided not to go along with this, or have the open marriage only open in one direction (i.e. theirs), with their wives punished for adultery, that was utterly in their power, and some did. If they wanted to abuse their wives, they could. Let me remind you of Madame de Graffigny again, same generation and social class as Émilie, who got an abusive jerk who beat her instead of a supportive "live and let live" Marquis, and the only thing she was able to do was to beg her father (i.e. another man, and one outranking her husband) for help.
I'm not recalling any Augustan poetry plagiarism scandals off the top of my head.
Me neither.
Suhm joins the ranks of people who can't do vivid pen portraits when he depicts Duke Anton Ulrich, whom he portrays in generically positive terms.
I would say "maybe that's why his letters got cut by editors?" except depressingly I suspect it's more in line with the general policy of editing anyone not Fritz' letters as the editors assume the only interest in these people lies in what reactions they get out of Fritz.
Also, I, too, hope Anton Ulrich got some benefit from Wolff's collected works, poor guy.
Yeah, so apparently Suhm would have been 100% behind the Silesian invasion.
I think if you're not pro-Imperially minded and a member of Fritz' circle, that's almost guaranteed. (Which is why I raised both eyebrows when the novel about Knobelsdorff I've just finished depicted Knobelsdorff as horrified by it. I can buy Knobelsdorff disagreeing with Fritz on a number of issues. (Knobelsdorff would notoriously clash with Fritz repeatedly on later occasions because the older Fritz got, the more sure he was that He Knew Best about architecture, too, and Knobelsdorff who had a sound self confidence reacted as you would as a pro if an amateur keeps trying to tell you your business.) But in the winter of 1740/1741, about Silesia? Yeah, no.
(Manteuffel's own withering take down on Fritz' justifications to a correspondent who is all "Yay!" about it come from a man not in Prussia anymore who's broken up with Fritz. We'll never know whether he'd have thought the same way if he'd still been a member of Fritz' circle, though between his life long pro-Imperial policy and his non-impressedness with most royals, he might have. He sure as hell would not have written or said anything compromising then.)
I mean, going native is a thing for envoys. Hoym, long-time Saxon envoy to France, was accused of it when he returned (and thus his pro-France foreign policy surprises me not at all). For all that Suhm didn't fit in very well with FW, after 10 years in Berlin, he clearly went native as a Prussian (hence choosing to stay in Berlin for 6 years as a private citizen, until he needed money, which can't have all been a desire to stay near a Fritz he barely saw).
Agreed. You can add Mitchell who notoriously pissed off his superiors in London with his pro-Prussia reports from the front enough that they replaced him with Joseph Yorke for a hot second before relenting to Fritz wanting to keep Mitchell, and who remained in Prussia till his death despite Prussia/England relationships having gone downhill again and despite his own relationship with Fritz having become looser (and more critical) too. Of course, both Suhm and Mitchell appear to have been good at socializing and making friends with the locals beyond establishling useful connections at court; hence, for example, Lehndorff becoming one of Mitchell's friends (this started in Lehndorff's Hotham jr. inspired enthusiastic Anglophile phase, granted, but it lasted till Mitchell's death), and the Queen's chamberlain as any pro like Mitchell would quickly see is not someone with useful influence at all. For that matter, Manteuffel was excellent at making friends, too, not just via spreading Saxon money; one reason why he remained in contact with Berlin intellectuals after leaving for good, not just with the remains with his spy network, and Manteuffel lived in Berlin so often (briefly as a young man at F1's court, then as an envoy in the last F1 years till 1716, and then from 1733 to 1740) that it's relatively safe to say he liked it there, and probably cared about a Prussia/Saxony alliance beyond the political use.
Unsurprisingly, the envoys who can't stand Berlin (or Fritz) are the ones like Hanbury Williams who also don't have any contact with the locals. (Remmeber, the only enduring relationship Hanbury Williams forged during his time in Berlin was with another lost foreigner, young Poniatowski.) Incidentally, it has occured to me that in a perverse way, Suhm being ready to commit to him and Prussia might have been one of the reasons why Fritz absolutely did not want someone like Peter, who liked it in England and had forged ties there, as an envoy - he was vain, but not so much that he believed becoming emotionally attached to your posting could happen only when he was there.
Rottembourg: I forgot to mention this, but Morgenstern claims he liked it so much in FW's Prussia that he longed for it from Madrid. After reading Leineweber, I choose to believe this was another instant where Morgenstern was being sarcastic.
I would say "maybe that's why his letters got cut by editors?" except depressingly I suspect it's more in line with the general policy of editing anyone not Fritz' letters as the editors assume the only interest in these people lies in what reactions they get out of Fritz.
Sadly, this was my thought too.
I think if you're not pro-Imperially minded and a member of Fritz' circle, that's almost guaranteed.
But until this past week, I had no idea how Suhm, a Saxon envoy, might feel about the HRE! Only in the past few days has a picture of pro-England, anti-HRE leanings started to emerge. (Which, as noted, would explain a lot about FW's feelings, even beyond Suhm/Fritz.)
I look forward to the Knobelsdorff and Gundling novel write-ups!
You can add Mitchell who notoriously pissed off his superiors in London with his pro-Prussia reports from the front enough that they replaced him with Joseph Yorke for a hot second before relenting to Fritz wanting to keep Mitchell
Oh, right, yes, him too!
Incidentally, it has occured to me that in a perverse way, Suhm being ready to commit to him and Prussia might have been one of the reasons why Fritz absolutely did not want someone like Peter, who liked it in England and had forged ties there, as an envoy - he was vain, but not so much that he believed becoming emotionally attached to your posting could happen only when he was there.
Well, he wrote that the British regard Peter as "half a Briton," and it sure didn't sound like he disagreed, so I suspect he already suspected Peter of having gone native.
Rottembourg: I forgot to mention this, but Morgenstern claims he liked it so much in FW's Prussia that he longed for it from Madrid. After reading Leineweber, I choose to believe this was another instant where Morgenstern was being sarcastic.
Rottembourg, of all people!
So I consider it plausible and even likely that Rottembourg missed people that he left behind. He had clearly forged close ties with Katte, so most likely with other Berliners as well.
He may, while in Madrid, have written that he missed X about Prussia/Berlin. Humans can always find something to complain about!
He may even have been telling the truth that the reason he wanted to leave was his health (he did die in 1735, shortly after being recalled from Madrid for that reason).
But what I don't buy is that he missed *FW's* Prussia, qua FW's Prussia. Not the guy who put the finishing touches on Katte's French manners and tried to stage a coup! If he missed anything, it was SD's Prussia.
Suhm apparently wrote a very long letter explaining in detail why he was so busy, which the 1787 editor says he cut out (in general, he says he cuts out a lot whenever Suhm starts to get boring), and since Trier has nothing that the 1787 translation doesn't, apparently Preuss silently cut too!
Me: Wait, you mean he got cut whenever he started getting chatty??
Suhm joins the ranks of people who can't do vivid pen portraits when he depicts Duke Anton Ulrich, whom he portrays in generically positive terms.
Me: ...oh, okay, maybe he really was just boring.
Oh! [personal profile] cahn, Anton Ulrich is...
OH THAT GUY. FRIIIIIITZ (and even more, Elizaveta! And Catherine! :((((((((((((((( )
That's interesting that he would have been for the Silesian invasion!
ugh, I am not going to be able to get to the threesome tonight, much less all the other amazing stuff salon has produced this week, but, wow.
Well, selenak had the same reaction I did, which was: you'd think that would be why, but it's probably just because it didn't involve Fritz. And even if it's boring Russian court intrigues that don't involve anyone anyone's ever heard of, I still want to know in general terms what Suhm was up to in Russia and what would keep him from writing to Fritz for 6 months! And if it's about his family, I *really* want to know!
(Speaking of what he was up to in Russia, I want to know if he had to attend the ice wedding and if so, what he thought. Oh, you know, I'm betting that he begged off for health reasons. It was Feb 1740, and he had himself declared an invalid even before he arrived in Russia, and then he his final illness hit before he left in August 1740 (to the point where he knew he shouldn't be traveling but set out anyway), and I'm sure he went, "Nope, can't be hanging out in ice palaces in Russia in February, sorry! Very fragile! FW, can you die already, I need to get tf out of here.")
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timeasmymeasure
Suhm letters III
Date: 2021-03-14 05:47 pm (UTC)1. I found entirely endearing this part where Fritz sends Suhm an ode (because of course he does; I'm only surprised he didn't send more), and Suhm replies firstly that he loved it and not just because Fritz wrote it (but I suspect only because Fritz wrote it :P), and secondly that he doesn't write poetry but wants to send Fritz some poetry in return for his nice ode. So he, Suhm, is borrowing some poetry for the purpose and enclosing it, but he won't lie and pretend it's his.
But also, he writes, "I will not deceive you by giving them to you as my own, as the Latin Poet formerly deceived the Augustus of his time."
Which Latin poet? Do you know,
Also, I notice Suhm is casting Fritz as Augustus here.
2. I was right about Suhm getting a cut from the fundraising! Not until 1739, so two years into it. And I was wrong about the ring; that was a simple gift with Fritz's portrait in 1740, but in 1739, Fritz tells Suhm he can take a 10% cut, and Suhm seems pleased.
3. There's a 6-month gap in their correspondence in the spring and summer of 1738. Suhm apparently wrote a very long letter explaining in detail why he was so busy, which the 1787 editor says he cut out (in general, he says he cuts out a lot whenever Suhm starts to get boring), and since Trier has nothing that the 1787 translation doesn't, apparently Preuss silently cut too!
(Carlyle complains about the letters being boring, though I don't know what edition he might be referring to.)
4. Suhm joins the ranks of people who can't do vivid pen portraits when he depicts Duke Anton Ulrich, whom he portrays in generically positive terms. The only detail that was interesting to me is that Anton has read all of Wolff's works more than once, which "have, without doubt, a little contributed to form his mind, and strengthen his character." My reaction was: read all the philosophy you can now, Anton, you're going to need it!
Oh!
So I hope all that Wolffian philosophy was helpful!
5. In February 1740, Fritz tells Suhm he's awaiting the events that will allow him to summon Suhm and "perform promises." This makes sense of Suhm's decision to take for granted in June that Fritz wants him and submit his resignation without waiting for a formal invitation.
Also, Fritz is apparently still unsure that it's reciprocated, because his next sentence is: "I hope you are always in the same sentiments in which I have known you, and that you have not forgotten the agreement made the night of our separation." That's why, when he *doesn't* hear anything from Suhm on the subject in June, he gets worried.
This is also when he sends the ring with his portrait to Suhm.
6. Apparently Suhm was in Warsaw not just on his route back, but because he was required to report there for his formal, in-person removal as envoy. But by the time he got there, was so sick that he was exempted from making an appearance at court. :/
7. Remember how the Hohenzollerns didn't use regnal numbers, and so everyone was confused by Friedrich Wilhelm? And that's how Fritz ended up being called Friedrich III, with FW as F2? 1787 editor has him as William I!
8. The editor omits two of the last letters Suhm ever wrote and Fritz's replies, when he's on his way from St. Petersburg. Thank goodness for Preuss!
9. Suhm's last letter but one congratulates Fritz on the death of Charles VI 8 days before:
The warm interest which I take, Sire, in the splendour and felicity of a reign which you promise to your dear subjects, does not permit me to speak of that event, without previously felicitating your Majesty on these great conjectures which will give you an opportunity of augmenting your glory, by endeavoring to promote the interest and happiness of your states.
The editor footnotes this with an observation that the event is the emperor's death, and the conjectures without doubt refer to the claims to Silesia that Fritz is now going to advance.
I thought that was interesting *before* this morning's salon, when we found hints that Suhm's politics might leaned in the anti-Imperial direction. Putting these two together, I'm now even more convinced!
So apparently Suhm, who in his 1740 character portrait said that Fritz cared more about fame than anything, and who in the 1720s was apparently trying to reconcile FW with G2 and may or may not have been hanging around with the English envoy Dubourgay, is now saying that Charles' death will be a great opportunity for Fritz to achieve glory by advancing the interests of his state.
Yeah, so apparently Suhm would have been 100% behind the Silesian invasion. Since he's leaving Saxon service and becoming a Prussian (and turning his kids into Prussians), making his loyalties pretty darn clear, I'm not *sure* how he would have felt about how Fritz treated Saxony in the first Silesian wars (badly enough that it contributed to Saxony switching sides between the first and second), but since neither anywhere near as bad as the Third Silesian War, Suhm might not have had the Algarotti and Maupertuis experience had he lived. Those two both had the expectation that it was going to be Enlightened Academy Times only, and were twiddling their thumbs and getting increasingly frustrated by the sudden emphasis on war (and in one case, captured by Austrians).
Whereas Suhm might have been in for *some* surprises at how Fritz with absolute power turned out, it seems that he would have been less surprised and disappointed than people who knew him less well (Algarotti, Voltaire, etc.). "Go Fritz, invade Silesia! Greatest of all kings! Free those Protestants! :P"
By 1756, the year of the great Saxony invasion and start of the war crime-ridden exploitative occupation, Suhm would have been 65 and, well, we have to assume *much* better health for him to have made it that long, as opposed to the one year of extra health he would have needed in order to witness the whiplash that much of Europe (but not Manteuffel or Superville!) got from Fritz. But I do have to assume that the bombing of Dresden, whether for strategic motives or just spite, would have been a WTF moment even for Suhm.
Note, though, that all his sons were in the Prussian army, and might well have been involved in the occupation. I guess one hopes that they did live in St. Petersburg during the 1736-1740 period, because then they were born in Prussia, raised in Prussia (because even after Suhm stopped being envoy, he remained on a pension in Berlin, presumably with his family, unless he decided to be extra cautious about FW's hanging tendencies), with at most occasional visits to Dresden, and then spent a few years abroad in Russia, so the transition back to Berlin and then into the Prussian army was hopefully not surprising or unusually traumatic (as opposed to the normal traumas of war).
I mean, going native is a thing for envoys. Hoym, long-time Saxon envoy to France, was accused of it when he returned (and thus his pro-France foreign policy surprises me not at all). For all that Suhm didn't fit in very well with FW, after 10 years in Berlin, he clearly went native as a Prussian (hence choosing to stay in Berlin for 6 years as a private citizen, until he needed money, which can't have all been a desire to stay near a Fritz he barely saw).
Whereas Rottembourg was ambassador to Prussia on 3 separate occasions, because every single time he was like, "I need to get the fuck out of here. I mean totally for health reasons! Please recall me
before I strangle FW and cause an international incidentto a better climate!" :PSaxon envoys and Russian threesomes
Date: 2021-03-14 06:13 pm (UTC)English wiki:
Anna's love life took up much time, as the bisexual Anna was involved simultaneously in what were described as "passionate" affairs with the Saxon ambassador Count Moritz zu Lynar and her lady-in-waiting Mengden. Anna's husband did his best to ignore the affairs. After becoming regent, Anton was marginalised, being forced to sleep in another palace while Anna took either Lynar, Mengden or both to bed with her. At times the grand duke would appear to complain about being "cuckolded", but he was always sent away. At one point, Anna proposed to have Lynar marry Mengden in order to unite the two people closest to her in the world together.
German wiki: Anna encouraged the affair of Lynar with Mengden because it gave Anna a cover story to spend time with her lady-in-waiting's husband.
Russian wiki: Mengden/Anton Ulrich! Also, "intriguingly, Julia Mengden facilitated Anna's affair with Lynar by providing her rooms for their affairs." (No mention of threesomes, presumably because Russia officially doesn't have people attracted to the same sex in their country.)
Again, Anton Ulrich, I say: I hope all that philosophy helps! [ETA: Oh, it should go without saying that I'm headcanoning English wiki, because it at least cites modern French, I don't trust the Russian wiki not to be explicitly homophobic, and while Mengden may have been getting it on with both the regent and her husband, that may also have been a story that was made up during homophobic times.]
Also, another unhappy marriage by a Brunswick to a foreign royal who ignored them to spend time with their same-sex favorites (although also opposite-sex in Anna's case, which is possibly related to how they managed to produce a bunch of kids).
...Makes me rethink what life in prison together must have been like. :/
Ooh, the Julia Mengden wiki page article tells me she voluntarily followed Anna Leopoldovna to prison, but when the family was sent to remote Russia in 1744, Mengden was left behind in the old prison. :( At least Catherine let her go when she became Tsarina in 1762 (as not being remotely a threat, I assume).
Also, dang, apparently I had misremembered the details of Lynar! He actually did make it to St. Petersburg in time to replace Suhm and enjoy being the regent's lover, then in 1741 he was traveling back to Saxony to ask permission to leave Saxon service and enter Russian service. (!!) He made it to Dresden, got permission, and he was on his way back when Elizaveta's coup happened. And then the Saxons asked the Russians if they still wanted Lynar, they said no, and so the Saxons kept Lynar in Dresden and Königsberg. Lynar apparently hated Russia for the rest of his life. Given what happened to his lover, I can believe it!
Wow, this is amazing.
1740: Saxon envoy to Russia Suhm requests permission to leave Saxon service so he can be with his royal love. The Saxons grant it. On his way there, he dies.
1741: Saxon envoy to Russia Lynar requests permission to leave Saxon service so he can be with his royal love. The Saxons grant it. On his way there, he finds out his lover has been taken prisoner. They never see each other again.
One, August III is really chill! Can you imagine if two successive Fritzian envoys wanted to leave his service to be with their royal love? Don't worry, August, you'll get your revenge in the 1750s when thousands of conscripted Saxons desert Fritz's service en masse! A Pyrrhic victory, but still.
Two, what is it about Saxon envoys?? :P
Re: Saxon envoys and Russian threesomes
Date: 2021-03-14 06:33 pm (UTC)August III.: I just want everyone to be happy and get along.
His very ambitious ministers duking it out: We don't.
Don't worry, August, you'll get your revenge in the 1750s when thousands of conscripted Saxons desert Fritz's service en masse! A Pyrrhic victory, but still.
Loooong before that, sexy Italian Algarotti deserts Fritz for the fleshpots of Saxony in 1741. :)
Sigh about Russian wiki. Yeah, the reason alas is obvious. As for German wiki, I note it's generally more conservative in 18th century articles (see also Lady Mary/Hervey/Algarotti triangle and the different presentations thereof), but that's because it all too often takes its info from copyright free 19th century publications. When they don't, such as when writing about the wild history of the Casanova memoirs and their translations/bowlderizations, this is less of a problem, and of course articles about modern bi or gay people are different.
Poor Anton Ulrich.
the Julia Mengden wiki page article tells me she voluntarily followed Anna Leopoldovna to prison, but when the family was sent to remote Russia in 1744, Mengden was left behind in the old prison. :( At least Catherine let her go when she became Tsarina in 1762 (as not being remotely a threat, I assume).
No one could raise a rebellion in Julia Mengden's name. (The biographies gave me the impression that Catherine's cruelties weren't, as a rule, pointless. But woe to you if you were in any way a possible candidate for the throne, no matter how unlikely, given she's someone with absolutely zero blood right on it and knows by personal example that coup staging can be done.) Back to Julia Mengden, though; her going with Anna initially does make it sound like true love.
Oh, and if we're listing Saxon envoys to Russia and royal loves - may I remind you who also was one? Poniatowski, after he couldn't be Charles Hanbury-Williams Legetation secretary anymore.
In conclusion, Saxon envoys clearly are the sexiest.
Algarotti: Let me put in a good words for British envoys, since one of them was the tastiest dish to me.....
Re: Saxon envoys and Russian threesomes
Date: 2021-03-14 06:46 pm (UTC)LOL, of course!
Loooong before that, sexy Italian Algarotti deserts Fritz for the fleshpots of Saxony in 1741. :)
Of course, I'd forgotten!
. Yeah, the reason alas is obvious. As for German wiki, I note it's generally more conservative in 18th century articles...but that's because it all too often takes its info from copyright free 19th century publications.
Yes, I hadn't made the connection, but I constantly notice when reading about minor 18th century figures that it's always an online 19th century biographical dictionary, so yes, this makes perfect sense.
The English article is based on a French work from 2000 whose title doesn't sound especially scholarly but is at least modern!
No one could raise a rebellion in Julia Mengden's name.
Exactly.
Back to Julia Mengden, though; her going with Anna initially does make it sound like true love.
That's what I thought!
may I remind you who also was one? Poniatowski, after he couldn't be Charles Hanbury-Williams Legetation secretary anymore.
Oh, duh, why did I not remember he was an envoy? Clearly we have a pattern here! They are the sexiest, and they are more likely to be loyal to their foreign royal loves than to Saxony. Good thing August is so chill!
Algarotti: Let me put in a good words for British envoys, since one of them was the tastiest dish to me.....
True! We discussed how he may have had sex with Peter Keith (who never got to be an envoy, because Fritz is decidedly *not* chill about his envoys going/having gone native), but concluded probably not with an older and sickly Suhm. Though I'm sure they talked about Fritz, and that may be part of why Algarotti appears in Rheinsberg just three or so months after leaving St. Petersburg! (And then leaves him for the fleshpots of Dresden in 1741 and 1742, lol forever.)
Re: Saxon envoys and Russian threesomes
Date: 2021-03-14 07:14 pm (UTC)Oh, duh, why did I not remember he was an envoy? Clearly we have a pattern here! They are the sexiest, and they are more likely to be loyal to their foreign royal loves than to Saxony. Good thing August is so chill!
Well, he can't really complain about Poniatowiski not doing his bit for the Saxon cause, in that Poniatowski held fiery J'Accuse anti Fritz speeches during his stint as Saxon envoy in St. Petersburg (and will in his memoirs go in great detail about just how dastardly Fritz has behaved towards Saxony (and Poland, of course). Alas, though, he still had to leave. That he didn't champion August III's son(s) on the as Kings of Poland after August died in 1763 is another matter. (All this being said, I dare say that if Poniatowski's emotional priority during his time in Russia started with an S, it was for Sophie, not Saxony.)
We discussed how he may have had sex with Peter Keith (who never got to be an envoy, because Fritz is decidedly *not* chill about his envoys going/having gone native
I'm trying to think about memorable Prussian envoys. One of the numerous Podewils clan wrote some memorable "Hot or not? MT" reports between Silesian wars, but he himself isn't someone I know much in terms of personality of. There's Winterfeldt in terms of bringing home the Westminster Treaty in early 1756, but while Winterfedt was definitely A Personality, I don't think he was an official envoy, that was the Swiss secretary of the last guy, no?
...oh, wait, the other Keith, of course, Lord Marischal, in his capacity as Prussian envoy to Versailles. Definitely a personality, but given that his time as envoy coincides with Kaunitz getting the French to sign on the Diplomatic Revolution, well....
Re: Saxon envoys and Russian threesomes
Date: 2021-03-14 08:03 pm (UTC)Prussian Count Rothenburg was briefly envoy to Versailles, as I recall. Peter Keith's son was envoy to Turin, but I know nothing about him and have contradictory information even on his first name (I saw some of his correspondence in the archives, though, where he gets named "Peter Karl", which I suspect he's being confused with his father).
I believe there were at least two Prussians named Mardefeld who were envoys to Russia, one under FW and one Fritz. Ah, yes, Wikipedia tells me uncle and nephew. One of them produced this painting of Peter the Great with a black page (who, as I'm now on the alert for, is wearing a silver collar, just like the one in the Fritz and Wilhelmine painting). (Btw, he looks short and is likely not at his adult height yet, but remember that Peter was 6'8"/203 cm, so take that into account. :P)
But yeah, it's hard to even name Prussian envoys off the top of my head. I indeed suspect Fritz's envoys never had a chance to shine because paranoid secretive micromanaging control freak.
Re: Saxon envoys and Russian threesomes
Date: 2021-03-16 07:24 am (UTC)Also, since you asked whether RussianFritz would have staged a coup against RussianFW or waited for AW's succession to stage a coup against: I think as a male prince, he wouldn't have had the luxury to wait. Russian FW would have either killed him directly or put him into a monastery. Speaking of which, SD and Wilhelmine would have ended up in nunneries in Siberia, too, as soon as those English marriage arguments got serious. As to whether Russian AW would have survved beyond a successful coup - only in the way poor Ivan and his siblings did, I fear, if he didn't get killed outright or died a few months later of some disease. (Heinrich and Ferdinand survive and stay at court by virtue of being young enough and there not being a Fritz heir around, assuming RussianFritz already has a clue he won't reproduce himself.)
Re: Saxon envoys and Russian threesomes
Date: 2021-03-20 05:11 pm (UTC)which is possibly related to how they managed to produce a bunch of kids
In general I don't think I understand when it's OK to randomly have kids by some other guy and not. For a royal, right out, I get that. But if you're not royal it's OK? (Also see Emilie.)
...Makes me rethink what life in prison together must have been like. :/
Oof, yeah.
Re: Saxon envoys and Russian threesomes
Date: 2021-03-20 05:29 pm (UTC)In general I don't think I understand when it's OK to randomly have kids by some other guy and not. For a royal, right out, I get that. But if you're not royal it's OK? (Also see Emilie.)
Sorry, if it wasn't clear, I meant that Anna's marriage to a Brunswick sibling produced a bunch of kids! I.e. Ivan VI and all his siblings who got locked up. Unlike Heinrich and Fritz's marriages, where they not only had no interest in their spouse, they had no interest in the opposite sex, which contributed to the no kids. (As did the trauma. Philippe d'Orléans, Selena is poised to type, managed to produce kids with Liselotte. :P)
As for royals in general, Catherine's supposed to have managed it, but Russia is special. It's hard to tell for sure without a paternity test, though she was clearly doing things that lead to extramarital offspring during her marriage. As we saw for EC2, that was a no-go in Prussia.
As for non-royals, I think a lot depends on the husband. Emilie's husband was supportive of her affairs! Some husbands left the kids to their brother and their brother got the cheating wife locked up in Spandau. *cough* Gundling brothers.
In general, a lot of women's experience historically has depended on whether they had supportive men in their lives or not. I think of my two maternal great-grandmothers, living in the same town in the early 20th century. One (the Mildred after whom this blog is named) got college education, career advice, and bob cuts, and didn't marry until her 30s, when she was the family breadwinner. The other learned to cook and keep house, married in her early teens, produced 15 kids, and never went to school a day in her life or learned to read. Why? Because they had different fathers.
ETA: Also worth clarifying, if it wasn't clear, that Anna Leopoldovna is very much a royal: she's the niece of Anna Ivanovna (she of the ice palace wedding), she was expecting to be named the heir up until the last minute, and instead her 2-month old son was named heir, so now she's the equivalent of queen mother and regent. Does it matter if her husband is the father of the heir, given that the succession right is coming through her and her husband is just some duke? Probably, but not as much as in, say, Prussia. (Or as in Catherine's case, later, when Paul was at pains to prove he was Peter's son and therefore a Romanov by blood.) That said, Ivan VI was conceived a few months after the wedding, and Lynar didn't arrive until he was born, so Ivan is probably Anton's. And most of the rest of the kids were conceived in prison.
Re: Saxon envoys and Russian threesomes
Date: 2021-03-21 09:37 am (UTC)She also had one more advantage most other royal wives didn't, though it was one that was by no means a guarantee: her fate during her marriage (except for the last six months of same) depended on her husband only secundarily. Mainly, it depended on Elizaveta as the Czarina. And Elizaveta had the problem that the future of the House of Romanov depended on (P)Russian Pete and Catherine producing children, or otherwise locked up Ivan IV. and his elsewhere locked up siblings might have a chance again. Since for the first seven years of the Peter/Catherine marriage there were no children (and likely no sex, or not very much of it), Catherine was downright encouraged to take her first lover (Saltykow, the possible father of Paul); Elizaveta seems to have decided to hell with the Romanov bloodline, even a nominal grandnephew she could raise was better than Ivan & siblings. Of course, she also could have decided that it was Catherine's fault and what Peter needed was a new wife to produce heirs with, but: Peter didn't have illegitimate children (that I know of). Catherine, otoh, once she started to take lovers, had no problem getting repeatedly pregnant. So it must have been pretty clear to Elizaveta where the problem lay, and replacing Catherine as Peter's wife would not solve anything from her perspective.
(Once Elizaveta was dead, Catherine's fate really did depend entirely on Peter until she accomplished her coup, and whether Peter would or would not have gotten rid of her if she hadn't done that has been debated ever since. Not least since her defenders were invested in presenting it as a very real danger. Which, given the precedent of Peter the Great ridding himself of his unloved first wife by putting her into a nunnery without bothering to get her consent, I can see, but of course it's still debatable since we know who ended up locking up whom.)
One and a half generations later, you have Lady Melbourne, mother of William Lamb the future Lord Melbourne who was Victoria's first PM in his old age and the husband of scandalous Lady Caroline Lamb in his youth. Lady Melbourne was one of the most famous Georgian society ladies and salon hostesses, and famously declared that all you owed your husband was exactly one male heir who was undoubtedly his. After that, you were free to do as you pleased as long as you did it with tact and discretion. (Since William was a younger son who only inherited the title due to his older brothers' deaths, no, he was not the son of Lord Melbourne, and he as well as the rest of the family knew it.) Given that aristocratic marriages were mainly (with a very few exceptions) political and business alliances, fair enough. But as Mildred said: it really depended on the husbands. If they decided not to go along with this, or have the open marriage only open in one direction (i.e. theirs), with their wives punished for adultery, that was utterly in their power, and some did. If they wanted to abuse their wives, they could. Let me remind you of Madame de Graffigny again, same generation and social class as Émilie, who got an abusive jerk who beat her instead of a supportive "live and let live" Marquis, and the only thing she was able to do was to beg her father (i.e. another man, and one outranking her husband) for help.
Re: Saxon envoys and Russian threesomes
Date: 2021-03-21 04:18 pm (UTC)And yeah, Émilie got super lucky. :( for the ones who didn't.
Re: Suhm letters III
Date: 2021-03-15 08:10 am (UTC)Me neither.
Suhm joins the ranks of people who can't do vivid pen portraits when he depicts Duke Anton Ulrich, whom he portrays in generically positive terms.
I would say "maybe that's why his letters got cut by editors?" except depressingly I suspect it's more in line with the general policy of editing anyone not Fritz' letters as the editors assume the only interest in these people lies in what reactions they get out of Fritz.
Also, I, too, hope Anton Ulrich got some benefit from Wolff's collected works, poor guy.
Yeah, so apparently Suhm would have been 100% behind the Silesian invasion.
I think if you're not pro-Imperially minded and a member of Fritz' circle, that's almost guaranteed. (Which is why I raised both eyebrows when the novel about Knobelsdorff I've just finished depicted Knobelsdorff as horrified by it. I can buy Knobelsdorff disagreeing with Fritz on a number of issues. (Knobelsdorff would notoriously clash with Fritz repeatedly on later occasions because the older Fritz got, the more sure he was that He Knew Best about architecture, too, and Knobelsdorff who had a sound self confidence reacted as you would as a pro if an amateur keeps trying to tell you your business.) But in the winter of 1740/1741, about Silesia? Yeah, no.
(Manteuffel's own withering take down on Fritz' justifications to a correspondent who is all "Yay!" about it come from a man not in Prussia anymore who's broken up with Fritz. We'll never know whether he'd have thought the same way if he'd still been a member of Fritz' circle, though between his life long pro-Imperial policy and his non-impressedness with most royals, he might have. He sure as hell would not have written or said anything compromising then.)
I mean, going native is a thing for envoys. Hoym, long-time Saxon envoy to France, was accused of it when he returned (and thus his pro-France foreign policy surprises me not at all). For all that Suhm didn't fit in very well with FW, after 10 years in Berlin, he clearly went native as a Prussian (hence choosing to stay in Berlin for 6 years as a private citizen, until he needed money, which can't have all been a desire to stay near a Fritz he barely saw).
Agreed. You can add Mitchell who notoriously pissed off his superiors in London with his pro-Prussia reports from the front enough that they replaced him with Joseph Yorke for a hot second before relenting to Fritz wanting to keep Mitchell, and who remained in Prussia till his death despite Prussia/England relationships having gone downhill again and despite his own relationship with Fritz having become looser (and more critical) too. Of course, both Suhm and Mitchell appear to have been good at socializing and making friends with the locals beyond establishling useful connections at court; hence, for example, Lehndorff becoming one of Mitchell's friends (this started in Lehndorff's Hotham jr. inspired enthusiastic Anglophile phase, granted, but it lasted till Mitchell's death), and the Queen's chamberlain as any pro like Mitchell would quickly see is not someone with useful influence at all. For that matter, Manteuffel was excellent at making friends, too, not just via spreading Saxon money; one reason why he remained in contact with Berlin intellectuals after leaving for good, not just with the remains with his spy network, and Manteuffel lived in Berlin so often (briefly as a young man at F1's court, then as an envoy in the last F1 years till 1716, and then from 1733 to 1740) that it's relatively safe to say he liked it there, and probably cared about a Prussia/Saxony alliance beyond the political use.
Unsurprisingly, the envoys who can't stand Berlin (or Fritz) are the ones like Hanbury Williams who also don't have any contact with the locals. (Remmeber, the only enduring relationship Hanbury Williams forged during his time in Berlin was with another lost foreigner, young Poniatowski.) Incidentally, it has occured to me that in a perverse way, Suhm being ready to commit to him and Prussia might have been one of the reasons why Fritz absolutely did not want someone like Peter, who liked it in England and had forged ties there, as an envoy - he was vain, but not so much that he believed becoming emotionally attached to your posting could happen only when he was there.
Rottembourg: I forgot to mention this, but Morgenstern claims he liked it so much in FW's Prussia that he longed for it from Madrid. After reading Leineweber, I choose to believe this was another instant where Morgenstern was being sarcastic.
Re: Suhm letters III
Date: 2021-03-15 10:05 pm (UTC)Sadly, this was my thought too.
I think if you're not pro-Imperially minded and a member of Fritz' circle, that's almost guaranteed.
But until this past week, I had no idea how Suhm, a Saxon envoy, might feel about the HRE! Only in the past few days has a picture of pro-England, anti-HRE leanings started to emerge. (Which, as noted, would explain a lot about FW's feelings, even beyond Suhm/Fritz.)
I look forward to the Knobelsdorff and Gundling novel write-ups!
You can add Mitchell who notoriously pissed off his superiors in London with his pro-Prussia reports from the front enough that they replaced him with Joseph Yorke for a hot second before relenting to Fritz wanting to keep Mitchell
Oh, right, yes, him too!
Incidentally, it has occured to me that in a perverse way, Suhm being ready to commit to him and Prussia might have been one of the reasons why Fritz absolutely did not want someone like Peter, who liked it in England and had forged ties there, as an envoy - he was vain, but not so much that he believed becoming emotionally attached to your posting could happen only when he was there.
Well, he wrote that the British regard Peter as "half a Briton," and it sure didn't sound like he disagreed, so I suspect he already suspected Peter of having gone native.
Rottembourg: I forgot to mention this, but Morgenstern claims he liked it so much in FW's Prussia that he longed for it from Madrid. After reading Leineweber, I choose to believe this was another instant where Morgenstern was being sarcastic.
Rottembourg, of all people!
So I consider it plausible and even likely that Rottembourg missed people that he left behind. He had clearly forged close ties with Katte, so most likely with other Berliners as well.
He may, while in Madrid, have written that he missed X about Prussia/Berlin. Humans can always find something to complain about!
He may even have been telling the truth that the reason he wanted to leave was his health (he did die in 1735, shortly after being recalled from Madrid for that reason).
But what I don't buy is that he missed *FW's* Prussia, qua FW's Prussia. Not the guy who put the finishing touches on Katte's French manners and tried to stage a coup! If he missed anything, it was SD's Prussia.
So yeah, Ima guess sarcasm with you. :P
Re: Suhm letters III
Date: 2021-03-20 05:29 am (UTC)Me: Wait, you mean he got cut whenever he started getting chatty??
Suhm joins the ranks of people who can't do vivid pen portraits when he depicts Duke Anton Ulrich, whom he portrays in generically positive terms.
Me: ...oh, okay, maybe he really was just boring.
Oh! [personal profile] cahn, Anton Ulrich is...
OH THAT GUY. FRIIIIIITZ (and even more, Elizaveta! And Catherine! :((((((((((((((( )
That's interesting that he would have been for the Silesian invasion!
ugh, I am not going to be able to get to the threesome tonight, much less all the other amazing stuff salon has produced this week, but, wow.
Re: Suhm letters III
Date: 2021-03-20 03:57 pm (UTC)Well,
(Speaking of what he was up to in Russia, I want to know if he had to attend the ice wedding and if so, what he thought. Oh, you know, I'm betting that he begged off for health reasons. It was Feb 1740, and he had himself declared an invalid even before he arrived in Russia, and then he his final illness hit before he left in August 1740 (to the point where he knew he shouldn't be traveling but set out anyway), and I'm sure he went, "Nope, can't be hanging out in ice palaces in Russia in February, sorry! Very fragile!
FW, can you die already, I need to get tf out of here.")