I see we all favour the "Fredersdorf could have found out dirt and used it" theory. I can see another reason why it's unlikely Fredersdorf could have actually, physically, have Georgii killed: the Hannover envoy seems sure Georgii did commit suicide, he's just unsure re: the reasons. So I'm assuming the suicide might have been observed by others. All the more likely if this happened while the Silesian war was still going on. There's little privacy in the army if you're not the King or a high ranking general and in possession of a tent of your own, and evne then there'd be servants.
Besides, if it had been murder staged as suicide, Fredersdorf would have either had to rely on a third party (v. risky, opens him to blackmail) for doing the deed, or do it himself (also very risky, since no matter in which shape he himself was in in 1741, Georgii would have been younger and an active soldier trained to kill in defense of his own life). And if he was afraid of losing Fritz' favour before, which is the entire supposed motive for such a deed, he'd be 100% certain to lose it if Fritz as much as suspected such a thing. No one ever described Fredersdorf as foolish. Whereas if he finds dirt on Georgii and lets things play out, he's in the clear, and Georgi disqualifies himself.
Your arguments about the difficulty of Fredersdorf committing murder or murder-for-hire are very persuasive.
And if he was afraid of losing Fritz' favour before, which is the entire supposed motive for such a deed, he'd be 100% certain to lose it if Fritz as much as suspected such a thing. No one ever described Fredersdorf as foolish.
I could not agree with this more. Whatever happened to Georgii, Fritz did not suspect Fredersdorf of wrongdoing. And it's doubtful to me that Fredersdorf, wherever he might fall on the continuum from nice to ruthless, would have taken that risk with a touchy king in 1741.
Unexpectedly, Mr. Büsching has delivered a suicidal hussar... from 1775. When Fredersdorf was long dead. Büsching writes thusly:
He had intentionally ignorant people who couldn't read or write as his servants, and not for the usual use, believing that nothing disadvantagegous or dangerous was to fear from them; he was however wrong about this. A case in point was the Chamber Hussar Deesen, for whom he had much favour and grace, but whom he, I don't know why, eventually put in such a great disgrace that the man grew desperate over it. If I'm not mistaken, both (disgrace and desperation) reached their peak in the July of 1775. The King was back then visited by family members, and during this visit he'd ordered that the man shouldn't appear in front of him. When the visited had ended, and the King was back at Sanssouci, he'd ordered the man to him one morning and gave him to the aide who'd read the rapport with the command that he'd be used as a drummer at the corps. The man fell to his feet, but he kicked him away, and when the man clung to his knees again, (the King) had him pulled away by force. Deesen asked the aide who went with him whether he was allowed to pick up his hat; and when he'd gone to his room, he shot himself with a prepared and loaded pistol he'd kept for such a case. When this was reported to the King, he first said "but where did he get the loaded gun from?" and then "I wouldn't have expected such courage from him". But one noticed much disturbance of the temper from the King about this event, and from the questions he put to his people afterwards, one could see this event had been very disagreeable to him. This man had not known how to read or write, but he had someone else read to him something which had been lying on the King's table.
1.) One suicidal hussar might be regarded as a misfortune. Two looks like carelessness, misquote Oscar Wilde.
2.) Yep, that's FW's son, alright.
3.) So clearly this had nothing to do with Fredersdorf, what with him being dead, and Old Fritz in 1775 isn't necessarily like young Fritz in 1741, but presumably this is the kind of thing Georgii might have been afraid would happen, quite independent from what Frederdorf did or did not do?
(Poking my head in for a little but leaving the computer again soon. :( )
Not unexpected to me; I had reported this before, and wasn't sure if it was the Burgdorf's Gregorii under a different name.
Looking back, I didn't recount the full anecdote, but I definitely remember all the details mentioned there, especially "When this was reported to the King, he first said 'but where did he get the loaded gun from?' and then 'I wouldn't have expected such courage from him'."
This is what I did report:
Preuss enumerates the valets/batmen/lackeys that got dismissed for stealing from Fritz. Glasow is mentioned, of course (in a "more on him later" kind of way), and so are a couple others. Including a Deesen, who was accused of stealing from Fritz, and ordered to become a drum-beater in the army as part of his punishment. Well, evidently he couldn't take the humiliation, and on July 23, 1775, shot himself at Sanssouci.
...I can't find any more on this guy, but I was reminded of something you found in Burgdorf: "'The King's love could be deadly. Katte wasn't the only one who lost his life. A young officer, Gregorii, shot himself when Friedrich turned towards a new favourite.'...I wonder if Deesen's first name might be Gregorii, or if Burgdorf might otherwise be reporting the same story under a different name.
Thank you for picking up my past self's slack and translating the full anecdote!
One suicidal hussar might be regarded as a misfortune. Two looks like carelessness, misquote Oscar Wilde.
Haha.
So clearly this had nothing to do with Fredersdorf, what with him being dead, and Old Fritz in 1775 isn't necessarily like young Fritz in 1741, but presumably this is the kind of thing Georgii might have been afraid would happen, quite independent from what Frederdorf did or did not do?
Sounds about right. Theirs was also a much more "death before dishonor" culture than ours, so suicide, while not by any means less tragic, was more likely to present itself as an alternative to disgrace. Which is not to say that everyone chose death, but there was a stronger emphasis on lost honor as the ultimate worst. Witness AW refusing medical treatment.
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Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
Date: 2020-03-23 07:52 am (UTC)Besides, if it had been murder staged as suicide, Fredersdorf would have either had to rely on a third party (v. risky, opens him to blackmail) for doing the deed, or do it himself (also very risky, since no matter in which shape he himself was in in 1741, Georgii would have been younger and an active soldier trained to kill in defense of his own life). And if he was afraid of losing Fritz' favour before, which is the entire supposed motive for such a deed, he'd be 100% certain to lose it if Fritz as much as suspected such a thing. No one ever described Fredersdorf as foolish. Whereas if he finds dirt on Georgii and lets things play out, he's in the clear, and Georgi disqualifies himself.
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
Date: 2020-03-25 12:47 am (UTC)And if he was afraid of losing Fritz' favour before, which is the entire supposed motive for such a deed, he'd be 100% certain to lose it if Fritz as much as suspected such a thing. No one ever described Fredersdorf as foolish.
I could not agree with this more. Whatever happened to Georgii, Fritz did not suspect Fredersdorf of wrongdoing. And it's doubtful to me that Fredersdorf, wherever he might fall on the continuum from nice to ruthless, would have taken that risk with a touchy king in 1741.
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
Date: 2020-03-25 12:51 pm (UTC)He had intentionally ignorant people who couldn't read or write as his servants, and not for the usual use, believing that nothing disadvantagegous or dangerous was to fear from them; he was however wrong about this. A case in point was the Chamber Hussar Deesen, for whom he had much favour and grace, but whom he, I don't know why, eventually put in such a great disgrace that the man grew desperate over it. If I'm not mistaken, both (disgrace and desperation) reached their peak in the July of 1775. The King was back then visited by family members, and during this visit he'd ordered that the man shouldn't appear in front of him. When the visited had ended, and the King was back at Sanssouci, he'd ordered the man to him one morning and gave him to the aide who'd read the rapport with the command that he'd be used as a drummer at the corps. The man fell to his feet, but he kicked him away, and when the man clung to his knees again, (the King) had him pulled away by force. Deesen asked the aide who went with him whether he was allowed to pick up his hat; and when he'd gone to his room, he shot himself with a prepared and loaded pistol he'd kept for such a case. When this was reported to the King, he first said "but where did he get the loaded gun from?" and then "I wouldn't have expected such courage from him". But one noticed much disturbance of the temper from the King about this event, and from the questions he put to his people afterwards, one could see this event had been very disagreeable to him. This man had not known how to read or write, but he had someone else read to him something which had been lying on the King's table.
1.) One suicidal hussar might be regarded as a misfortune. Two looks like carelessness, misquote Oscar Wilde.
2.) Yep, that's FW's son, alright.
3.) So clearly this had nothing to do with Fredersdorf, what with him being dead, and Old Fritz in 1775 isn't necessarily like young Fritz in 1741, but presumably this is the kind of thing Georgii might have been afraid would happen, quite independent from what Frederdorf did or did not do?
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
Date: 2020-03-27 02:57 am (UTC)Not unexpected to me; I had reported this before, and wasn't sure if it was the Burgdorf's Gregorii under a different name.
Looking back, I didn't recount the full anecdote, but I definitely remember all the details mentioned there, especially "When this was reported to the King, he first said 'but where did he get the loaded gun from?' and then 'I wouldn't have expected such courage from him'."
This is what I did report:
Preuss enumerates the valets/batmen/lackeys that got dismissed for stealing from Fritz. Glasow is mentioned, of course (in a "more on him later" kind of way), and so are a couple others. Including a Deesen, who was accused of stealing from Fritz, and ordered to become a drum-beater in the army as part of his punishment. Well, evidently he couldn't take the humiliation, and on July 23, 1775, shot himself at Sanssouci.
...I can't find any more on this guy, but I was reminded of something you found in Burgdorf: "'The King's love could be deadly. Katte wasn't the only one who lost his life. A young officer, Gregorii, shot himself when Friedrich turned towards a new favourite.'...I wonder if Deesen's first name might be Gregorii, or if Burgdorf might otherwise be reporting the same story under a different name.
Thank you for picking up my past self's slack and translating the full anecdote!
One suicidal hussar might be regarded as a misfortune. Two looks like carelessness, misquote Oscar Wilde.
Haha.
So clearly this had nothing to do with Fredersdorf, what with him being dead, and Old Fritz in 1775 isn't necessarily like young Fritz in 1741, but presumably this is the kind of thing Georgii might have been afraid would happen, quite independent from what Frederdorf did or did not do?
Sounds about right. Theirs was also a much more "death before dishonor" culture than ours, so suicide, while not by any means less tragic, was more likely to present itself as an alternative to disgrace. Which is not to say that everyone chose death, but there was a stronger emphasis on lost honor as the ultimate worst. Witness AW refusing medical treatment.
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
Date: 2020-03-25 05:01 am (UTC)Yeah!! That's right, he couldn't possibly have done the murder himself :P