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cahnETA: Whoops, I missed my cue -- this might as well be the next discussion post, I guess! :)
This is about the fic I didn't author (I have another reveals post for the fics I did author).
So my goal this Yuletide was NOT to write any historical fandom (because hard!) and just enjoy the excellent stuff that other people wrote. And... that sort of happened? I didn't end up authoring anything history-intensive? Buuuuut I ended up spending a lot more time than I did on any of my own fics working withmildred_of_midgard on her fic, which she was worried about being able to pull off because she had had this completely insane idea to write a long casefic about Frederick the Great that every time I turned around had another twist put in :P :) She supplied me with what we called a "rough opal in matrix" bus pass casefic, and I cut away the matrix that remained and in some cases carved the opal -- that is to say, writing additional text for some of the scenes, what we liked to call "putting in feels," and in at least two cases entirely rewriting and/or restructuring the scene she'd written. She didn't always keep what I wrote (which we'd agreed upon in the beginning), but when she did (which was most of the time :) ) she then went in and rewrote/restructured what I put in to wordsmith (some of the words I gave her were really rough) and match her style, adding even more scenes -- that is, polishing it up and adding some gold and diamonds -- and voila, a beautiful pendant, I mean, story :)
I'm really proud of it and also it was really fun and also what I could handle this year, especially because mildred did all the parts I thought were hard and also wrote all the parts involving actual history or subtle AU before I was brought in so I didn't actually have to know historical stuff (though I guess I will never forget the battle of Leuthen now), and took full responsibility for how the whole thing turned out, so all I had to do was be like "Here, I'll write some rough feels for you for this scene!" The funny part was that I would often then write a paragraph justifying why I *had* to write the scene the way I did, and more likely than not mildred would be like, "yeah, I was sure you would do that, of course it should be written like that." (The most glaring example of this was where I inserted the Letter of Doom at the climax. I was worried there was some reason she didn't want it there, but she said, no, she just didn't have time to put it in herself and was just trusting me to do that :) ) She started jokingly calling me her "other self," to which I replied that it was with 1000% less angst and frustration -- as Frederick the Great's brother was his "other self" (which actually comes up in the fic) that he could trust to do all kinds of competent things, but they had a relationship that was, um, fraught? radioactive? Whereas this was just fun :)
Mildred did so much more than I did (we estimated a 90%/10% word ratio, not even counting the part where she wordsmithed a lot of my text) that I felt very uncomfortable being listed as a co-author, but hey, ~3000 words is a respectable Yuletide fic length :)
Yet They Grind Exceedingly Small (30384 words) by mildred_of_midgard
Chapters: 5/5
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF, Historical RPF
Rating: Teen And Up Audiences
Warnings: Major Character Death
Relationships: Anna Amalie von Preußen & Wilhelmine von Preußen, Anna Amalie von Preußen & Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen, Wilhelmine von Preußen & Elisabeth Friederike Sophie von Brandenburg-Bayreuth, Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great & Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia
Characters: Anna Amalie von Preußen (1723-1787), Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia (1709-1758), Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen | Henry of Prussia (1726-1802), Elisabeth Friederike Sophie von Brandenburg-Bayreuth (1732-1780), Wilhelmine von Hesse-Kassel (1726-1808), August Wilhelm von Preußen | Augustus William of Prussia (1722-1758), Alcmene 1 | Frederick the Great's Italian Greyhound, Voltaire (Writer), Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Additional Tags: Alternate Universe - Canon Divergence, Dysfunctional Family, Suicide, Alternate Universe - Dark, Siblings, Canon-Typical Violence, Mystery, Tide of History Challenge
Summary:
This is about the fic I didn't author (I have another reveals post for the fics I did author).
So my goal this Yuletide was NOT to write any historical fandom (because hard!) and just enjoy the excellent stuff that other people wrote. And... that sort of happened? I didn't end up authoring anything history-intensive? Buuuuut I ended up spending a lot more time than I did on any of my own fics working with
mildred_of_midgard on her fic, which she was worried about being able to pull off because she had had this completely insane idea to write a long casefic about Frederick the Great that every time I turned around had another twist put in :P :) She supplied me with what we called a "rough opal in matrix" bus pass casefic, and I cut away the matrix that remained and in some cases carved the opal -- that is to say, writing additional text for some of the scenes, what we liked to call "putting in feels," and in at least two cases entirely rewriting and/or restructuring the scene she'd written. She didn't always keep what I wrote (which we'd agreed upon in the beginning), but when she did (which was most of the time :) ) she then went in and rewrote/restructured what I put in to wordsmith (some of the words I gave her were really rough) and match her style, adding even more scenes -- that is, polishing it up and adding some gold and diamonds -- and voila, a beautiful pendant, I mean, story :)I'm really proud of it and also it was really fun and also what I could handle this year, especially because mildred did all the parts I thought were hard and also wrote all the parts involving actual history or subtle AU before I was brought in so I didn't actually have to know historical stuff (though I guess I will never forget the battle of Leuthen now), and took full responsibility for how the whole thing turned out, so all I had to do was be like "Here, I'll write some rough feels for you for this scene!" The funny part was that I would often then write a paragraph justifying why I *had* to write the scene the way I did, and more likely than not mildred would be like, "yeah, I was sure you would do that, of course it should be written like that." (The most glaring example of this was where I inserted the Letter of Doom at the climax. I was worried there was some reason she didn't want it there, but she said, no, she just didn't have time to put it in herself and was just trusting me to do that :) ) She started jokingly calling me her "other self," to which I replied that it was with 1000% less angst and frustration -- as Frederick the Great's brother was his "other self" (which actually comes up in the fic) that he could trust to do all kinds of competent things, but they had a relationship that was, um, fraught? radioactive? Whereas this was just fun :)
Mildred did so much more than I did (we estimated a 90%/10% word ratio, not even counting the part where she wordsmithed a lot of my text) that I felt very uncomfortable being listed as a co-author, but hey, ~3000 words is a respectable Yuletide fic length :)
Yet They Grind Exceedingly Small (30384 words) by mildred_of_midgard
Chapters: 5/5
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF, Historical RPF
Rating: Teen And Up Audiences
Warnings: Major Character Death
Relationships: Anna Amalie von Preußen & Wilhelmine von Preußen, Anna Amalie von Preußen & Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen, Wilhelmine von Preußen & Elisabeth Friederike Sophie von Brandenburg-Bayreuth, Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great & Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia
Characters: Anna Amalie von Preußen (1723-1787), Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia (1709-1758), Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen | Henry of Prussia (1726-1802), Elisabeth Friederike Sophie von Brandenburg-Bayreuth (1732-1780), Wilhelmine von Hesse-Kassel (1726-1808), August Wilhelm von Preußen | Augustus William of Prussia (1722-1758), Alcmene 1 | Frederick the Great's Italian Greyhound, Voltaire (Writer), Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Additional Tags: Alternate Universe - Canon Divergence, Dysfunctional Family, Suicide, Alternate Universe - Dark, Siblings, Canon-Typical Violence, Mystery, Tide of History Challenge
Summary:
January 1758. Prince William is dead, some say of a broken heart. Frederick wants to absolve himself of blame for William's death. Henry schemes to end the Third Silesian War on his terms. Amalie and Wilhelmine team up to find out what really happened to their brother. Alcmene just wants to be told she's a good dog.
Friedrich: Mythos und Tragödie
Date: 2021-01-14 05:27 am (UTC)So I wrote most of this and then went back and found the discussion with
It was interesting coming to this as someone who now knows a little, versus if I'd watched it a year ago, and I was impressed by how historical it actually was! Maybe I just have super low expectations due to the way US entertainment generally treats historical subjects (Hamilton was a notable exception in mostly trying to follow the history and for the most part not over-romanticizing it) but... I loved that we got August the Strong and Grumpkow and Seckendorff and even a mention of Maupertuis :D and that it didn't shy away from what Old Fritz became, and how that contrasted with Young Fritz. (Which really might be American Broadway low expectations on my part? Like, if, oh, say, Frank Wildhorn or Andrew Lloyd Weber (who admittedly isn't American, but same deal) got hold of Fritz' story, I suspect there would be... a lot less of Old Fritz in it.)
I also thought it got a lot of the feel right; the one thing I kind of thought was weird -- besides the big het elephant in the room, getting to that -- was how Wilhelmine was played as basically relentlessly cheery, which was definitely not the impression I'd gotten of her from the memoirs. I mean, there's some libretto textual evidence that she's putting on the best face possible, and also her function in the musical as foil and central relationship with Fritz means it might work better for her to be cheerful -- but it was still a little ?? to me.
I'd purposely tried not to spoil myself by e.g. reading
Fritz is definitely played as more into Katte than strictly platonic friendship, but there was absolutely no chemistry or attempted chemistry between them, either romantic or platonic, and not even any really good friendship moments. Some of this was Katte's actor, who seemed almost to be shying away from Young Fritz sometimes, but a lot of it was just the lack of any text. (Contrast Rodrigo and Carlo in Verdi; you could even cut the friendship duet bits of Dio che nell'alma infondere, and act it totally non-slashily, and Act II would still give you no doubt of the friendship between these two.) Which makes it not very resonant at all when Katte is executed, much less as the ghost who is talking to Old Fritz. Knowing the
shiphistory (and thinking of it a bit as a dramatization of mildred's Pulvis et Umbra) I still enjoyed it, I guess. And yet the part of me that was watching it as a self-contained musical was like "...why is Katte here?" and I imagine if you didn't really know the history very well it would not make much sense at all!(I must admit laughing a bit when they do the letter-play where Katte drops a letter which Grumbkow picks up and gives to FW, and FW is all "Katte has betrayed me!!" Schiller strikes again, I'm betting! :) Or perhaps it's convergent evolution -- after all, it's rather easier, and therefore dramatically sensible, to think of FW feeling personally betrayed by Katte, and letters are a canon-relevant way of getting that information across... but...)
Random bit that totally made me laugh (given how much knowledge about Fritz there was on display, I feel that someone here was having fun):
Old Fritz: I got Voltaire to come see me! He read my poems! [Direct quote from prinzsorgenfrei's subtitles:] And that he came all the way to Potsdam shows how much he liked them!
Me: Oh Fritz. Oh Fritz.
I thought Fritz & Wilhelmine was quite well done, and though someone not in fandom wouldn't necessarily come out of the play shipping it (though there was definitely subtext there, which I thought was hilarious), I totally bought their close relationship in a way I didn't buy Fritz & Katte at all. The Wilhelmine scene where she argued with him about wanting Bayreuth to remain neutral was amazing. (And I thought that was a brilliant elision of history; lunch with MT, much as I adore that bit of history, wouldn't have worked nearly as well in a two-hour musical.) And now,
And at the very end of the musical, I kinda loved that Katte slipped away during the final trio, leaving Young Fritz and Wilhelmine alone together. Though speaking of incestuous subtext: not only does Katte disappear, no longer coming between the two of them if you know what I mean, but she is wearing a white dress in the finale which I realize is supposed to symbolize that she is dead, but for this American audience member it also LOOKS LIKE A WEDDING DRESS and they're standing up on a platform like two figures on a wedding cake! I'm just saying.
The music was for the most part...
Old Fritz (Chris Murray) is in my opinion by far the strongest singer in the cast; he's really good, with a resonant voice. So good that when it goes from his powerful solo (Ebenbild) to the finale where Young Fritz, Wilhelmine, and Katte have a trio, I had a moment of disorientation of "...why did the singing just get substantially more mediocre? Oh, because Old Fritz isn't singing anymore," which is probably not what you want your audience to be thinking at the grand finale. (I've now gone back and looked at the previous comments and saw
Of course, this was the other thing I was thinking near the end:
Everyone in the musical: Old Fritz, you're such a terrible person that you're all alone!
Me: What about Fredersdorf?? ...oh, well, I guess he's dead at that point. What about Heinrich?
Heinrich: Leave me out of this!
Re: Friedrich: Mythos und Tragödie
Date: 2021-01-14 07:42 am (UTC)Like, if, oh, say, Frank Wildhorn or Andrew Lloyd Weber (who admittedly isn't American, but same deal) got hold of Fritz' story, I suspect there would be... a lot less of Old Fritz in it.)
I'd say none. Hence my assumption that "Fritz, the Disney version", would blame all the worst stuff on Grumbkow & Seckendorff as the minions of the Evil Austrian Emperor, and would end with now crowned Fritz righteously invading the Evil Austrian Empire and triumphing.
Wilhelmine played as relentlessly cheery: I hear you. Mind you, back in the day when the early Salon had reawakened my interest and I checked out A03 for Fritz fic, what little Wilhelmne there was in those stories (before Mildred started to write her into her stories for me, THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!) was also relentlessly cheerful and uplifting and comforting. I remember complaining about this. Now the reason for this is obvious - the writers want a character to comfort Fritz and cheer him up, and the way Wilhelmine herself was also emotionally damaged and neurotic is evident only if you bother to read more of the source material than posted on Tumblr -, but I would like to point out that the 1980s tv two parter "Der Thronfolger" also has Wilhelmine doing the comforting of Fritz, but it doesn't have her relentlessly cheery. (It even includes a bit to indicate her relationship with her mother when SD critiques her posture and asks for "contenance" in her behavior). So even if you need Wilhelmine primarly as a supporting (in both senses of the word) character, you can show she's not a bundle of joy all the time.
To return to the musical, at first I assumed it might also be that the actress/singer was one note and couldn't do more, but her big argument scene with Fritz in act 2 blew that assumption out of the water because she is great there (and here the script allows for a whole scala of emotions).
Fritz is definitely played as more into Katte than strictly platonic friendship, but there was absolutely no chemistry or attempted chemistry between them, either romantic or platonic, and not even any really good friendship moments.
So much agreed, and never mind history, that's truly to the detriment of the story the musical itself is trying to tell. If Katte and Fritz aren't believable good friends (even without the slightest bit of subtext), then Katte's actions make no sense, and Fritz still being haunted by him years later in both senses of the word does not resonate in the way it needs to. Your comparison/contrast to Carlos and Rodrigo, even if you'd cut the friendship duet, is astute.
The Wilhelmine scene where she argued with him about wanting Bayreuth to remain neutral was amazing.
Wasn't it just? This was perhaps the greatest surprise to me when I watched the musical, because the bits that are on YouTube don't include it and give no indication of it, and it is so very good. (It also means vindicates the actress playing Wilhelmine as in, clearly the relentless cheeriness earlier was how she was directed to play it, she can and does offer more.) Of course, it also helps that Chris Murray is now playing Fritz and he, as we agree, is the superior singer (and actor). But seriously, much as the rest of the script is workmanlike as is the music, here it deserves credit for having found a way to fuse various complicated historical developments into a stage-friendly shorthand for a two hour musical which nonetheless is layered and really, really effective.
And now,
Indeed. You can imagine how when reading "Grind" for the first time and arrived at Amalie deeply curtseying in front of Heinrich, I thought "ohhhhh, did someone watch the musical after all?"
the neat thing was how FW and Fritz traded their melodic line back and forth, prefiguring the way Fritz takes on FW-like qualities later on.
See, that's the kind of astute musical diagnosis none of us other salon members could provide.
Everyone in the musical: Old Fritz, you're such a terrible person that you're all alone!
Me: What about Fredersdorf?? ...oh, well, I guess he's dead at that point. What about Heinrich?
Heinrich: Leave me out of this!
LOL. I bet. (Now someone just needs to compose the music to my script of Lehndorff!The Musical.)
Re: Friedrich: Mythos und Tragödie
Date: 2021-01-14 01:34 pm (UTC)Lol! No, physical gestures of loyalty just happen to be one of
what little Wilhelmne there was in those stories (before Mildred started to write her into her stories for me, THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!) was also relentlessly cheerful and uplifting and comforting. I remember complaining about this.
That's why I started writing her into stories for you! Thank you in return for writing erastes!Suhm and Peter Keith (someday) into stories for me. :)
Re: Friedrich: Mythos und Tragödie
Date: 2021-01-15 05:50 am (UTC)...okay, I think I agree with this but I can't articulate it, but I would like you to! Someday, I know now is perhaps not the time :P
And thank you again for putting in the deep curtsey for me :D <3
Loyalty gesture tropes
Date: 2021-01-15 08:01 pm (UTC)I've been trying to articulate this for a while now, since realizing you shared my trope but every time you wanted to put it in one of our fics, I had a "Yes, but not there!" gut level reaction.
Every time I try to articulate "I prefer X to Y," I end up with some reason that's not true. Basically, as you know, I haven't been able to figure out why certain characters and pairings do or don't give me the feels in this fandom. (Aside from Fritz, who is 100% my usual type in every single fandom ever.)
If we look at the specific occasions you've put it in in our fics: Amalie to Heinrich doesn't fit my deployment of this trope because I think I prefer it when the character performing the gesture has complete and undivided loyalty and love for the recipient. I don't use it for love/hate. This is also why it doesn't work for me when Heinrich does it to Fritz. For Fredersdorf and Fritz, I *would* use this trope, but much later in their relationship when they know each other better and have become life partners.
Thinking about it, I *think* I tend to use it as a means of hurt/comfort from the character performing the gesture to the recipient. Which is why it almost works for me from Fredersdorf to Fritz, it's just too soon.
Now, I have no objection to it being deployed in the places you and Selena put or requested it! It just doesn't push my personal id buttons.
And thank you again for putting in the deep curtsey for me :D <3
My pleasure! As noted, I don't mind at all.
Re: Loyalty gesture tropes
Date: 2021-01-16 05:19 am (UTC)Fair enough! Yes, that's really different. I actually think I'd probably be less likely to prefer it in that case, because as I said, I prefer loyalty gestures to say something in addition to the loyalty -- either commenting on a complex loyalty situation, like Amalie->Heinrich or Heinrich->Fritz, or a potentially complex situation resulting in a decision to pledge loyalty (young!Fredersdorf->Fritz). (Though that one is also the weakest id-wise for me as well; though still iddy for me, it also functioned as the most over-the-top way Fredersdorf could communicate what he wanted to Fritz.)
Is there a fic (either written by you or someone else) where this is done in a way that pushes your buttons? I mean, not for any reason. :P (And certainly not for any reason right now!)
Re: Loyalty gesture tropes
Date: 2021-01-16 04:31 pm (UTC)Okay, so the only posted fic I can think of where I did this was in Hunger Games fandom. I will spare you reading the 120,000 words (it's in the penultimate scene, of course), but here's the line in question:
Mags sits on the couch and Finnick kneels at her feet, because it's the only way his body can communicate the intensity of I will do anything for you.
The context is that she's just had her stroke and can't talk any more, and he's all HOW CAN I HELP. The two of them have a Fritz/Wilhelmine type relationship in my fic: codependent, nonsexual, but borderline emotionally incestuous. (I guess not literally incest, since they're not genetically related, but ykwim.) At the very end of the series, Finnick will retrospectively question whether this was healthy, but at this point--end of the first installment--he's all in.
Speaking of whom, I still don't know why I can't seem to warm up to Wilhelmine in this fandom. I should be right there for the intense, supportive, codependent, abuse-surviving sibling relationship! I have at least two other sibling pairs in my head that are exactly this (one is an OC that exists only in my head, the other is Boromir and Faramir). I've written two fics featuring her and read her memoirs and her bio and I *still* can't summon up any feels for her. I'm very confused. I'm trying, guys! Maybe when I get to French and read her letters it will help.
(Ditto Fritz/Fredersdorf: given my Childermass and Childermass/Norrell feels, I should be *all over* this ship. Furthermore, I recognize that as important, supportive relationships go, it's far superior objectively to all of Fritz's other relationships. But only thanks to you guys writing me fic have I advanced beyond "meh" to "Okay, yes, I want to see more of this.")
MY BRAIN I do not understand it.
I think I prefer it when the character performing the gesture has complete and undivided loyalty and love for the recipient.
Fair enough! Yes, that's really different.
Yeah, that's why I never put this gesture in the right places for you unless you tel me to. :)
Re: Loyalty gesture tropes
Date: 2021-01-16 05:09 pm (UTC)BTW, one of the hopes I had when reading the "Zeithain" novel, which after all had been advertised as the first Katte-centric take (which it is), was to get a hand on who he was outside of his death context. In the hopes that I'd come to feel more for him beyond being sorry (and eternally angry on his behalf at FW). But alas Michael Roes distracted me too much with his Daddy issues for that, i.e. his decision to triple the number of Evil Dads by adding Hans Heinrich and the father of his OC Philip Stanhope to it.
Since you bring up "Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell" - since that nearly overlaps with our era, time wise, I must say that I now want the AU where, disregarding the exact date when magic returns to England and pushing it a bit more back, the 7 Years War is fought with added magic. Seydlitz is a magician, clearly. Andrew Mitchell is, too, but doesn't have much practical talent, just enough for it to come in useful now and then, but he keeps it secret because he likes being an envoy far better than if he'd have to use his little magical talent for the government. Fredersdorf was a magician (this is how he could do so many jobs at the same time). Fritz very much wanted to be a magician, but alas, he's not (though he knows how to use them). Voltaire and Émilie: both magicians.
Re: Loyalty gesture tropes
Date: 2021-01-16 05:37 pm (UTC)BTW, one of the hopes I had when reading the "Zeithain" novel, which after all had been advertised as the first Katte-centric take (which it is), was to get a hand on who he was outside of his death context. In the hopes that I'd come to feel more for him beyond being sorry (and eternally angry on his behalf at FW).
Yeah, based on your review and what I've read (it's still on my list for when my German is slightly better!), it does seem disappointing in this regard. Alas. Thank you for your extensive research on my behalf in spite of not having deep feels! <3
Fredersdorf was a magician (this is how he could do so many jobs at the same time).
And the alchemy!
Fritz very much wanted to be a magician, but alas, he's not (though he knows how to use them).
Awww. Does he at least have a fairy servant? Magician or no, I feel like he would acquire one somehow.
Voltaire and Émilie: both magicians.
YES. YES, this.
Re: Loyalty gesture tropes
Date: 2021-01-17 01:52 pm (UTC)Oh God. This totally explains his readers. Why one of them hightails it out of Prussia (Darget), one sells him out to France (de Prades), and one fictionalizes him in order to cope with him. Clearly, what Henri de Catt was trying to do was a complicated reality warping spell to make Fritz more bearabe (to him) by literally rewriting him. It just didn't work because of leftover Fredersdorf protection spells woven around Fritz.
Re: Loyalty gesture tropes
From:Re: Loyalty gesture tropes
Date: 2021-01-20 05:44 am (UTC)...really what I ought to do is write Katte/Fritz, I suppose. It worked for Fredersdorf! :D
omg, Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell fusion is spectacular, I love it :D Of course Fredersdorf is a magician! And Voltaire and Émilie :D
Re: Loyalty gesture tropes
Date: 2021-01-23 03:13 pm (UTC)What I'm hearing is that I should start a Fritz/Katte fic, and rope you into finishing it with me. :P
More seriously, the plan is to get my German up to speed, then read a bunch of Katte-related material, then see if I get inspired for a fic. So maybe this summer?
I've been quietly marveling that I've posted *so* *little* Fritz/Katte (and no living Katte!), but then I realize..."Pulvis et Umbra" was posted one month before my sleep went to pieces in 2019. Since then, I've only written (or at least posted) for exchanges, and nobody's requested Katte. But if I can hang onto my current momentum, hopefully I can start writing for myself at some point, and make use of my ability to read German. :D
I have pipe dreams of learning French, doing fic research in French, and then writing fic based on that research, because the fix-it fic is set in France, but...this all presupposes I maintain my momentum for that long. But we should be good for German, at least.
(Sometimes I honestly don't know whether I study history in order to write fic, or write fic in order to learn history. Now I've added language studies into the mix. Am I learning German so I can learn history? Am I learning German so I can research fic? Am I researching fic so I can acquire some knowledge of German? Am I studying history so I can acquire some knowledge of German? A little of all of the above, I think.)
Re: Loyalty gesture tropes
From:Re: Loyalty gesture tropes
From:Re: Loyalty gesture tropes
From:Re: Friedrich: Mythos und Tragödie
Date: 2021-01-15 05:43 am (UTC)If Katte and Fritz aren't believable good friends (even without the slightest bit of subtext), then Katte's actions make no sense, and Fritz still being haunted by him years later in both senses of the word does not resonate in the way it needs to.
Yes this!!
Of course, it also helps that Chris Murray is now playing Fritz and he, as we agree, is the superior singer (and actor). But seriously, much as the rest of the script is workmanlike as is the music, here it deserves credit for having found a way to fuse various complicated historical developments into a stage-friendly shorthand for a two hour musical which nonetheless is layered and really, really effective.
YES. Like you, (a) I wondered whether acting against Murray helped her acting skills as well -- he was scary! -- though (b) I also thought they were both helped by the script here, which yes, I thought did a great job of this scene.
Indeed. You can imagine how when reading "Grind" for the first time and arrived at Amalie deeply curtseying in front of Heinrich, I thought "ohhhhh, did someone watch the musical after all?"
Haha, no, as mildred says, I just wanted it :) Physical gestures of loyalty: my jam. Physical gestures of complex loyalty relationships where the gesture itself gets across something about the complex nature of the loyalty and the relationship? I will go ANYWHERE for that, even to the extent of pestering the person for whom I'm betaing to put it in :D
(What I was actually thinking of is one of the last scenes in The Perilous Gard by Elizabeth Pope (which won the Newbery Honor) -- I don't know if you've read it, but it's a YA-ish about a young lady-in-waiting to Princess Elizabeth (later Elizabeth I) who gets exiled to a rural manor and has adventures there with a version of the Fairy Folk that I loved so much that it's forever ruined me for most other depictions of it -- I love the book very much, though it's out of print at present.)
Re: Friedrich: Mythos und Tragödie
Date: 2021-01-15 08:04 pm (UTC)Nope, go for it! Turns out I no longer need reading group for German, nor do I even need quota and yelling! German has just gotten easy enough that I no longer have to fight to find the willpower to do it every day. Will let you know if something comes up such that I need to be yelled at again, but you reading things on your own is fine. I'll get to Orieux eventually, but not this month.
even to the extent of pestering the person for whom I'm betaing to put it in :D
:D
Re: Friedrich: Mythos und Tragödie
Date: 2021-01-14 09:09 am (UTC)there was absolutely no chemistry or attempted chemistry between them, either romantic or platonic, and not even any really good friendship moments.
Yes!!! That's such a shame, like, at least let them be friends?? The only way we know they're friends is because Ghost-Katte tells us. "This was the day we met as well", it was indeed, Hans Hermann, the day you didn't look at him ONCE and were instead laser-focussed on his sister :'D (Give them a damn duet, maybe cut "Spiel mich", idk...)
Even Burte manages to make them seem closer and Fritz is hardly in that travesty of a play :'D
I imagine if you didn't really know the history very well it would not make much sense at all!
My friend got me the DVD back in 2016 and I remember watching it, being very confused, and thinking that maybe I got something wrong when reading basic stuff about the historical background (Because when did people ever lie in a stage play? :'D). I was rather distraught and thought that maybe my grandma had lied to me when she said "Yeah, so, that's Friedrich and that's his boyfriend". Not sure why I was ready to trust this thing over my history teacher grandma, but... I mean, at least my confusion got me to read Wilhelmine's memoir :'D
although it's not the same melody as Die Schande Preußens, it's got enough harmonic commonality that on first watch-through I wondered if it was the same tune, which maybe was intentional and if so good job.
The callback they made in that scene was one to "Das preußische Prinzip", FW's solo from the very beginnning, so the general vibe of FW was definitely there :D They just sped it up a little I believe... Maybe they wanted to put the focus on FW's parenting "working out" in the end and less on "he likes war now"? Idk.
Heinrich: Leave me out of this!
Honestly, the things I'd give to see Heinrich in a musical... Maybe he can inherit one of the overly high and rather inaccurate women's wigs :'D Maybe a tapdance number...
Re: Friedrich: Mythos und Tragödie
Date: 2021-01-15 05:30 am (UTC)Also, gotta amend the "no catchy tunes" thing -- now that I went back and listened again to the FW/Fritz tune it actually has gotten stuck in my head a bit, so I have to give them props for that too :)
(Because when did people ever lie in a stage play? :'D)
Heeee! (Also this probably dates me, but it reminds me of this Simpson's moment!) But yeah, the thing that's so weird is that I could forgive it not making sense historically (after all it's a musical), but it doesn't even make sense within the context of the musical itself!
Honestly, the things I'd give to see Heinrich in a musical... Maybe he can inherit one of the overly high and rather inaccurate women's wigs :'D Maybe a tapdance number...
I AM THERE FOR THIS :D And of course as selenak said there's her Lehndorff musical :D
But really I am gunning for him having his very own musical! (Maybe with Christian Borle playing Heinrich, now that he's made a bit of a career of playing not-conventionally-handsome leading men :D )
Re: Friedrich: Mythos und Tragödie
Date: 2021-01-16 05:20 am (UTC)Re: Friedrich: Mythos und Tragödie
Date: 2021-01-23 01:06 pm (UTC)Re: Friedrich: Mythos und Tragödie
Date: 2021-01-26 04:34 am (UTC)Re: Friedrich: Mythos und Tragödie
Date: 2021-01-14 01:30 pm (UTC)No doubt! But it also follows canon rather closely: don't forget the letter that Fritz writes to Katte during the escape attempt, but forgets to address it to the Katte in Berlin, so it ends up with a different Katte, a cousin in a different part of Germany, who reads it, realizes what's going on, and warns his brother-in-law Rochow, who is Fritz's governor and is on the trip to keep an eye on Fritz. Rochow warns FW, and the misdirected letter ends up in FW's hands a couple days after the escape attempt, either directly from cousin Katte or via Rochow, I forget. Naturally the musical would substitute Grumbkow, because who aside from us in salon would know who Rochow is? ;)
As for betrayal, part of the rationale for the execution was that Katte was part of the Gens d'armes, i.e. FW's personal bodyguard regiment, so it was a betrayal on that level, even if they didn't have that kind of Philip/Rodrigo relationship.
I'm glad you got to see the musical! But this is all I have time to say for now. :)
Re: Cousin Katte's Correspondence
Date: 2021-01-14 02:02 pm (UTC)I am so sorry for randomly jumping in like this, but the letters cousin Katte (Rittmeister Hans Friedrich von Katte) wrote were printed in Kloosterhuis (and Hinrichs) and they are quite interesting! :D
He wrote to Daniel von Rochow first and told him to keep an eye on Fritz no matter what, then he wrote to Friedrich Wilhelm von Rochow to tell him the details of what he knew and that Lieutenant Katte of the Gens d'armes must have lost his mind completely and will end them all :'D
According to Hans Friedrich, Hans Hermann actually told Fritz to send letters through him and Fritz met up with HF at some point (and asked "Huh? Why is my Katte not with you?"). HF states further, that, when he told Fritz that Berlin-Katte had difficulties getting out of the city, Fritz reacted with "Damn. Okay, so, do you want to come with me then?", to which HF answered that he does not and that Fritz should really not run away in the first place. Fritz then proceeded to spam him with letters, but HF said that he had a fever and couldn't come. The letter to Daniel also said "please don't tell the Crown Prince that I told you, he would never forgive me".
HF's letter definitely sounds more like the whole thing was another idea that backfired on Fritz rather than just an accidental mix up (since HF apparently only wrote to the Rochows after a few letters from Berlin-Katte had already passed through his hands and Fritz had told him about the whole plan). Although I assume the first letter (i.e. the one saying "come meet me" before reacting to HF with "hey, you're not my Katte") could have been the wrongly addressed one?
Re: Cousin Katte's Correspondence
Date: 2021-01-14 02:13 pm (UTC)Thank you very much for this write-up! I will continue assiduously working on my German so I can read Kloosterhuis myself. (Nearly 25 pages of Horowski yesterday just after dinner, which is very encouraging.)
Re: Cousin Katte's Correspondence
Date: 2021-01-14 02:54 pm (UTC)I'm not *blaming* (most of) the people who didn't want to get involved and saw coming a mile away that this was a really dangerous idea, but I totally see how Fritz ended up with trust issues. </3
Re: Cousin Katte's Correspondence
Date: 2021-01-15 05:53 am (UTC)Re: Cousin Katte's Correspondence
Date: 2021-01-15 01:32 pm (UTC)