I've read up through Fritz becoming king and EC getting the shock of her life.
* When picking out a bride, Heinrich decides on the sister who can best deal with disappointments and humiliation?? Wow, this was not in the Heinrich bio that I recall. It must have been one of those things she turned up after she discovered her fave was a little more problematic than she'd originally realized. I wish I had a citation for that--do you know, selenak? Maybe it'll come later, in her section.
* She thinks Heinrich may have tried and failed to sleep with Mina on their wedding night, and that contributed to his embarrassment around her afterward.
I had the impression it was a speculation/interpretation of hers (given how the marriage turned out, and also the life of the sister who I dimly recall was even more miserable), since I don't recall a citation or passage from a Heinrich letter in either book. Though I read the wives book only once, and a good while ago, though maybe I'm misrenembering, and you'll find such a passage.
She thinks Heinrich may have tried and failed to sleep with Mina on their wedding night, and that contributed to his embarrassment around her afterward.
This, otoh, I recall from both books, because she already hinted at it in the Heinrich bio as well, just more indirectly "The hour of truth had at last come" (once all the wedding festivities were done with) etc. Who knows, it's entirely possible. If I ever were to write a story in which Heinrich actually does have a one night stand with the Countess Bentinck, I'd certainly explain it by using this idea - i.e. he couldn't consumate the marriage, he wanted to find out whether this was Mina-specific or whether he could have sex with a woman at all, and he liked La Bentinck at least enough to hang out with her repeatedly, plus she was essentially the female version of his type. Also, he might have attempted to consumate the marriage because Fritz could have made it a condition for getting the freedom and the money (though I hope your story is right and he didn't demand that part as well).
Conversely, I think it's just as possible he didn't even try, and Mina didn't say anything to anyone because in ye early years, it wasn't a bad deal - she got fussed about by everyone at court, she had AW and Ferdinand for the harmless romance, and Heinrich was at this stage still polite and bothered with the occasional nice present. By the time Heinrich started with the bad behavior (i.e. after AW's death), it was too late to go for an annulment on the grounds of non consumation, if she wanted to endure the scandal, or to try and appeal to Fritz or anything like that.
I had the impression it was a speculation/interpretation of hers...Though I read the wives book only once, and a good while ago, though maybe I'm misrenembering, and you'll find such a passage.
Ah, okay. Well, we'll find out.
This, otoh, I recall from both books, because she already hinted at it in the Heinrich bio as well, just more indirectly "The hour of truth had at last come"
Well, that was way too indirect for me. I took that to mean the hour in which Mina found out her new husband was exclusively gay and she wouldn't be getting any. ;) But I guess she found that out either way.
i.e. he couldn't consumate the marriage, he wanted to find out whether this was Mina-specific or whether he could have sex with a woman at all, and he liked La Bentinck at least enough to hang out with her repeatedly
Ooh, that would be interesting. Though a disappointment for the poor Countess.
plus she was essentially the female version of his type
Down to wearing men's clothes to try to seduce him. ;)
Also, he might have attempted to consumate the marriage because Fritz could have made it a condition for getting the freedom and the money (though I hope your story is right and he didn't demand that part as well).
Well, that was way too indirect for me. I took that to mean the hour in which Mina found out her new husband was exclusively gay and she wouldn't be getting any. ;) But I guess she found that out either way.
HAHAHAHA that's exactly what I thought! But I could see it the other way too.
* AW feels too young to be a father at 22, and his sisters tease him about it. Arranged marriages FTL. But he likes playing with the kids even though he pretends not to, awww.
* Ziebura presents EC's "he's so cruel!" letter to Ferdinand as in response to the no-good condolence letter on her brother, but if Preuss's dates can be trusted, that was in response to *silence*. God knows what she said about the actual letter when he finally got around to (AW pressured him into?) sending it!
* Zimperliese: apparently a translation of bégueule, which means a prudish, prim/affected/simpering, and ridiculous person who gets piqued over little things. Ziebura: "Well, she was certainly extremely sensitive to every slight from Fritz."
* I had forgotten or not realized that Louise had to stay with Sophie von Voss when the court relocated to Magdeburg. So they never talked about AW ever (can see that), and their kids played together and had no idea about AW/Sophie. Huh!
Well, AW/Sophie at this point was old news, and presumably superceded by other gossip (such as AW/Mina). And Sophie hadn't been blatantly prefered by everyone else in the royal family to Louise as well, as Mina had, so there was no reason to resent her because of that. If anything, Sophie - whose husband was something of a gambler and whose marriage supposedly wasn't that stellar - could have had some resentment at Louise for existing (since presumably otherwise AW mighth have married her), but according to the badly edited version of her diaries translated into English, she did not. (As no one resented Louise.)
ETA: Zimperliese: I'm curious - does google translate this as "carpentry guy" again?
Nope, this time it fails to translate it at all and says "If my Zimperliese takes part."
Google just apparently has no clue about "zimperliese". It only gives you "sissy" if you enter just this word in the browser. Thank goodness we have you. :)
All right, I'm not going to get caught up tonight but I'm gonna get somewhere!
The Prussian princesses were much more amiable to her than they were to their sister 10 years earlier. Envy and jealousy, which her malicious behavior had caused against Elisabeth, whom she viewed as a rival in the struggle for the favor of her father and brother, found no point of attack in the quiet, friendly Louise.
Heh. Also Louise wasn't going to be the Queen for a very long time (and perhaps they thought never, depending on whether they realized yet that Fritz wasn't going to have any kids). I'm sure that made a huge difference.
Between her and the over-nervous, ambitious and internally dissatisfied Amalie, a solid friendship developed over time.
OK, this is nice :)
Elisabeth painfully felt it was “God's destiny” that the joys of motherhood were denied her
Heh. ...I guess you can call it God's destiny that your husband is gay! Although that's not how I usually hear it referred to :P
Well, Fritz made AW Prince of Prussia (which implies he's not expecting to have a son) in 1744. By then, the first Silesian War was over, the next had begun, and anyone who thought that Fritz and EC not sharing palaces was just a temporary thing after the ascension to the throne and before he was off to Silesia had to see he had no intention of moving back with her. No shared rooms, no kids. Now, of course people could still have expected Fritz to get hold and hence Louise not being Queen for a very long time, but given we was busy with Silesian wars until the end of 1745, he lived dangerously.
(Mind you: AW did, too. As was pointed out in several biographies, at the first siege of Prague all three brothers - Fritz, AW and Heinrich - could have died on the same occasion, and Heinrich's page, standing behind him, did.)
Anyway, in principle I agree that Louise not about to become Queen played a role in her being treated less maliciously. That, and when EC married Fritz, he actually (faked?) affection enough for her to satisfy Dad. Fritz wasn't the only one considering the Rheinsberg years his happiest. EC wrote blissful letters home during that era. So I would not be surprised if both EC and the sisters weren't sure about how things stood between Fritz and EC until he became King, and how much influence she would have once in his reign.
SD: Mina, my favorite daughter! Amalie: Excuse me?! Wilhelmine: Tell me about it.
A+ parenting, SD.
That's all I got for today. I've only just gotten to the part where Ziebura is describing how Mina came from an artistic, Francophilic background, in contrast to the Brunswick sisters. Going to read more Sons tonight, and *not* feel like I'm behind on comments, yay.
That's why I hope Wilhelmine and Amalie had the chance during Wilhelmine's visits to Berlin to talk a deux, because Wilhelmine was really the only one in that family whom Amalie could have talked to about SD without having to fear being chided about not considering her mother the most wonderful.
Also, have you got to the part where Mina's uncle the Landgraf of Hesse-Kassel entrusts her with a secret mission to Fritz, specifically, that Fritz should keep his son (also called Friedrich, because hey, we don't have enough of those), the future Landgraf of Hesse, who had secretly become a Catholic at Potsdam to remove him from evil Catholic influence, and Fritz said, well, sure, if you send a few reliable people along to prevent newly Catholic Hesse Fritz from escaping, for: "Er wolle nicht die Verantwortung für einen Fluchtversuch des Prinzen übernehmen." I bet he didn't.
Read up through the first evacuation to Magdeburg, where EC is getting to visit Sanssouci.
selenak, you've now been to Sanssouci more times than EC. (I've been the same number of times, but am going to remedy that, I swear.)
OTOH, you've now been to Katte's grave more often than Fritz! (Also going to remedy that.)
As further German practice, I also did a couple pages of Wilhelmine's memoirs, but it's a little harder going than Sons was. Though I feel like it's still within my range, and I will try to keep at it.
Prince August Wilhelm was particularly fond of her and told his brother Ferdinand that anyone who stayed in her room would come out rejuvenated.
AW, I'm blaming you that I sniggered at this line. :P
With his wise choice Heinrich had achieved that he and his wife, flanked by their two charming ladies-in-waiting, only ever met in company, which was often joined by his sister Amalie and his brothers. In this way he was able to avoid any intimate togetherness, apparently quite casually.
Aw man, Heinrich, you put the "problematic" in "problematic fave."
she was far too clever to hide her insecure position at court
That makes a lot of sense!
Google translate translated "Gnadenbeweise" as "mercy-clones," lol. Maybe I should ask for a SF-inflected Frederician AU for Yuletide after all :P
Karoline had been married to the younger brother of Tsarina Catherine the Great, Prince Friedrich August von Anhalt-Zerbst, who was completely under the thumb of his mother, who treated her daughter-in-law very badly.
Wait... having read ahead to Caroline's death which was apparently of abuse... her mother-in-law was the instigator of the abuse that killed her?? Geesh.
I like how everyone uses Cothenius as this way of getting news to Fritz :P
I like that Mina had girlfriends! I hope some of them stuck by her later :( (I've read far enough to know that many don't.)
She was much more sensitive that her husband did not approve of her loving, tender way of bringing up children.
Louise: So I thought I'd, you know, love my kids -- AW: What kind of family do you think you married into, anyway? Love your kids? That makes no sense to me, unless by "love" you mean "abuse."
(I know, AW was the one who actually got affection! But even for him it was highly dysfunctional.)
Wait... having read ahead to Caroline's death which was apparently of abuse... her mother-in-law was the instigator of the abuse that killed her?? Geesh.
Well, said mother-in-law, according to Catherine, thought it was a great idea that her (i.e. Johanna von Zerbst-Anhalt's) brother "romanced" young Sophie in secret: "He got me to agree to marry him, if my parents did not object. I later came to the conclusion that my mother knew all about this. It was impossible for her not to notice the passes he made at me, and if she hadn't agreed with this, she would surely not have permitted the many visits he paid me. These conclusions, however, were drawn by me many years later; back then I did not suspect this. After my agreement, my uncle threw himself into the force of his passion, which was enormous; he was forever lurking and waiting for the moments to kiss me, he knew how to made them happen, though these, and a few tender embraces were all that happened, otherwise it was quite innocent.
Now keep in mind Sophie was 14 when she left Zerbst and Prussia, went to Russia and became Catherine, and for the last year, whwen the future Czar became an option, her mother did nix any other suitor. So, even keeping in mind that royal uncle/niece marriages were a thing, I had a pretty jaundiced opinion of Catherine's mother and Caroline's mother-in-law anyway. (She also was Ulrike's sister-in-law, since her brother was Ulrike's husband, the Swedish king.)
OK, I need to go to bed so this is my last comment for tonight, but:
When picking out a bride, Heinrich decides on the sister who can best deal with disappointments and humiliation?? Wow, this was not in the Heinrich bio that I recall.
I had the same reaction! Though I also didn't realize before reading this that he had any choice whatsoever -- I guess I assumed Fritz had made the whole choice. I could also imagine him picking the sister who was in fact the most charming, figuring he might as well get the one who was going to be the least obnoxious to be around.
Like I said, unless I've forgotten a direct quote, I took this as Ziebura's personal interpretation of the situation, especially given how life turned out for either sister, rather than a stated intention of Heinrich's.
Mina's sister: Caroline, married AnhaltSophie's younger brother Friedrich August, Prince of Anhalt-Zerbst a year after Mina had married Heinrich (i.e. they married in 1753). Was terrorized by her mother-in-law Johanna and ill treated by her husband. When the 7 Years War started, Anhalt-Zerbst declared neutrality. Fritz said "I don't think so". Johanna was currently hosting the Marquis de Freigne who was indeed supposed to find out via her (who, remember, was the mother of future Catherine the Great) whether Russia was on board with the anti Prussia coalition. This was Fritz' official reason to send Major von Kleist to occupy the country. Johanna fled to Paris, Friedrich August to a couple of exile locations, and poor Caroline died in misery and I think childbed in 1759. Lehndorff does mention the Anhalt-Zerbst situation a couple of times, including that "the young princess" i.e. Caroline, got constantly tyrannized by "the old princess" i.e. Johanna and abused by her husband. He might have heared about it from Mina, who visited her sister a couple of times, and got visited by her, and up to Caroline's death (i.e. 1759) certainly would have considered herself as the more fortunate.
Friedrich August didn't bother to come back after the 7 Years War but mostly lived in Basel, Switzerland. He ruled his country via ministers who thoroughly exploited it, and to get some additional cash sold his regiments to the Brits in the American War of Independence. (Which several German princes did, including Carl Eugen, remember, I told you when we had one of our earliest Schiller conversations.) He also married again. Worthy of note: he wasn't welcome in Russia. From what I recall from my hasty browsing through the memoirs, Catherine's feelings for her brother were less than warm.
I read about Caroline's death today! I was all "wait, are you seriously telling me that her husband LITERALLY ABUSED HER TO DEATH??" GAH. Can you imagine these sisterly conversations.
Mina: My life sucks. My husband is gay and sees me as a symbol of his humiliation. Caroline: My husband beats me up and I fear for my life. Mina: ...Your life sucks worse. Caroline: I mean, it's not like yours is a bed of roses either. But yeah.
Worthy of note: he wasn't welcome in Russia. From what I recall from my hasty browsing through the memoirs, Catherine's feelings for her brother were less than warm.
I can seriously see how that would be. Also: Catherine is also my problematic fave!
It's easy to miss! In the Heinrich bio, Ziebura points out that when Heinrich went on that trip to make his choice from among the three sisters, he wrote about the art and architecture and gardens and the troops, and basically everything *except* his prospective brides. To the point where, when he made his choice, Fritz was confused about which one he *had* chosen.
I also worked Heinrich having a (limited) choice into "Lovers lying two and two":
"And Heinrich," Friedrich continued, still acrimonious, "he should be grateful he's getting to choose his wife. I have it on good authority all three sisters are intelligent, lively, and talented, compared to that pious bore who was foisted on me, and he'll get to meet them and take his pick before he finds himself in front of an altar."
Okay, I'm not crazy! Wives has the same thing I remember reading in AW: immediately after he dies, Ziebura reports that Louise and EC are delighted because they get a visit from their mother, and that EC gets to see Sanssouci as a result. Only, in Wives, Ziebura goes on to say: "This time, EC had a better opportunity to see the palace and gardens up close than on her trip to Magdeburg."
Wives:
Amalie, die ihren Kampf verloren und das schreckliche Sterben ihres lieben Bruders, ohne von seinem Lager zu weichen, miterlebt hatte, schrieb an den König: Ich habe einen Bruder sterben sehen, an des sen Stelle ich lieber selbst gestorben wäre. Sie war nun am Ende ihrer Kräfte und fuhr, noch vor der Beisetzung des Prinzen von Preußen im Berliner Dom, zu ihrer Schwester Sophie nach Schwedt.
Die Königin bereitete dagegen voller Freude mit ihren beiden Schwestern Christine und Therese alles für den Empfang ihrer Mutter, der verwitweten Herzogin von Braunschweig -Wolfenbüttel, in Schönhausen vor. Lehndorff bewunderte, wie sie es schaffte, in dem kleinen Schloss die ganze Familie mit Luise Amalie unterzubringen Luise hatte ihre Mutter seit ihrer Hochzeit nicht mehr gesehen. Für sie wie für Elisabeth Christine war es trotz allem Kummer eine große Freude, mit ihr und den jüngeren Schwestern in Schönhausen ein paar Wochen verleben zu können. Auf dem Rückweg fuhr die Königin mit ihnen nach Potsdam. Diesmal hatte Elisabeth Christine bessere Gelegenheit, sich Schloss und Garten von Sanssouci näher anzusehen, als auf ihrer Reise nach Magdeburg.
If this is correct, then the 1757 trip to Magdeburg was her first but not her only visit to Sanssouci.
AW:
Oh, this is interesting, in the AW volume, Ziebura does say it was EC's first visit:
Auf Bitten der Königin erlaubte er es der Herzogin-Witwe von Braunschweig, nach Berlin zu kommen, um ihrer schwangeren Tochter beizustehen. Louise Amalie hatte ebenso wie ihre Schwester seit ihrer Heirat im Jahr 1742 ihre Mutter nicht mehr gesehen. Die Freude über ihren Besuch, sowie die schönen Wochen, die die braunschweigischen Schwestern zusammen mit ihr in Schönhausen verleben konnten, linderten die Trauer über den Verlust ihres Gatten. Auf der Rückreise nach Braunschweig be gleitete die Königin ihre Mutter zusammen mit ihrem Kammerherrn Lehndorff bis Potsdam. Dabei hatte Elisabeth Christine zum ersten Mal Gelegenheit, das Schloss ihres Gatten zu sehen.
That's why I initially thought it was a different palace in Potsdam, because I knew she'd first seen Sanssouci thanks to the Queen of Hungary. But Ziebura must have realized that after writing the AW book. I'm not crazy, woohoo! (Though I did misremember the date. So many evacuations!)
This is as far as I've gotten. Plus what I read in Wilhelmine's memoirs, that's about 20 pages of German practice.
Wilhelmine digression: women are sleeping with influential men to get state secrets out of them so the women can pass the secrets onto French Count Rottembourg! That's so cool that I know who that is and what he's up to (and that Fritz was doing the same thing using Peter Keith's future father-in-law as a go-between). So many names that didn't mean anything to me the first time through her memoirs. And now I write fic about these people. :D (Still haven't given up hope on fix-it fic. Learning German is just fic research!)
* And now Manteuffel is scheming! I knew I wanted to reread these memoirs.
Next year's Yuletide: 18th century European envoys. :D
Seckendorff, Suhm, Manteuffel, Andrew Mitchell, Dickens, Hotham, Lovenorn and/or Johnn, George Keith, Algarotti, Charles Williams, Poniatowski, French Rottembourg, Prussian Rothenburg, Valori, Lynar, Hoym, Podewils...you could make a whole fandom out of these people!
Peter Keith's son...
* Fritz is burning documents pertaining to the plot against his life as soon as he becomes king. Every time I find Catt echoing Wilhelmine on something, I start to think that *maybe* he got that from Fritz. Of course, maybe Fritz mentioned destroying some unspecified documents after he became king, and Catt decided it was the famous 1730 episode, and not this obscure thing that only Wilhelmine's heard of.
* Huh. Wilhelmine says Fritz "adhered to good principles as long as Duhan was with him and had any influence over him." I feel like Duhan stopped being the official tutor when Keyserlingk and Rochow got appointed his governors, which I think was around the age of 16. I.e. around the time he starts taking an inappropriate interest in his father's pages and up-to-no-good lieutenants, in Wilhelmine's view. Considering that she isn't a fan of Keyserlingk, as I recall, and she blames Keith and Katte as bad influences on Fritz instead of the other way around, I wonder if she's trying to explain Fritz's sudden interest in people who were not her young men with reference to Duhan's good influence being removed.
* It is most definitely the case that Wilhelmine is harder than Ziebura for me because I already know the content in Ziebura, so once I recognize the vocab, I know who did what to whom. Whereas with Wilhelmine, I have to stop and figure that out. I feel like vocab and syntax are reasonably similar, but I struggle more with Wilhelmine. But I'm getting there!
you could make a whole fandom out of these people!
You could indeed, though if we do it, then the British envoy to Naples must be included. (Aka Sir William Hamilton.)
I wonder if she's trying to explain Fritz's sudden interest in people who were not her young men with reference to Duhan's good influence being removed.
Probably, both to herself and to others. I mean, for all that she never finished the memoirs but just stopped writing them mid visit with the odious Stuttgart in laws, she didn't destroy them, either. At some level, she must have wanted them read, whether by future family members or by a wider readership. In either case, it's easier to write "Duhan's good influence was gone" then "and then he started to fancy guys instead of me".
Struggling more Wilhelmine is normal: it's first person narration in a somewhat more old fashioned style, for all that it's a translation.
Today's update: I've read as far as Ferdinand spreading rumors about Mina and the prince of Nassau.
Behind on comments, but I just want to say: go Amalie of the medical interests ruining everyone's appetites at dinner! I've been guilty of that myself. :D
No comments tonight, but I've read as far as Fritz having women FedExed to him overnight for the ball, then forgetting to feed them, then not telling EC until the last minute that she's invited.
Fritz, I'm on board, up to a point, with you not wanting to spend time with EC, but you have to be competent. You're supposed to be detail oriented! Tsk.
ETA: Oh, and it's time for a new post already! Reading groups are good for inflating comment counts.
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timeasmymeasure
No Pity for the Wives readthrough - Intro
Date: 2020-09-10 01:11 am (UTC)* When picking out a bride, Heinrich decides on the sister who can best deal with disappointments and humiliation?? Wow, this was not in the Heinrich bio that I recall. It must have been one of those things she turned up after she discovered her fave was a little more problematic than she'd originally realized. I wish I had a citation for that--do you know,
* She thinks Heinrich may have tried and failed to sleep with Mina on their wedding night, and that contributed to his embarrassment around her afterward.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough - Intro
Date: 2020-09-10 02:10 pm (UTC)She thinks Heinrich may have tried and failed to sleep with Mina on their wedding night, and that contributed to his embarrassment around her afterward.
This, otoh, I recall from both books, because she already hinted at it in the Heinrich bio as well, just more indirectly "The hour of truth had at last come" (once all the wedding festivities were done with) etc. Who knows, it's entirely possible. If I ever were to write a story in which Heinrich actually does have a one night stand with the Countess Bentinck, I'd certainly explain it by using this idea - i.e. he couldn't consumate the marriage, he wanted to find out whether this was Mina-specific or whether he could have sex with a woman at all, and he liked La Bentinck at least enough to hang out with her repeatedly, plus she was essentially the female version of his type. Also, he might have attempted to consumate the marriage because Fritz could have made it a condition for getting the freedom and the money (though I hope your story is right and he didn't demand that part as well).
Conversely, I think it's just as possible he didn't even try, and Mina didn't say anything to anyone because in ye early years, it wasn't a bad deal - she got fussed about by everyone at court, she had AW and Ferdinand for the harmless romance, and Heinrich was at this stage still polite and bothered with the occasional nice present. By the time Heinrich started with the bad behavior (i.e. after AW's death), it was too late to go for an annulment on the grounds of non consumation, if she wanted to endure the scandal, or to try and appeal to Fritz or anything like that.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough - Intro
Date: 2020-09-10 02:24 pm (UTC)Ah, okay. Well, we'll find out.
This, otoh, I recall from both books, because she already hinted at it in the Heinrich bio as well, just more indirectly "The hour of truth had at last come"
Well, that was way too indirect for me. I took that to mean the hour in which Mina found out her new husband was exclusively gay and she wouldn't be getting any. ;) But I guess she found that out either way.
i.e. he couldn't consumate the marriage, he wanted to find out whether this was Mina-specific or whether he could have sex with a woman at all, and he liked La Bentinck at least enough to hang out with her repeatedly
Ooh, that would be interesting. Though a disappointment for the poor Countess.
plus she was essentially the female version of his type
Down to wearing men's clothes to try to seduce him. ;)
Also, he might have attempted to consumate the marriage because Fritz could have made it a condition for getting the freedom and the money (though I hope your story is right and he didn't demand that part as well).
Ugh I HOPE SO.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough - Intro
Date: 2020-09-13 09:06 pm (UTC)HAHAHAHA that's exactly what I thought! But I could see it the other way too.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough - Louise
Date: 2020-09-11 12:11 am (UTC)* Ziebura presents EC's "he's so cruel!" letter to Ferdinand as in response to the no-good condolence letter on her brother, but if Preuss's dates can be trusted, that was in response to *silence*. God knows what she said about the actual letter when he finally got around to (AW pressured him into?) sending it!
* Zimperliese: apparently a translation of bégueule, which means a prudish, prim/affected/simpering, and ridiculous person who gets piqued over little things. Ziebura: "Well, she was certainly extremely sensitive to every slight from Fritz."
* I had forgotten or not realized that Louise had to stay with Sophie von Voss when the court relocated to Magdeburg. So they never talked about AW ever (can see that), and their kids played together and had no idea about AW/Sophie. Huh!
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough - Louise
Date: 2020-09-11 06:57 am (UTC)ETA: Zimperliese: I'm curious - does google translate this as "carpentry guy" again?
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough - Louise
Date: 2020-09-12 03:58 pm (UTC)Google just apparently has no clue about "zimperliese". It only gives you "sissy" if you enter just this word in the browser. Thank goodness we have you. :)
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough - Louise
From:Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough - Louise
From:Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough - Louise
Date: 2020-09-14 05:13 am (UTC)The Prussian princesses were much more amiable to her than they were to their sister 10 years earlier. Envy and jealousy, which her malicious behavior had caused against Elisabeth, whom she viewed as a rival in the struggle for the favor of her father and brother, found no point of attack in the quiet, friendly Louise.
Heh. Also Louise wasn't going to be the Queen for a very long time (and perhaps they thought never, depending on whether they realized yet that Fritz wasn't going to have any kids). I'm sure that made a huge difference.
Between her and the over-nervous, ambitious and internally dissatisfied Amalie, a solid friendship developed over time.
OK, this is nice :)
Elisabeth painfully felt it was “God's destiny” that the joys of motherhood were denied her
Heh. ...I guess you can call it God's destiny that your husband is gay! Although that's not how I usually hear it referred to :P
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough - Louise
Date: 2020-09-14 08:24 am (UTC)(Mind you: AW did, too. As was pointed out in several biographies, at the first siege of Prague all three brothers - Fritz, AW and Heinrich - could have died on the same occasion, and Heinrich's page, standing behind him, did.)
Anyway, in principle I agree that Louise not about to become Queen played a role in her being treated less maliciously. That, and when EC married Fritz, he actually (faked?) affection enough for her to satisfy Dad. Fritz wasn't the only one considering the Rheinsberg years his happiest. EC wrote blissful letters home during that era. So I would not be surprised if both EC and the sisters weren't sure about how things stood between Fritz and EC until he became King, and how much influence she would have once in his reign.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough - Louise
From:Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough - Mina
Date: 2020-09-11 12:14 am (UTC)Amalie: Excuse me?!
Wilhelmine: Tell me about it.
A+ parenting, SD.
That's all I got for today. I've only just gotten to the part where Ziebura is describing how Mina came from an artistic, Francophilic background, in contrast to the Brunswick sisters. Going to read more Sons tonight, and *not* feel like I'm behind on comments, yay.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough - Mina
Date: 2020-09-11 06:48 am (UTC)Also, have you got to the part where Mina's uncle the Landgraf of Hesse-Kassel entrusts her with a secret mission to Fritz, specifically, that Fritz should keep his son (also called Friedrich, because hey, we don't have enough of those), the future Landgraf of Hesse, who had secretly become a Catholic at Potsdam to remove him from evil Catholic influence, and Fritz said, well, sure, if you send a few reliable people along to prevent newly Catholic Hesse Fritz from escaping, for: "Er wolle nicht die Verantwortung für einen Fluchtversuch des Prinzen übernehmen." I bet he didn't.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough - Mina
Date: 2020-09-12 04:38 pm (UTC)Yes, Fritz, we know. If you can't escape, no one gets to escape.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough - Mina
Date: 2020-09-12 03:38 am (UTC)OTOH, you've now been to Katte's grave more often than Fritz! (Also going to remedy that.)
As further German practice, I also did a couple pages of Wilhelmine's memoirs, but it's a little harder going than Sons was. Though I feel like it's still within my range, and I will try to keep at it.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough - Mina
Date: 2020-09-14 05:29 am (UTC)Mm. Gonna guess you regretted that one, Heinrich.
Prince August Wilhelm was particularly fond of her and told his brother Ferdinand that anyone who stayed in her room would come out rejuvenated.
AW, I'm blaming you that I sniggered at this line. :P
With his wise choice Heinrich had achieved that he and his wife, flanked by their two charming ladies-in-waiting, only ever met in company, which was often joined by his sister Amalie and his brothers. In this way he was able to avoid any intimate togetherness, apparently quite casually.
Aw man, Heinrich, you put the "problematic" in "problematic fave."
she was far too clever to hide her insecure position at court
That makes a lot of sense!
Google translate translated "Gnadenbeweise" as "mercy-clones," lol. Maybe I should ask for a SF-inflected Frederician AU for Yuletide after all :P
Karoline had been married to the younger brother of Tsarina Catherine the Great, Prince Friedrich August von Anhalt-Zerbst, who was completely under the thumb of his mother, who treated her daughter-in-law very badly.
Wait... having read ahead to Caroline's death which was apparently of abuse... her mother-in-law was the instigator of the abuse that killed her?? Geesh.
I like how everyone uses Cothenius as this way of getting news to Fritz :P
I like that Mina had girlfriends! I hope some of them stuck by her later :( (I've read far enough to know that many don't.)
She was much more sensitive that her husband did not approve of her loving, tender way of bringing up children.
Louise: So I thought I'd, you know, love my kids --
AW: What kind of family do you think you married into, anyway? Love your kids? That makes no sense to me, unless by "love" you mean "abuse."
(I know, AW was the one who actually got affection! But even for him it was highly dysfunctional.)
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough - Mina
Date: 2020-09-14 08:05 am (UTC)Well, said mother-in-law, according to Catherine, thought it was a great idea that her (i.e. Johanna von Zerbst-Anhalt's) brother "romanced" young Sophie in secret: "He got me to agree to marry him, if my parents did not object. I later came to the conclusion that my mother knew all about this. It was impossible for her not to notice the passes he made at me, and if she hadn't agreed with this, she would surely not have permitted the many visits he paid me. These conclusions, however, were drawn by me many years later; back then I did not suspect this. After my agreement, my uncle threw himself into the force of his passion, which was enormous; he was forever lurking and waiting for the moments to kiss me, he knew how to made them happen, though these, and a few tender embraces were all that happened, otherwise it was quite innocent.
Now keep in mind Sophie was 14 when she left Zerbst and Prussia, went to Russia and became Catherine, and for the last year, whwen the future Czar became an option, her mother did nix any other suitor. So, even keeping in mind that royal uncle/niece marriages were a thing, I had a pretty jaundiced opinion of Catherine's mother and Caroline's mother-in-law anyway. (She also was Ulrike's sister-in-law, since her brother was Ulrike's husband, the Swedish king.)
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough - Mina
From:Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough - Mina
From:Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough - Intro
Date: 2020-09-12 05:47 am (UTC)When picking out a bride, Heinrich decides on the sister who can best deal with disappointments and humiliation?? Wow, this was not in the Heinrich bio that I recall.
I had the same reaction! Though I also didn't realize before reading this that he had any choice whatsoever -- I guess I assumed Fritz had made the whole choice. I could also imagine him picking the sister who was in fact the most charming, figuring he might as well get the one who was going to be the least obnoxious to be around.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough - Intro
Date: 2020-09-12 08:01 am (UTC)Mina's sister: Caroline, married AnhaltSophie's younger brother Friedrich August, Prince of Anhalt-Zerbst a year after Mina had married Heinrich (i.e. they married in 1753). Was terrorized by her mother-in-law Johanna and ill treated by her husband. When the 7 Years War started, Anhalt-Zerbst declared neutrality. Fritz said "I don't think so". Johanna was currently hosting the Marquis de Freigne who was indeed supposed to find out via her (who, remember, was the mother of future Catherine the Great) whether Russia was on board with the anti Prussia coalition. This was Fritz' official reason to send Major von Kleist to occupy the country. Johanna fled to Paris, Friedrich August to a couple of exile locations, and poor Caroline died in misery and I think childbed in 1759. Lehndorff does mention the Anhalt-Zerbst situation a couple of times, including that "the young princess" i.e. Caroline, got constantly tyrannized by "the old princess" i.e. Johanna and abused by her husband. He might have heared about it from Mina, who visited her sister a couple of times, and got visited by her, and up to Caroline's death (i.e. 1759) certainly would have considered herself as the more fortunate.
Friedrich August didn't bother to come back after the 7 Years War but mostly lived in Basel, Switzerland. He ruled his country via ministers who thoroughly exploited it, and to get some additional cash sold his regiments to the Brits in the American War of Independence. (Which several German princes did, including Carl Eugen, remember, I told you when we had one of our earliest Schiller conversations.) He also married again. Worthy of note: he wasn't welcome in Russia. From what I recall from my hasty browsing through the memoirs, Catherine's feelings for her brother were less than warm.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough - Intro
Date: 2020-09-13 04:54 am (UTC)Mina: My life sucks. My husband is gay and sees me as a symbol of his humiliation.
Caroline: My husband beats me up and I fear for my life.
Mina: ...Your life sucks worse.
Caroline: I mean, it's not like yours is a bed of roses either. But yeah.
Worthy of note: he wasn't welcome in Russia. From what I recall from my hasty browsing through the memoirs, Catherine's feelings for her brother were less than warm.
I can seriously see how that would be. Also: Catherine is also my problematic fave!
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough - Intro
Date: 2020-09-12 04:31 pm (UTC)I also worked Heinrich having a (limited) choice into "Lovers lying two and two":
"And Heinrich," Friedrich continued, still acrimonious, "he should be grateful he's getting to choose his wife. I have it on good authority all three sisters are intelligent, lively, and talented, compared to that pious bore who was foisted on me, and he'll get to meet them and take his pick before he finds himself in front of an altar."
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough - AW dies
Date: 2020-09-13 03:06 am (UTC)Wives:
Amalie, die ihren Kampf verloren und das schreckliche Sterben ihres lieben Bruders, ohne von seinem Lager zu weichen, miterlebt hatte, schrieb an den König: Ich habe einen Bruder sterben sehen, an des sen Stelle ich lieber selbst gestorben wäre. Sie war nun am Ende ihrer Kräfte und fuhr, noch vor der Beisetzung des Prinzen von Preußen im Berliner Dom, zu ihrer Schwester Sophie nach Schwedt.
Die Königin bereitete dagegen voller Freude mit ihren beiden Schwestern Christine und Therese alles für den Empfang ihrer Mutter, der verwitweten Herzogin von Braunschweig -Wolfenbüttel, in Schönhausen vor. Lehndorff bewunderte, wie sie es schaffte, in dem kleinen Schloss die ganze Familie mit Luise Amalie unterzubringen Luise hatte ihre Mutter seit ihrer Hochzeit nicht mehr gesehen. Für sie wie für Elisabeth Christine war es trotz allem Kummer eine große Freude, mit ihr und den jüngeren Schwestern in Schönhausen ein paar Wochen verleben zu können. Auf dem Rückweg fuhr die Königin mit ihnen nach Potsdam. Diesmal hatte Elisabeth Christine bessere Gelegenheit, sich Schloss und Garten von Sanssouci näher anzusehen, als auf ihrer Reise nach Magdeburg.
If this is correct, then the 1757 trip to Magdeburg was her first but not her only visit to Sanssouci.
AW:
Oh, this is interesting, in the AW volume, Ziebura does say it was EC's first visit:
Auf Bitten der Königin erlaubte er es der Herzogin-Witwe von Braunschweig, nach Berlin zu kommen, um ihrer schwangeren Tochter beizustehen. Louise Amalie hatte ebenso wie ihre Schwester seit ihrer Heirat im Jahr 1742 ihre Mutter nicht mehr gesehen. Die Freude über ihren Besuch, sowie die schönen Wochen, die die braunschweigischen Schwestern zusammen mit ihr in Schönhausen verleben konnten, linderten die Trauer über den Verlust ihres Gatten. Auf der Rückreise nach Braunschweig be gleitete die Königin ihre Mutter zusammen mit ihrem Kammerherrn Lehndorff bis Potsdam. Dabei hatte Elisabeth Christine zum ersten Mal Gelegenheit, das Schloss ihres Gatten zu sehen.
That's why I initially thought it was a different palace in Potsdam, because I knew she'd first seen Sanssouci thanks to the Queen of Hungary. But Ziebura must have realized that after writing the AW book. I'm not crazy, woohoo! (Though I did misremember the date. So many evacuations!)
This is as far as I've gotten. Plus what I read in Wilhelmine's memoirs, that's about 20 pages of German practice.
Wilhelmine digression: women are sleeping with influential men to get state secrets out of them so the women can pass the secrets onto French Count Rottembourg! That's so cool that I know who that is and what he's up to (and that Fritz was doing the same thing using Peter Keith's future father-in-law as a go-between). So many names that didn't mean anything to me the first time through her memoirs. And now I write fic about these people. :D (Still haven't given up hope on fix-it fic. Learning German is just fic research!)
Wilhelmine
Date: 2020-09-14 01:12 am (UTC)Next year's Yuletide: 18th century European envoys. :D
Seckendorff, Suhm, Manteuffel, Andrew Mitchell, Dickens, Hotham, Lovenorn and/or Johnn, George Keith, Algarotti, Charles Williams, Poniatowski, French Rottembourg, Prussian Rothenburg, Valori, Lynar, Hoym, Podewils...you could make a whole fandom out of these people!
Peter Keith's son...
* Fritz is burning documents pertaining to the plot against his life as soon as he becomes king. Every time I find Catt echoing Wilhelmine on something, I start to think that *maybe* he got that from Fritz. Of course, maybe Fritz mentioned destroying some unspecified documents after he became king, and Catt decided it was the famous 1730 episode, and not this obscure thing that only Wilhelmine's heard of.
* Huh. Wilhelmine says Fritz "adhered to good principles as long as Duhan was with him and had any influence over him." I feel like Duhan stopped being the official tutor when Keyserlingk and Rochow got appointed his governors, which I think was around the age of 16. I.e. around the time he starts taking an inappropriate interest in his father's pages and up-to-no-good lieutenants, in Wilhelmine's view. Considering that she isn't a fan of Keyserlingk, as I recall, and she blames Keith and Katte as bad influences on Fritz instead of the other way around, I wonder if she's trying to explain Fritz's sudden interest in
people who were not heryoung men with reference to Duhan's good influence being removed.* It is most definitely the case that Wilhelmine is harder than Ziebura for me because I already know the content in Ziebura, so once I recognize the vocab, I know who did what to whom. Whereas with Wilhelmine, I have to stop and figure that out. I feel like vocab and syntax are reasonably similar, but I struggle more with Wilhelmine. But I'm getting there!
Re: Wilhelmine
Date: 2020-09-14 01:34 pm (UTC)You could indeed, though if we do it, then the British envoy to Naples must be included. (Aka Sir William Hamilton.)
I wonder if she's trying to explain Fritz's sudden interest in
people who were not heryoung men with reference to Duhan's good influence being removed.Probably, both to herself and to others. I mean, for all that she never finished the memoirs but just stopped writing them mid visit with the odious Stuttgart in laws, she didn't destroy them, either. At some level, she must have wanted them read, whether by future family members or by a wider readership. In either case, it's easier to write "Duhan's good influence was gone" then "and then he started to fancy guys
instead of me".Struggling more Wilhelmine is normal: it's first person narration in a somewhat more old fashioned style, for all that it's a translation.
Re: Wilhelmine
From:Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough - AW dies
Date: 2020-09-14 01:16 am (UTC)Behind on comments, but I just want to say: go Amalie of the medical interests ruining everyone's appetites at dinner! I've been guilty of that myself. :D
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough - AW dies
From:Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough - Intro
Date: 2020-09-14 04:59 am (UTC)Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough - Intro
Date: 2020-09-15 03:37 am (UTC)Fritz, I'm on board, up to a point, with you not wanting to spend time with EC, but you have to be competent. You're supposed to be detail oriented! Tsk.
ETA: Oh, and it's time for a new post already! Reading groups are good for inflating comment counts.