"He, too, is Alexander", loyal but never expoitative, unafraid to talk back to Alexander when needed, which is emphasiized in the most popular Alexander biography read at the time, the Quintus Curtius Rufus one
That's interesting, because while that's definitely the characterization of him that I and others have picked up on, what I recall is Alexander saying something along the lines of him loving Hephaistion the most but respecting Krateros the most, because Hephaistion was loyal to Alexander the man and Krateros to Alexander the king. But I think that was in Plutarch, not Curtius.
as time went on, the attitudes changed. By the 1760s, a self proclaimed libertine and free thinker like John Wilkes isn't just aggressively heterosexual but aggressively attacking homoerotic relationships as decadent and coded into princely depravity and tyranny.
Huh, I didn't realize it had begun that early.
The following July, Hanbury Williams wrote an ode to Horatio Townshend that was even more explicit:
These envoys!
As the London Evening Post commented in June 1730, 'all Ranks are infected to that Degree, that the Magistrates are almost at a Loss how to Extinguish this Infernal Heat', and cited by name two prominent Dutch politicians suspected of the crime.
Wooow, that's right as the escape attempt via the Netherlands is happening. Must keep this in mind!
The Daily Journal went further and described the fury of the Amsterdam crowd when it became known that those who had been convicted of sodomy amongst 'the richer Sort of People' had been granted the privilege of a private execution.
Sigh. This is one of those cases where both sides are terribly wrong.
Thus, when Pulteney wrote of how the 'unnatural, reigning Vice' of which he accused Hervey had 'of late, been severely punish'd in a neighbouring Nation', he was making both a highly emotive connection that his readers would have immediately understood-and suggesting, by implication, that Hervey deserved the same brutal punishment.
*blink* Wooow.
You may have noticed from the dates that Hervey establishing himself as royal Chamberlain and as the confidant to Queen Caroline and Hervey's friendship with Fritz of Wales happen exactly at the same time. This wasn't clear to me before, and it's hugely important.
Yes, I hadn't picked up on that either, so thank you for spelling that out.
Bubb Dodington (what a name!).
I laughed. It reminds me of an Eddie Izzard skit where he's imagining Mr. and Mrs. Humperdinck saying,
"What shall we call our son so he does not get the shit kicked out of him at school?"
“We shall call him Engelbert!"
"Good, that'll work!"
When it comes to "why did Hervey respond to the breakup to badly?", the authors don't think it was about Anne Vane as such, because Hervey's set was fine with mistress sharing more often than not, and Hervey never comes across caring about Anne Vane for more than sex. (Especially when compared to the love letters he writes to Stephen Fox or Algarotti.) But being dumped for a man like Dodington, that's what hurt.
That makes sense. Hervey's set was fine with mistress sharing more often than not was the impression I had, so I was a bit surprised that it would trigger a breakup, but of course individual dynamics vary widely. But losing something that seems to have been more central to his identity being that distressing, makes sense.
but on the other allowed the two of them to express their affection scandal free and in public; no one, not even the most relentless Hervey hater who accused Hervey of having pimped Anne Vane to FoW and of being Sporus and an evil gay etc., ever accused him of having illicit designs on the Queen's virtue, or the Queen to behave in any way inappropriate towards a man not her husband
Well, that's good! And yes, "maternal" would be a good way to try to avert that fate.
In conclusion: how an erastes and eromenos relationship can go truly, badly wrong, even if it remained subtextual between them.
Always with the caveat: in England. (And the Netherlands, apparantly.) We don't have any data (yet) to tell us about other Eurpean countries. I mean, it's telling that in the Bellino episode (always according to his memoirs), young Casanova's problem wasn't "I've fallen in love with a man", but "I've fallen in love with a eunuch" (i.e. the eunuch part was what he didn't want to believe). Now, Bellino does turn out to be a woman in disguise, but he doesn't find out until after he's decided he doesn't care anymore what (s)he is, he loves this person. And the memoirs are of course written by old Casanova in the 1780s, being bored to death in Bohemia, so...
These envoys!
Indeed. Since both Andrew Mitchell and Charles Hanbury Williams turn out to have been bi, I'm starting to eye Guy Dickens and Charles Hotham Snr. Clearly, being an envoy is like being a soldier in the Prussian army in terms of likely straightness.
Wooow, that's right as the escape attempt via the Netherlands is happening. Must keep this in mind!
No kidding. Imagine Peter asking after the Come d'Alberville, being disappointed there, going into a Dutch inn only to find out everyone is talking about how more sodomites should be executed in public, as gruesomely as possible. And then he finds out FW is after him. No wonder he threw himself at the mercy of Chesterfield's people and got the hell out of there.
Re: Pulteney ,I forgot to mention my write up of Hervey's memoirs that there's finally an indication as to why he was such an ass to his wife in his last will. He mentions, not once but twice, that "Lady Hervey" was very much taken wit Pulteney and first advised for Hervey to side with him, not Walpole, and later, even after the Duel and the slander, that they should reconcile because she still liked him so much. Whether or not this is true, I suppose if someone had written about me that I deserve to be gruesomely executed and my wife keeps going on about what a great guy he is - or at least that's how I understand her - then I'd be somewhat resentful, too.
But it was England specifically that I had in mind when I wrote that! I had run across something recently that said that London had a thriving "molly" subculture in the 1750s and was the place to be if you were gay. Of course, now that I think of it, the point of comparison was the American colonies, founded in part by Puritans, and even today, you can't go naked into your German sauna if there are Canadian savages Americans about. ;)
So, I guess it's all relative.
Imagine Peter asking after the Come d'Alberville, being disappointed there, going into a Dutch inn only to find out everyone is talking about how more sodomites should be executed in public, as gruesomely as possible. And then he finds out FW is after him.
ZOMG. Though since he's been stationed in Wesel all year, I was imagining he would have heard about the trials as they were happening...but the news is one thing, but yes, imagine walking into a bar and hearing the man on the street go, "More of that, please!"
Also, I've mentioned this before, but Peter was uneducated minor nobility sent to FW's court and exposed to FW at close range during a formative period of his sexuality, which means I do wonder how comfortable he was with being bisexual. (Some very ambiguous statements by Wilhelmine plus Fritz being gay now being our only evidence that Peter *was* bi, incidentally.)
Whether or not this is true, I suppose if someone had written about me that I deserve to be gruesomely executed and my wife keeps going on about what a great guy he is - or at least that's how I understand her - then I'd be somewhat resentful, too.
Ah, this makes a lot of sense! Yeah, people are three-dimensional and complicated. :/
I suppose if someone had written about me that I deserve to be gruesomely executed and my wife keeps going on about what a great guy he is - or at least that's how I understand her - then I'd be somewhat resentful, too.
Heh. Yeah, I guess this is a reminder to me that I always have to be careful to think about both sides (as you are).
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
timeasmymeasure
Re: Hephaistion and Alexander
Date: 2020-09-30 09:48 pm (UTC)That's interesting, because while that's definitely the characterization of him that I and others have picked up on, what I recall is Alexander saying something along the lines of him loving Hephaistion the most but respecting Krateros the most, because Hephaistion was loyal to Alexander the man and Krateros to Alexander the king. But I think that was in Plutarch, not Curtius.
as time went on, the attitudes changed. By the 1760s, a self proclaimed libertine and free thinker like John Wilkes isn't just aggressively heterosexual but aggressively attacking homoerotic relationships as decadent and coded into princely depravity and tyranny.
Huh, I didn't realize it had begun that early.
The following July, Hanbury Williams wrote an ode to Horatio Townshend that was even more explicit:
These envoys!
As the London Evening Post commented in June 1730, 'all Ranks are infected to that Degree, that the Magistrates are almost at a Loss how to Extinguish this Infernal Heat', and cited by name two prominent Dutch politicians suspected of the crime.
Wooow, that's right as the escape attempt via the Netherlands is happening. Must keep this in mind!
The Daily Journal went further and described the fury of the Amsterdam crowd when it became known that those who had been convicted of sodomy amongst 'the richer Sort of People' had been granted the privilege of a private execution.
Sigh. This is one of those cases where both sides are terribly wrong.
Thus, when Pulteney wrote of how the 'unnatural, reigning Vice' of which he accused Hervey had 'of late, been severely punish'd in a neighbouring Nation', he was making both a highly emotive connection that his readers would have immediately understood-and suggesting, by implication, that Hervey deserved the same brutal punishment.
*blink* Wooow.
You may have noticed from the dates that Hervey establishing himself as royal Chamberlain and as the confidant to Queen Caroline and Hervey's friendship with Fritz of Wales happen exactly at the same time. This wasn't clear to me before, and it's hugely important.
Yes, I hadn't picked up on that either, so thank you for spelling that out.
Bubb Dodington (what a name!).
I laughed. It reminds me of an Eddie Izzard skit where he's imagining Mr. and Mrs. Humperdinck saying,
"What shall we call our son so he does not get the shit kicked out of him at school?"
“We shall call him Engelbert!"
"Good, that'll work!"
When it comes to "why did Hervey respond to the breakup to badly?", the authors don't think it was about Anne Vane as such, because Hervey's set was fine with mistress sharing more often than not, and Hervey never comes across caring about Anne Vane for more than sex. (Especially when compared to the love letters he writes to Stephen Fox or Algarotti.) But being dumped for a man like Dodington, that's what hurt.
That makes sense. Hervey's set was fine with mistress sharing more often than not was the impression I had, so I was a bit surprised that it would trigger a breakup, but of course individual dynamics vary widely. But losing something that seems to have been more central to his identity being that distressing, makes sense.
but on the other allowed the two of them to express their affection scandal free and in public; no one, not even the most relentless Hervey hater who accused Hervey of having pimped Anne Vane to FoW and of being Sporus and an evil gay etc., ever accused him of having illicit designs on the Queen's virtue, or the Queen to behave in any way inappropriate towards a man not her husband
Well, that's good! And yes, "maternal" would be a good way to try to avert that fate.
In conclusion: how an erastes and eromenos relationship can go truly, badly wrong, even if it remained subtextual between them.
A fascinating read, and I thank you for it!
Re: Hephaistion and Alexander
Date: 2020-10-01 04:30 pm (UTC)Always with the caveat: in England. (And the Netherlands, apparantly.) We don't have any data (yet) to tell us about other Eurpean countries. I mean, it's telling that in the Bellino episode (always according to his memoirs), young Casanova's problem wasn't "I've fallen in love with a man", but "I've fallen in love with a eunuch" (i.e. the eunuch part was what he didn't want to believe). Now, Bellino does turn out to be a woman in disguise, but he doesn't find out until after he's decided he doesn't care anymore what (s)he is, he loves this person. And the memoirs are of course written by old Casanova in the 1780s, being bored to death in Bohemia, so...
These envoys!
Indeed. Since both Andrew Mitchell and Charles Hanbury Williams turn out to have been bi, I'm starting to eye Guy Dickens and Charles Hotham Snr. Clearly, being an envoy is like being a soldier in the Prussian army in terms of likely straightness.
Wooow, that's right as the escape attempt via the Netherlands is happening. Must keep this in mind!
No kidding. Imagine Peter asking after the Come d'Alberville, being disappointed there, going into a Dutch inn only to find out everyone is talking about how more sodomites should be executed in public, as gruesomely as possible. And then he finds out FW is after him. No wonder he threw himself at the mercy of Chesterfield's people and got the hell out of there.
Re: Pulteney ,I forgot to mention my write up of Hervey's memoirs that there's finally an indication as to why he was such an ass to his wife in his last will. He mentions, not once but twice, that "Lady Hervey" was very much taken wit Pulteney and first advised for Hervey to side with him, not Walpole, and later, even after the Duel and the slander, that they should reconcile because she still liked him so much. Whether or not this is true, I suppose if someone had written about me that I deserve to be gruesomely executed and my wife keeps going on about what a great guy he is - or at least that's how I understand her - then I'd be somewhat resentful, too.
Re: Hephaistion and Alexander
Date: 2020-10-02 11:04 pm (UTC)Always with the caveat: in England.
But it was England specifically that I had in mind when I wrote that! I had run across something recently that said that London had a thriving "molly" subculture in the 1750s and was the place to be if you were gay. Of course, now that I think of it, the point of comparison was the American colonies, founded in part by Puritans, and even today, you can't go naked into your German sauna if there are
Canadian savagesAmericans about. ;)So, I guess it's all relative.
Imagine Peter asking after the Come d'Alberville, being disappointed there, going into a Dutch inn only to find out everyone is talking about how more sodomites should be executed in public, as gruesomely as possible. And then he finds out FW is after him.
ZOMG. Though since he's been stationed in Wesel all year, I was imagining he would have heard about the trials as they were happening...but the news is one thing, but yes, imagine walking into a bar and hearing the man on the street go, "More of that, please!"
Also, I've mentioned this before, but Peter was uneducated minor nobility sent to FW's court and exposed to FW at close range during a formative period of his sexuality, which means I do wonder how comfortable he was with being bisexual. (Some very ambiguous statements by Wilhelmine plus Fritz being gay now being our only evidence that Peter *was* bi, incidentally.)
Whether or not this is true, I suppose if someone had written about me that I deserve to be gruesomely executed and my wife keeps going on about what a great guy he is - or at least that's how I understand her - then I'd be somewhat resentful, too.
Ah, this makes a lot of sense! Yeah, people are three-dimensional and complicated. :/
Re: Hephaistion and Alexander
Date: 2020-10-04 12:40 am (UTC)Heh. Yeah, I guess this is a reminder to me that I always have to be careful to think about both sides (as you are).