(Lord Hervey, somewhere in the hereafter: *spit take*)
Ha!
the poor lady from this point onwards is known as "Sweet Smelling Charlotte" in tout Berlin.
Wow. And I mean, also poor SD, who the entire tobacco parliament now knows smells bad??
At this point, a vague memory made itself known, because yes, in one of the many books I've read this last year it did say William of Orange considered adopting FW as his heir for a while
Yes, it was in Ziebura's Sons book, and when I ran into it, I brought it up and we had this convo and AUs were requested!
Oh, and that thread finally reminds me of what I knew we had found but couldn't remember or find:
FW beats up cousin George when he's 12/13 and George is 17/18. Shortly after F1's coronation.
So yes, that would have been well after they learned to fence. So Morgenstern is saying it wasn't a fistfight but a swordfight? Still humiliating to have reached your adult height and lose to someone who's notoriously short and just about to hit puberty!
also he murdered little baby Friedrich Ludwig with his stupid salute shooting
I had encountered this more than once, but didn't know the source! Was this one of the F1 criticisms that Leineweber says Morgenstern got from Fritz?
I am very hard trying to take this solely as referring to Hephaistion as an example of a "good" favourite here, but you're not making it easy, Morgenstern.
My first reading of this sentence was that his ancestors did not treat their Hephaistions well, but yeah, the homoerotic reading is equally plausible!
Morgenstern, as mentioned, defends FW against the charge of cruelty, a misunderstanding which arose, says he, because "of the beatings, because of the recruitment excesses and because of the strict executions".
Um. I agree that Leineweber has to be onto something here, because my first reaction to this sentence was, "Beatings will continue until morale improves"! (Which is literally what FW told Fritz: I treated you harshly so you would love me and trust me and be more cheerful!)
(Yep, Morgenstern is definitely Klepper's source for postponing FW being abusive to Fritz until 1730.)
*facepalm*
We have documented evidence to the contrary, people!
Also, emotional abuse is super damaging as well!
1.) Abt, who then died twice.
I see cahn had the same reaction I did, which was, "Wait, we're just going to pass over this without comment?" :D It's also very unsearchable, alas.
but for every stroke with the paintbrush which the King didn't manage well, Hänsgen got a rich share of pushes and slaps.
OMG, of course FW beat up his teacher for his own mistakes.
The results of these painting lessons weren't much to look at, though the student easily did as well as the master.
Double burn!
German comedy used to be very bawdy in those days, and so he thought it was too dangerous for the youngsters.
Oh, funny, I feel like we ran into SD forbidding her daughters to attend for this reason?
especially the youngest son, then 6 or 7 years old, calling himself Policinello
Per Wikipedia, this is the name of a particular comic figure in Italian comedy:
Since the time of the Renaissance, this figure has mostly been a sly, cunning--and at the same time simple-minded and foolish--coarse, and voracious servant of peasant origin. The figure mostly had a hump, often a long bird nose, which gave it a fox-like expression.
Of Italian comedy, he liked slapstick, but he was ready to admit that this was not to everyone's taste.
Not according to Wilhelmine! Or at least maybe that concession was specific to Italian slapstick, since he seems to have made everyone sit through German comedy performances that weren't to her taste. :P
Wow. And I mean, also poor SD, who the entire tobacco parliament now knows smells bad??
Yep. Mind you, joking about the Queen in this way would be kind of suicidal both in the FW era and in the Fritz era (I do think Fritz' tolerance for free speech would end at the first joke about his mother's vagina smells), whereas I susppose noblewoman X is a free shot. Still: men.
So Morgenstern is saying it wasn't a fistfight but a swordfight? Still humiliating to have reached your adult height and lose to someone who's notoriously short and just about to hit puberty!
No kidding. Mind you, Leineweber is a bit sceptical that it was a sword fight and not a fist fight, but if it was, it would additionally explain G2's eagerness for a rematch. (Because let's not forget, he doesn't want just their troops having a go at each other, he wants that personal duel!)
I had encountered this more than once, but didn't know the source! Was this one of the F1 criticisms that Leineweber says Morgenstern got from Fritz?
He doesn't single it out as Fritz derived, no, but it might have been. Sooner or later, one of us will have to read Fritz' "History of the House of Brandenburg", mes amies.
FW learning to paint: OMG, of course FW beat up his teacher for his own mistakes.
Of course he did. That's another job I would not have liked to have had. Note that FW presumably did not ask the official court painter to teach him. I guess even he knew Pesne would have left post haste the first time he did that, as he was famous enough to get other good jobs at other courts.
I suppose at this point I should bring up again one of the authors I read, either Klosterhuis or the Wust historian, I think, who bring up the porphyria theory and at any rate the fact FW was near constantly ill from the later 1720s onwards as an argument that lessens his responsibility for his utter lack of impulse control. However, he was as healthy as he would ever be as a young King (of 25) when hiring Gundling and becoming increasingly abusive towards him,but then, none of the "FW wasn't that bad, Fritz couldn't lose anyway, and Wilhelmine is exaggarating" authors ever mentions him (or Doris Ritter, or the anonymous Jew whom FW was after with his stick when yelling "you should love me, not fear me!".
Double burn!
Indeed. I giggled. This is what gave me the impression Morgenstern really didn't care for Hänsgen.
German comedy used to be very bawdy in those days, and so he thought it was too dangerous for the youngsters.
Oh, funny, I feel like we ran into SD forbidding her daughters to attend for this reason?
Stratemann mentions it in his dispatches. And speaking of Stratemann, he also contradicts Morgenstern's claim the kids, including his favourites, didn't get anything but friendly looks, kisses and check stroking from FW. (Though of course FW may have become even more thrifty in his last four years, which was when Morgenstern knew him.) As a reminder, Stratemann reports: fireworks for kid AW (and miniature canons) in 1729, and let's not forget Christmas 1730 (did something happen?), when our Braunschweig envoy writes this: The court jeweller has created presents in gold and silver in the worth of 12/m Reichstaler, of which the Queen had golden pieces for her cabinet, the princes and princesses had silver lates. Princess Charlotte, our Prince of Bevern's bride, received an expensive jewel, some silver kitchen supply, shovels and pliers, and a few pretty things to dress herself up. His Highness her groom shall receive a set of laces, next to a golden set Point d'Espange and other treats sent to him on the occasion of Holy Christ's feast. Now the Princess Ulrike had asked for a while to receive the King's portrait as a Christmas present, and it was among her gifts; when the third prince (i.e. Heinrich) noticed, he asked for a portrait as well, and did receive one, about which this princess showed herself somewhat disgusted. The King went on Christmas Eve in his own person with an entourage to the local Christmas Market and bought entertaining pleasantries for the little princes and princesses. (...) At the first day of Christmas, the widowed Madam General v. Dörfling had had carried a good bowl of cooked Sauerkraut with a roasted fat goose to the palace, as his Majestly loves to eat this dish, and on the holiday a bowl with beautiful apples, which has been received very graciously.
Later, we have, in the summer of 1731: (S)ince the oldest Princess has submitted herself completely to the King's will, she's been gifted with much rich clothing, a purse and other precious triflings; and thus there can be no doubt (as to the reconciliation). Princess Ulrike, who since a year has been the King's greatest favourite and had been preferred to her older sister Sophie, has now been degraded due to a minor mistake. Despite her being only eleven years of Age, she still possess a great mind and thus a noble spirit; and thus she's very touchy about this and torments herself: at the King's demand, the Queen has taken the diamond earrings which the Queen of Sweden had given (Ulrike) some years ago away, and then she had to sit at the table with her youngest sister Princess (Amalie) despite having been allowed to sit for a year at the King's table.
Policinello: thank you for the data. I wonder whether the youngest prince means literally the youngest prince, i.e. Ferdinand, which would put this event in 1736 or 1737, or the youngest prince at the time it happened, in which case it could have been Heinrich or even AW. Now if it was Ferdinand, Morgenstern could have witnessed it himself, but what makes me hesitate is that this would be rather late in life for FW to object ot French comedy. Incidentally, if Policinello is traditionally depicted with a humpback, I can think of another reason why FW finds it objectionable for one of his sons to play the role - his father, F1, who had a humpback and hence the nickname "der schiefe Fritz".
Btw, that this happened per se, I do believe, because children after watching a play calling each other with the names of the characters and playing them is definitely a thing, especially this bunch of kids, most of whom in various degrees are into performing later.
FW admitting it's not to everyone's taste doesn't mean FW won't make everyone watch it! Just that in Morgenstern's hearing he's been known to say, yeah, okay, I like it but I get that not everyone does.
However, he was as healthy as he would ever be as a young King (of 25) when hiring Gundling and becoming increasingly abusive towards him,
I've seen the bad health argument, and while I'm sure the flare-ups didn't help, and I *know* the alcohol consumption didn't help, let's not remember that the Tiny Terror years were equally out of control! Between swallowing shoelaces/shoe fasteners, standing on the ledge of a window and threatening to jump to get his way, throwing his chamberlain out the window, beating up G2, beating up the Prince of Courland...his track record is pretty damn consistent throughout his life.
I wonder whether the youngest prince means literally the youngest prince, i.e. Ferdinand, which would put this event in 1736 or 1737, or the youngest prince at the time it happened, in which case it could have been Heinrich or even AW.
I was wondering the exact same thing.
FW admitting it's not to everyone's taste doesn't mean FW won't make everyone watch it!
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timeasmymeasure
Re: He's just a soul whose intentions were good: Morgenstern on FW - A
Date: 2021-03-13 04:51 pm (UTC)Ha!
the poor lady from this point onwards is known as "Sweet Smelling Charlotte" in tout Berlin.
Wow. And I mean, also poor SD, who the entire tobacco parliament now knows smells bad??
At this point, a vague memory made itself known, because yes, in one of the many books I've read this last year it did say William of Orange considered adopting FW as his heir for a while
Yes, it was in Ziebura's Sons book, and when I ran into it, I brought it up and we had this convo and AUs were requested!
Oh, and that thread finally reminds me of what I knew we had found but couldn't remember or find:
FW beats up cousin George when he's 12/13 and George is 17/18. Shortly after F1's coronation.
So yes, that would have been well after they learned to fence. So Morgenstern is saying it wasn't a fistfight but a swordfight? Still humiliating to have reached your adult height and lose to someone who's notoriously short and just about to hit puberty!
also he murdered little baby Friedrich Ludwig with his stupid salute shooting
I had encountered this more than once, but didn't know the source! Was this one of the F1 criticisms that Leineweber says Morgenstern got from Fritz?
I am very hard trying to take this solely as referring to Hephaistion as an example of a "good" favourite here, but you're not making it easy, Morgenstern.
My first reading of this sentence was that his ancestors did not treat their Hephaistions well, but yeah, the homoerotic reading is equally plausible!
Morgenstern, as mentioned, defends FW against the charge of cruelty, a misunderstanding which arose, says he, because "of the beatings, because of the recruitment excesses and because of the strict executions".
Um. I agree that Leineweber has to be onto something here, because my first reaction to this sentence was, "Beatings will continue until morale improves"! (Which is literally what FW told Fritz: I treated you harshly so you would love me and trust me and be more cheerful!)
(Yep, Morgenstern is definitely Klepper's source for postponing FW being abusive to Fritz until 1730.)
*facepalm*
We have documented evidence to the contrary, people!
Also, emotional abuse is super damaging as well!
1.) Abt, who then died twice.
I see
but for every stroke with the paintbrush which the King didn't manage well, Hänsgen got a rich share of pushes and slaps.
OMG, of course FW beat up his teacher for his own mistakes.
The results of these painting lessons weren't much to look at, though the student easily did as well as the master.
Double burn!
German comedy used to be very bawdy in those days, and so he thought it was too dangerous for the youngsters.
Oh, funny, I feel like we ran into SD forbidding her daughters to attend for this reason?
especially the youngest son, then 6 or 7 years old, calling himself Policinello
Per Wikipedia, this is the name of a particular comic figure in Italian comedy:
Since the time of the Renaissance, this figure has mostly been a sly, cunning--and at the same time simple-minded and foolish--coarse, and voracious servant of peasant origin. The figure mostly had a hump, often a long bird nose, which gave it a fox-like expression.
Of Italian comedy, he liked slapstick, but he was ready to admit that this was not to everyone's taste.
Not according to Wilhelmine! Or at least maybe that concession was specific to Italian slapstick, since he seems to have made everyone sit through German comedy performances that weren't to her taste. :P
Re: He's just a soul whose intentions were good: Morgenstern on FW - A
Date: 2021-03-14 08:38 am (UTC)Yep. Mind you, joking about the Queen in this way would be kind of suicidal both in the FW era and in the Fritz era (I do think Fritz' tolerance for free speech would end at the first joke about his mother's vagina smells), whereas I susppose noblewoman X is a free shot. Still: men.
So Morgenstern is saying it wasn't a fistfight but a swordfight? Still humiliating to have reached your adult height and lose to someone who's notoriously short and just about to hit puberty!
No kidding. Mind you, Leineweber is a bit sceptical that it was a sword fight and not a fist fight, but if it was, it would additionally explain G2's eagerness for a rematch. (Because let's not forget, he doesn't want just their troops having a go at each other, he wants that personal duel!)
I had encountered this more than once, but didn't know the source! Was this one of the F1 criticisms that Leineweber says Morgenstern got from Fritz?
He doesn't single it out as Fritz derived, no, but it might have been. Sooner or later, one of us will have to read Fritz' "History of the House of Brandenburg", mes amies.
FW learning to paint: OMG, of course FW beat up his teacher for his own mistakes.
Of course he did. That's another job I would not have liked to have had. Note that FW presumably did not ask the official court painter to teach him. I guess even he knew Pesne would have left post haste the first time he did that, as he was famous enough to get other good jobs at other courts.
I suppose at this point I should bring up again one of the authors I read, either Klosterhuis or the Wust historian, I think, who bring up the porphyria theory and at any rate the fact FW was near constantly ill from the later 1720s onwards as an argument that lessens his responsibility for his utter lack of impulse control. However, he was as healthy as he would ever be as a young King (of 25) when hiring Gundling and becoming increasingly abusive towards him,but then, none of the "FW wasn't that bad, Fritz couldn't lose anyway, and Wilhelmine is exaggarating" authors ever mentions him (or Doris Ritter, or the anonymous Jew whom FW was after with his stick when yelling "you should love me, not fear me!".
Double burn!
Indeed. I giggled. This is what gave me the impression Morgenstern really didn't care for Hänsgen.
German comedy used to be very bawdy in those days, and so he thought it was too dangerous for the youngsters.
Oh, funny, I feel like we ran into SD forbidding her daughters to attend for this reason?
Stratemann mentions it in his dispatches. And speaking of Stratemann, he also contradicts Morgenstern's claim the kids, including his favourites, didn't get anything but friendly looks, kisses and check stroking from FW. (Though of course FW may have become even more thrifty in his last four years, which was when Morgenstern knew him.) As a reminder, Stratemann reports: fireworks for kid AW (and miniature canons) in 1729, and let's not forget Christmas 1730 (did something happen?), when our Braunschweig envoy writes this: The court jeweller has created presents in gold and silver in the worth of 12/m Reichstaler, of which the Queen had golden pieces for her cabinet, the princes and princesses had silver lates. Princess Charlotte, our Prince of Bevern's bride, received an expensive jewel, some silver kitchen supply, shovels and pliers, and a few pretty things to dress herself up. His Highness her groom shall receive a set of laces, next to a golden set Point d'Espange and other treats sent to him on the occasion of Holy Christ's feast. Now the Princess Ulrike had asked for a while to receive the King's portrait as a Christmas present, and it was among her gifts; when the third prince (i.e. Heinrich) noticed, he asked for a portrait as well, and did receive one, about which this princess showed herself somewhat disgusted. The King went on Christmas Eve in his own person with an entourage to the local Christmas Market and bought entertaining pleasantries for the little princes and princesses. (...) At the first day of Christmas, the widowed Madam General v. Dörfling had had carried a good bowl of cooked Sauerkraut with a roasted fat goose to the palace, as his Majestly loves to eat this dish, and on the holiday a bowl with beautiful apples, which has been received very graciously.
Later, we have, in the summer of 1731: (S)ince the oldest Princess has submitted herself completely to the King's will, she's been gifted with much rich clothing, a purse and other precious triflings; and thus there can be no doubt (as to the reconciliation). Princess Ulrike, who since a year has been the King's greatest favourite and had been preferred to her older sister Sophie, has now been degraded due to a minor mistake. Despite her being only eleven years of Age, she still possess a great mind and thus a noble spirit; and thus she's very touchy about this and torments herself: at the King's demand, the Queen has taken the diamond earrings which the Queen of Sweden had given (Ulrike) some years ago away, and then she had to sit at the table with her youngest sister Princess (Amalie) despite having been allowed to sit for a year at the King's table.
Policinello: thank you for the data. I wonder whether the youngest prince means literally the youngest prince, i.e. Ferdinand, which would put this event in 1736 or 1737, or the youngest prince at the time it happened, in which case it could have been Heinrich or even AW. Now if it was Ferdinand, Morgenstern could have witnessed it himself, but what makes me hesitate is that this would be rather late in life for FW to object ot French comedy. Incidentally, if Policinello is traditionally depicted with a humpback, I can think of another reason why FW finds it objectionable for one of his sons to play the role - his father, F1, who had a humpback and hence the nickname "der schiefe Fritz".
Btw, that this happened per se, I do believe, because children after watching a play calling each other with the names of the characters and playing them is definitely a thing, especially this bunch of kids, most of whom in various degrees are into performing later.
FW admitting it's not to everyone's taste doesn't mean FW won't make everyone watch it! Just that in Morgenstern's hearing he's been known to say, yeah, okay, I like it but I get that not everyone does.
Re: He's just a soul whose intentions were good: Morgenstern on FW - A
Date: 2021-03-14 01:35 pm (UTC)I've seen the bad health argument, and while I'm sure the flare-ups didn't help, and I *know* the alcohol consumption didn't help, let's not remember that the Tiny Terror years were equally out of control! Between swallowing shoelaces/shoe fasteners, standing on the ledge of a window and threatening to jump to get his way, throwing his chamberlain out the window, beating up G2, beating up the Prince of Courland...his track record is pretty damn consistent throughout his life.
I wonder whether the youngest prince means literally the youngest prince, i.e. Ferdinand, which would put this event in 1736 or 1737, or the youngest prince at the time it happened, in which case it could have been Heinrich or even AW.
I was wondering the exact same thing.
FW admitting it's not to everyone's taste doesn't mean FW won't make everyone watch it!
Fair!