Now the Catherine memoirs are there. Upon taking a first look, I see that the Gutenberg version, which starts with her arrival in Russia, has indeed been very shortened, for lo, we get little Sophie the Prussian princess in the version you've uploaded, and what is on page 39:
On the way from Stettin to Braunschweig or on the way back my mother usually made a stop at Berlin or Zerbst, depending on where my father was at the time. I remember how I was presented at age 8 for the first time to the late Queen Sophia Dorothea, the mother of King Frederick the Great; the King her husband was still alive then. Her four children, eleven years old Prince Heinrich, seven years old Prince Ferdinand, Princess Ulrike, the later Queen of Sweden, and Princess Amalie, both of a marriagable age, were with her. The King was absent. On that occasion, my friendship with Prince Heinrich of Prussia began during playing with each other; at least I could not name an earlier occasion. We have agreed repeatedly that the origin of our friendship goes back to that first meeting.
So basically, apologies to doubting whichever biographer wrote about a childhood friendship just because I couldn't recall anything earlier than Heinrich dancing with her on the occasion of her meeting Fritz when she was 14! I must say, Heinrich & Sophie = childhood bffs as newly confirmed canon charms me.
Shortening everything: in this case, at a guess, because they figure people don't care about Catherine's German childhood and youth and want to get to the action in Russia as quickly as possible. With Wilhelmine's memoirs, since among the things they cut were the Dresden wild parties and FW getting punched after trying to grope Frau von Pannewitz, there's an obivious common denominator, i.e. illicit sex. (Or at least the hint of it.) With Trenck's memoirs, the editor admittedly wanted to cut down the rants and the Rokoko emo and get to the core swashbuckling adventure novel. Beats me what the category for the Thiébault rewriting was, though...
BTW, because YouTube users claimed the Russian Ekaterina tv series was on Amazon Prime, I checked, and Amazon Prime Germany doesn't have it, it only has the British Julia Ormond (as Catherine)-Vanessa Redgrave (as Elizabeth) one from the 80s or 90s which I saw a few scenes of back in the day. I checked out the beginning, and good lord. British scriptwriter, Sophie's Dad wasn't a King, and Zerbst wasn't a Kingdom. Also, a quick glance at the cast and then at wiki confirms what I was suspecting when seeing "Count Orlov" as the Russian officier supposed to escort Sophie and her mother en route to Russia - the script, probably to make Catherine not too alienating to its proper British audience, smashed Grigorii Orlov (her lover at the time of the coup), Alexeji Orlov (his brother, who killed Peter), Count Saltykov (Catherine's first lover, possibly the biological father of Paul) and Poniatowski into one character.
Maximilian Schell as the most Austrian Fritz ever was as I recalled from my very few glimpses a long time ago; the tv series actually has his dinner encounter with young Catherine, but zomg before that he invites her to a hunt. Fritz! Scriptwriters, I realise he wasn't your main subject, but really,do your research better. Oh, and he tells Sophie's ambitious Mom it's his destiny to rule middle Europe from the French border to the Siberian tundra if his fan plus Sophie get on the throne. Because clearly, the British scriptwriters don't recall that Prussia isn't Germany yet, and hey, was there something about the HRE, Austria or that Maria Theresia person? Good grief.
I kid you not, my first reaction was, "oh wow, this must be the AU where he hates her and this is the silent way he shows his utter disdain!" (okay, I realize that doesn't quite make sense either, but my poor brain tried) and only in your next line did I realize there was a far simpler explanation :P You and mildred have educated me too well :PP
<3 To further show the scriptwriters didn't do their work: When young Sophie manages to reply well when he adressed her with a complimentary sentence, he - in a positive fashion - asks her whether she's quoting Shakespeare. Again: DO YOUR RESEARCH, SCRITPWRITERS. This was before the internet, so they couldn't google "Friedrich II" and "Shakespeare" and get "great disdain" as a result, granted, but really, his literary preferences were not hard to find out even in the 80s.
(Oh, and young Sophie in the early 1740s probably had no idea who Shakespeare was, along with most of Germany. German Shakeaspeare mania was a thing of the 1770s onwards (though then it never really stopped).
Beats me what the category for the Thiébault rewriting was, though...
So I took a look at the editor's intro, and it seems like there are two aspects of the rewriting. One is that our editor thinks five volumes is way too much and, in his opinion, needed to be cut way down for interest. The other is that before the memoirs even reached this editor, they had already gone through four editions. Two at the hands of Thiébault père, one at the hand of another editor, whom our editor disapproves of greatly, saying that he considered the work his property, the author subject to his censorship, and Fritz as brought before his tribunal. Finally, one edition at the hands of Thiébault fils (who btw was a famous French general). Our editor, the condenser into 2 volumes guy, uses the fourth edition, that of Thiébault fils, for his text.
Now, it seems Thiébault fils did a certain amount of research for his edition, and it was observed by various parties that Thiébault père did not always have all the facts correct. So without having editions 2-4 at my disposal, I'm not actually sure *who* rewrote the Katte episode based on Wilhelmine's memoirs as published in 1810, whether it was Thiébault fils or our 1860 editor, or even the rewriting editor. It's not clear to me whether the rewriting editor of the 3rd edition was working before or after 1810. All I can see is that it's after 1807, so Thiébault père is dead, and the Napoleonic wars are on, so Thiébault fils is really really busy and has to delegate.
BTW, because YouTube users claimed the Russian Ekaterina tv series was on Amazon Prime
Amazon Prime in the US has it. I did my no-volume subtitle-watching thing with the first season. I was going to say they made some unhistorical choices, but they seem aware that there is a Holy Roman Empire, so by our new standards, they're doing great! They even manage to distinguish among the Orlovs, Saltykov, and Poniatowski. And I don't recall Fritz hunting, though they did give him hunting dogs. Presumably, borzois were easier to get a hold of in Russia, and they are based on greyhounds, but it was very jarring seeing Fritz walk around with these huge furry beasts instead of his shorthaired lapdogs. The most important thing is that the scriptwriters are aware that you shouldn't interrupt Fritz with trifles like Russia declaring war when he's playing the flute! :P
No wigs, which was weird (but Elizaveta's hair was gorgeous and I hate wigs anyway, so I'm biased in favor of the unhistorical choice), and we could talk Catherine characterization all day, but the most jarring thing for me was the dogs, which I have clearly spent way too much time thinking about for fic.
Because clearly, the British scriptwriters don't recall that Prussia isn't Germany yet, and hey, was there something about the HRE, Austria or that Maria Theresia person? Good grief.
Good grief indeed. He had some territory near the French border, but as we've seen in my recent historico-geographical write-up...there were some gaps! The gaps are politically significant!
Speaking of Macbeth AUs, and Ekaterina...the Russian series in question has Fritz plotting the assassination of all the remaining Romanovs, including Irrational Fanboy. Including when it is pointed out to him that Irrational Fanboy is in fact a fanboy. "No exceptions."
For someone who sat around for that many years waiting for Dad to die, and who kept a close eye on Elizaveta's declining health for many years and grouched about her not kicking the bucket already, this seems radically out of character on a par with liking Shakespeare. :P Child soldiers, occasionally, war crimes, absolutely, family abuse, you bet, but assassination? I have no evidence he ever even thought about offing another head of state. I've seen unsourced anecdotes where he was even opposed to targeted sniping of individual officers in warfare. I consider them plausible despite the lack of sources, since it was a widespread feature of European culture of honor at the time that you didn't do that.
the Russian series in question has Fritz plotting the assassination of all the remaining Romanovs, including Irrational Fanboy. Including when it is pointed out to him that Irrational Fanboy is in fact a fanboy. "No exceptions."
Who do you think he is, Russian scriptwriters, Vladimir Putin?
Seriously, though, I very much agree:this is both wildly anachronistic for the 18th century in general, and very ooc for Fritz in particular. (Not to mention self sabotaging, in terms of Irrational fanboy to an insane degree.) I‘m trying very had to think of any royal death (or attempted death) in that era which was suspected of being the result of plotting by foreign opponents, as opposed to local discontents, and coming up with zero. Gustav was offed by his own nobles, the wannabe assassin of Louis XV who was so gruesomely executed as punishment that the description of said execution became a stock staple of every „abolish the death penalty“ pamphlet was a Frenchman.
And seriously, if Fritz were the type go for assassinations, I could think of any number of more likely targets over the years: 1) Dad, 2) MT. There is a letter to Heinrich when Heinrich, in the wake of the successful Russia trip, is pushing the idea of maybe get more cordial with the Austrians beyond partitioning Poland, and Fritz is all, nah, that woman will have to lose her 30 years long habit of hating me first, and she won‘t. Like I said in my write up of the MItchell reports, MT is the one person even the most wistful spy never tries to sell as either being on death‘s door or inclined to peace if bribed enough. If there was one relentless (and well earned) enemy Fritz had in Europe, it was her. And the Habsburg/Hohenzollern rivalry was far more significant for his policies than the Romanows ever were, so if he‘d been the type to anachronistically plot the deaths of foreign dynasties, it would have been her (and presumably some of those kids she used to bind other European countries to her cause).
To go back to realism for a moment, in all the to and thro leading up to the Fritz and Joseph meeting at Neisse, it says something about the norms of the times that none of MT‘s objections were „he‘s totally going to use the chance to murder/harm/imprison you!“. And you don‘t get more suspicoius of Fritz than MT.
(Not to mention self sabotaging, in terms of Irrational fanboy to an insane degree.)
I think that's exactly what they were going for. Since we later get to see Peter's reversal of Russian policy during the war. "See? Our guy saved your guy, even though your guy tried to kill our guy!"
Riiiight, because he was Putin. *cough*
I could think of any number of more likely targets over the years: 1) Dad, 2) MT.
Yup! Plus, as we've discussed, Alexander and/or Olympias would have killed FW most likely before 1730, definitely after. Fritz never even entertained the idea.
Or, to quote Blanning: "Frederick never seems to have considered the most obvious solution—regicide—but he did plan to run away."
Most obvious to you, 21st century historian, not most obvious to him.
Heeeee. An obvious solution to someone, perhaps, who was not inside the whole mess, but that's very different from being internal to it and trying to work out what the best thing is. Kind of how it's much easier to see when a situation is abusive when one's an external observer than when one's inside it, I suppose.
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Fritzian library
Date: 2020-03-16 11:58 am (UTC)On the way from Stettin to Braunschweig or on the way back my mother usually made a stop at Berlin or Zerbst, depending on where my father was at the time. I remember how I was presented at age 8 for the first time to the late Queen Sophia Dorothea, the mother of King Frederick the Great; the King her husband was still alive then. Her four children, eleven years old Prince Heinrich, seven years old Prince Ferdinand, Princess Ulrike, the later Queen of Sweden, and Princess Amalie, both of a marriagable age, were with her. The King was absent. On that occasion, my friendship with Prince Heinrich of Prussia began during playing with each other; at least I could not name an earlier occasion. We have agreed repeatedly that the origin of our friendship goes back to that first meeting.
So basically, apologies to doubting whichever biographer wrote about a childhood friendship just because I couldn't recall anything earlier than Heinrich dancing with her on the occasion of her meeting Fritz when she was 14! I must say, Heinrich & Sophie = childhood bffs as newly confirmed canon charms me.
Re: Fritzian library
Date: 2020-03-17 02:26 am (UTC)I am also charmed by thinking about them reminiscing about this years later when he's at her court :)
ETA: boooooooo Gutenberg, or rather English translators, why must you shorten everything??
Re: Fritzian library
Date: 2020-03-17 12:14 pm (UTC)BTW, because YouTube users claimed the Russian Ekaterina tv series was on Amazon Prime, I checked, and Amazon Prime Germany doesn't have it, it only has the British Julia Ormond (as Catherine)-Vanessa Redgrave (as Elizabeth) one from the 80s or 90s which I saw a few scenes of back in the day. I checked out the beginning, and good lord. British scriptwriter, Sophie's Dad wasn't a King, and Zerbst wasn't a Kingdom. Also, a quick glance at the cast and then at wiki confirms what I was suspecting when seeing "Count Orlov" as the Russian officier supposed to escort Sophie and her mother en route to Russia - the script, probably to make Catherine not too alienating to its proper British audience, smashed Grigorii Orlov (her lover at the time of the coup), Alexeji Orlov (his brother, who killed Peter), Count Saltykov (Catherine's first lover, possibly the biological father of Paul) and Poniatowski into one character.
Maximilian Schell as the most Austrian Fritz ever was as I recalled from my very few glimpses a long time ago; the tv series actually has his dinner encounter with young Catherine, but zomg before that he invites her to a hunt. Fritz! Scriptwriters, I realise he wasn't your main subject, but really,do your research better. Oh, and he tells Sophie's ambitious Mom it's his destiny to rule middle Europe from the French border to the Siberian tundra if his fan plus Sophie get on the throne. Because clearly, the British scriptwriters don't recall that Prussia isn't Germany yet, and hey, was there something about the HRE, Austria or that Maria Theresia person? Good grief.
Re: Fritzian library
Date: 2020-03-19 04:03 am (UTC)I kid you not, my first reaction was, "oh wow, this must be the AU where he hates her and this is the silent way he shows his utter disdain!" (okay, I realize that doesn't quite make sense either, but my poor brain tried) and only in your next line did I realize there was a far simpler explanation :P You and mildred have educated me too well :PP
Re: Fritzian library
Date: 2020-03-19 06:46 am (UTC)(Oh, and young Sophie in the early 1740s probably had no idea who Shakespeare was, along with most of Germany. German Shakeaspeare mania was a thing of the 1770s onwards (though then it never really stopped).
Re: Fritzian library
Date: 2020-03-20 10:48 pm (UTC)Heee! Look at you learning things! I am gleeful over how far you've come in such a short time.
Re: Fritzian library
Date: 2020-03-20 10:46 pm (UTC)So I took a look at the editor's intro, and it seems like there are two aspects of the rewriting. One is that our editor thinks five volumes is way too much and, in his opinion, needed to be cut way down for interest. The other is that before the memoirs even reached this editor, they had already gone through four editions. Two at the hands of Thiébault père, one at the hand of another editor, whom our editor disapproves of greatly, saying that he considered the work his property, the author subject to his censorship, and Fritz as brought before his tribunal. Finally, one edition at the hands of Thiébault fils (who btw was a famous French general). Our editor, the condenser into 2 volumes guy, uses the fourth edition, that of Thiébault fils, for his text.
Now, it seems Thiébault fils did a certain amount of research for his edition, and it was observed by various parties that Thiébault père did not always have all the facts correct. So without having editions 2-4 at my disposal, I'm not actually sure *who* rewrote the Katte episode based on Wilhelmine's memoirs as published in 1810, whether it was Thiébault fils or our 1860 editor, or even the rewriting editor. It's not clear to me whether the rewriting editor of the 3rd edition was working before or after 1810. All I can see is that it's after 1807, so Thiébault père is dead, and the Napoleonic wars are on, so Thiébault fils is really really busy and has to delegate.
BTW, because YouTube users claimed the Russian Ekaterina tv series was on Amazon Prime
Amazon Prime in the US has it. I did my no-volume subtitle-watching thing with the first season. I was going to say they made some unhistorical choices, but they seem aware that there is a Holy Roman Empire, so by our new standards, they're doing great! They even manage to distinguish among the Orlovs, Saltykov, and Poniatowski. And I don't recall Fritz hunting, though they did give him hunting dogs. Presumably, borzois were easier to get a hold of in Russia, and they are based on greyhounds, but it was very jarring seeing Fritz walk around with these huge furry beasts instead of his shorthaired lapdogs. The most important thing is that the scriptwriters are aware that you shouldn't interrupt Fritz with trifles like Russia declaring war when he's playing the flute! :P
No wigs, which was weird (but Elizaveta's hair was gorgeous and I hate wigs anyway, so I'm biased in favor of the unhistorical choice), and we could talk Catherine characterization all day, but the most jarring thing for me was the dogs, which I have clearly spent way too much time thinking about for fic.
Because clearly, the British scriptwriters don't recall that Prussia isn't Germany yet, and hey, was there something about the HRE, Austria or that Maria Theresia person? Good grief.
Good grief indeed. He had some territory near the French border, but as we've seen in my recent historico-geographical write-up...there were some gaps! The gaps are politically significant!
Ekaterina
Date: 2020-03-21 10:42 pm (UTC)For someone who sat around for that many years waiting for Dad to die, and who kept a close eye on Elizaveta's declining health for many years and grouched about her not kicking the bucket already, this seems radically out of character on a par with liking Shakespeare. :P Child soldiers, occasionally, war crimes, absolutely, family abuse, you bet, but assassination? I have no evidence he ever even thought about offing another head of state. I've seen unsourced anecdotes where he was even opposed to targeted sniping of individual officers in warfare. I consider them plausible despite the lack of sources, since it was a widespread feature of European culture of honor at the time that you didn't do that.
Re: Ekaterina
Date: 2020-03-22 05:03 am (UTC)Who do you think he is, Russian scriptwriters, Vladimir Putin?
Seriously, though, I very much agree:this is both wildly anachronistic for the 18th century in general, and very ooc for Fritz in particular. (Not to mention self sabotaging, in terms of Irrational fanboy to an insane degree.) I‘m trying very had to think of any royal death (or attempted death) in that era which was suspected of being the result of plotting by foreign opponents, as opposed to local discontents, and coming up with zero. Gustav was offed by his own nobles, the wannabe assassin of Louis XV who was so gruesomely executed as punishment that the description of said execution became a stock staple of every „abolish the death penalty“ pamphlet was a Frenchman.
And seriously, if Fritz were the type go for assassinations, I could think of any number of more likely targets over the years: 1) Dad, 2) MT. There is a letter to Heinrich when Heinrich, in the wake of the successful Russia trip, is pushing the idea of maybe get more cordial with the Austrians beyond partitioning Poland, and Fritz is all, nah, that woman will have to lose her 30 years long habit of hating me first, and she won‘t. Like I said in my write up of the MItchell reports, MT is the one person even the most wistful spy never tries to sell as either being on death‘s door or inclined to peace if bribed enough. If there was one relentless (and well earned) enemy Fritz had in Europe, it was her. And the Habsburg/Hohenzollern rivalry was far more significant for his policies than the Romanows ever were, so if he‘d been the type to anachronistically plot the deaths of foreign dynasties, it would have been her (and presumably some of those kids she used to bind other European countries to her cause).
To go back to realism for a moment, in all the to and thro leading up to the Fritz and Joseph meeting at Neisse, it says something about the norms of the times that none of MT‘s objections were „he‘s totally going to use the chance to murder/harm/imprison you!“. And you don‘t get more suspicoius of Fritz than MT.
Re: Ekaterina
Date: 2020-03-23 01:14 am (UTC)I think that's exactly what they were going for. Since we later get to see Peter's reversal of Russian policy during the war. "See? Our guy saved your guy, even though your guy tried to kill our guy!"
Riiiight, because he was Putin. *cough*
I could think of any number of more likely targets over the years: 1) Dad, 2) MT.
Yup! Plus, as we've discussed, Alexander and/or Olympias would have killed FW most likely before 1730, definitely after. Fritz never even entertained the idea.
Or, to quote Blanning: "Frederick never seems to have considered the most obvious solution—regicide—but he did plan to run away."
Most obvious to you, 21st century historian, not most obvious to him.
Re: Ekaterina
Date: 2020-03-23 02:00 am (UTC)