Speaking of sexy Saxons and damaged Prussians, there is a Goethe quote about Lessings Minna von Barnhelm which I can't get quite together again and would need more time to look up that comes to mind here. (Reminder: Minna von Barnhelm is the first German play that deals explicitly with the fallout of the 7 Years War. Minna, our heroine, is a sensible, loving, and yes, sexy Saxon. Tellheim, our hero, is a very damaged stiff necked Prussian who got dishonorably dismissed from the army because he supposedly was corrupt when he really was anything but and gave his utmost to make the occupation better for those Saxons he could help, but his pride won't let him confess the truth and his miserable state to Minna, nor marry her when he can't offer her a future. Of couse, as soon as Minna fakes having lost her estate and money in the war as well, Tellheim immediately proposes again. The happy ending does need a Fritz ex machina, i.e. a letter in which he writes that "my brother" (i.e. Heinrich) has found out the truth about Tellheim and what an honorable and compassionate officer he's been and therefore Tellheim is no longer dishonorably discharged. But by and large the comedy is an ode of sensible sexy Saxons over stiffnecked Prussians who better listen to the Saxons if they know what's good for them, and the Goethe quote is about the symbolism and Lessing trying to achieve Saxon/Prussian reconciliation via art (and Minna as the most charming of all Saxons) in the play.
Oh, duh, why did I not remember he was an envoy? Clearly we have a pattern here! They are the sexiest, and they are more likely to be loyal to their foreign royal loves than to Saxony. Good thing August is so chill!
Well, he can't really complain about Poniatowiski not doing his bit for the Saxon cause, in that Poniatowski held fiery J'Accuse anti Fritz speeches during his stint as Saxon envoy in St. Petersburg (and will in his memoirs go in great detail about just how dastardly Fritz has behaved towards Saxony (and Poland, of course). Alas, though, he still had to leave. That he didn't champion August III's son(s) on the as Kings of Poland after August died in 1763 is another matter. (All this being said, I dare say that if Poniatowski's emotional priority during his time in Russia started with an S, it was for Sophie, not Saxony.)
We discussed how he may have had sex with Peter Keith (who never got to be an envoy, because Fritz is decidedly *not* chill about his envoys going/having gone native
I'm trying to think about memorable Prussian envoys. One of the numerous Podewils clan wrote some memorable "Hot or not? MT" reports between Silesian wars, but he himself isn't someone I know much in terms of personality of. There's Winterfeldt in terms of bringing home the Westminster Treaty in early 1756, but while Winterfedt was definitely A Personality, I don't think he was an official envoy, that was the Swiss secretary of the last guy, no?
...oh, wait, the other Keith, of course, Lord Marischal, in his capacity as Prussian envoy to Versailles. Definitely a personality, but given that his time as envoy coincides with Kaunitz getting the French to sign on the Diplomatic Revolution, well....
AFAIK, Fritzian envoys tended to complain that they were hamstrung by the micromanaging and being constantly in the dark and having no authority to do anything!
Prussian Count Rothenburg was briefly envoy to Versailles, as I recall. Peter Keith's son was envoy to Turin, but I know nothing about him and have contradictory information even on his first name (I saw some of his correspondence in the archives, though, where he gets named "Peter Karl", which I suspect he's being confused with his father).
I believe there were at least two Prussians named Mardefeld who were envoys to Russia, one under FW and one Fritz. Ah, yes, Wikipedia tells me uncle and nephew. One of them produced this painting of Peter the Great with a black page (who, as I'm now on the alert for, is wearing a silver collar, just like the one in the Fritz and Wilhelmine painting). (Btw, he looks short and is likely not at his adult height yet, but remember that Peter was 6'8"/203 cm, so take that into account. :P)
But yeah, it's hard to even name Prussian envoys off the top of my head. I indeed suspect Fritz's envoys never had a chance to shine because paranoid secretive micromanaging control freak.
Peter the Great with black page - at first I thought, oh, must be Pushkin's great-grandfather, but then I read the description and saw it couldn't have been because Pushkin's great grandfather was already in his 20s at that point. (He was also a fascinating character, check out his wiki entry, who lucked out within the bad luck of being a slave in that he got adopted by Peter, got to study at the university in France sponsored by him, and later was an important figure at Elizaveta's court. Otoh no one knows what became of the boy in the painting, who can't have been him.
Also, since you asked whether RussianFritz would have staged a coup against RussianFW or waited for AW's succession to stage a coup against: I think as a male prince, he wouldn't have had the luxury to wait. Russian FW would have either killed him directly or put him into a monastery. Speaking of which, SD and Wilhelmine would have ended up in nunneries in Siberia, too, as soon as those English marriage arguments got serious. As to whether Russian AW would have survved beyond a successful coup - only in the way poor Ivan and his siblings did, I fear, if he didn't get killed outright or died a few months later of some disease. (Heinrich and Ferdinand survive and stay at court by virtue of being young enough and there not being a Fritz heir around, assuming RussianFritz already has a clue he won't reproduce himself.)
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Saxon envoys and Russian threesomes
Date: 2021-03-14 07:14 pm (UTC)Oh, duh, why did I not remember he was an envoy? Clearly we have a pattern here! They are the sexiest, and they are more likely to be loyal to their foreign royal loves than to Saxony. Good thing August is so chill!
Well, he can't really complain about Poniatowiski not doing his bit for the Saxon cause, in that Poniatowski held fiery J'Accuse anti Fritz speeches during his stint as Saxon envoy in St. Petersburg (and will in his memoirs go in great detail about just how dastardly Fritz has behaved towards Saxony (and Poland, of course). Alas, though, he still had to leave. That he didn't champion August III's son(s) on the as Kings of Poland after August died in 1763 is another matter. (All this being said, I dare say that if Poniatowski's emotional priority during his time in Russia started with an S, it was for Sophie, not Saxony.)
We discussed how he may have had sex with Peter Keith (who never got to be an envoy, because Fritz is decidedly *not* chill about his envoys going/having gone native
I'm trying to think about memorable Prussian envoys. One of the numerous Podewils clan wrote some memorable "Hot or not? MT" reports between Silesian wars, but he himself isn't someone I know much in terms of personality of. There's Winterfeldt in terms of bringing home the Westminster Treaty in early 1756, but while Winterfedt was definitely A Personality, I don't think he was an official envoy, that was the Swiss secretary of the last guy, no?
...oh, wait, the other Keith, of course, Lord Marischal, in his capacity as Prussian envoy to Versailles. Definitely a personality, but given that his time as envoy coincides with Kaunitz getting the French to sign on the Diplomatic Revolution, well....
Re: Saxon envoys and Russian threesomes
Date: 2021-03-14 08:03 pm (UTC)Prussian Count Rothenburg was briefly envoy to Versailles, as I recall. Peter Keith's son was envoy to Turin, but I know nothing about him and have contradictory information even on his first name (I saw some of his correspondence in the archives, though, where he gets named "Peter Karl", which I suspect he's being confused with his father).
I believe there were at least two Prussians named Mardefeld who were envoys to Russia, one under FW and one Fritz. Ah, yes, Wikipedia tells me uncle and nephew. One of them produced this painting of Peter the Great with a black page (who, as I'm now on the alert for, is wearing a silver collar, just like the one in the Fritz and Wilhelmine painting). (Btw, he looks short and is likely not at his adult height yet, but remember that Peter was 6'8"/203 cm, so take that into account. :P)
But yeah, it's hard to even name Prussian envoys off the top of my head. I indeed suspect Fritz's envoys never had a chance to shine because paranoid secretive micromanaging control freak.
Re: Saxon envoys and Russian threesomes
Date: 2021-03-16 07:24 am (UTC)Also, since you asked whether RussianFritz would have staged a coup against RussianFW or waited for AW's succession to stage a coup against: I think as a male prince, he wouldn't have had the luxury to wait. Russian FW would have either killed him directly or put him into a monastery. Speaking of which, SD and Wilhelmine would have ended up in nunneries in Siberia, too, as soon as those English marriage arguments got serious. As to whether Russian AW would have survved beyond a successful coup - only in the way poor Ivan and his siblings did, I fear, if he didn't get killed outright or died a few months later of some disease. (Heinrich and Ferdinand survive and stay at court by virtue of being young enough and there not being a Fritz heir around, assuming RussianFritz already has a clue he won't reproduce himself.)