Since selenak asked about Wartensleben genealogy, here goes!
Alexander Hermann von Wartensleben Hans Hermann von Katte's maternal grandfather. Prussian field marshal (the highest rank in the army).
Under F1, a member of the Three-Counts Cabinet, also called the Three-Ws (Die Drei Wehs), consisting of a Count von Wartenberg, Count von Wittgenstein, and Count von Wartensleben (Hans Hermann's grandfather). They were very politically influential until 1710, and raised tons of taxes to pay for F1's expenses. Including this little gem: "Young girls had to pay a 2 groschen maiden tax per month on their virginity."
Finally, plagues and famines and such hit, and there was no more money, and the cabinet had to be disbanded three years before FW became king. Wittgenstein was arrested for dishonesty, and apparently Wartenberg also saw his position as a way to line his pockets. Either the only honest man among the three, or the only one smart enough not to get caught, was Grandpa Wartensleben. Who continued to enjoy royal favor, if not the same level of political influence, under FW (notwithstanding having to pay for the executioner of the grandson he practically raised).
Friedrich Ludwig von Wartensleben Son of Alexander and thereby half maternal uncle of Hans Hermann. (Different mother than Katte's mother.) Born in 1707, making him 3 years younger than his nephew Hans Hermann, because Grandpa Alexander was procreating until he was 60 years old.
Died on January 5, 1782.
Title: oberhofmeister/grand-maître. One source says he was the grand-maître of the house of the dowager queen, widow of Frederick the Great, but if both Wikipedia and Lehndorff have him dying in early 1782, and Fritz didn't die until 1786, that must be wrong.
Anyway, all evidence points toward him being sugar-hoarder. If Kloosterhuis is right that Hans Hermann spent most of his time growing up with his grandfather, and Friedrich Ludwig was only three years younger, I would say this argues for Hans Hermann and sugar-hoarder knowing each other quite well!
Friedrich Sophus von Wartensleben Alexander's other son named Friedrich, born in 1709, so only two years after the previous son named Friedrich, who seems to have gone by Ludwig/Louis to reduce confusion. Ended up as envoy to Copenhagen and Stockholm under Fritz.
Shows up in other Seckendorff's journal as 1) the guy who keeps saying Fritz is totally fucking EC and thinks she has a hot ass, 2) the guy Fritz can't stand. Are those two facts related? You decide!
Leopold Alexander von Wartensleben Youngest son of Alexander, born 1710. Part of the Rheinsberg circle, made it onto Fritz's "6 most loved" list, and apparently, the only person in 1739 whom Fritz liked whom FW didn't immediately hate on those grounds.
I have this description of him:
The King has extreme jealousy against his son, making German quarrels (querelles d'Allemand) with anyone he believes in any particular connection with him. There is only one person who is excepted from the rule; and it's a very rare phenomenon. This person is the youngest of the Counts of Wartensleben, a tall, well-made man, discreet, modest, wise, honest, with very good sense, but who speaks little, and who, moreover, has no place of brilliance. With all this he found the secret of becoming an almost declared favorite, both of the father and the son, although in a much more marked degree with the latter, without the King, who is aware of it, taking umbrage. Finally, it is this honest man, who is the Prince's sole confidant in matters of some consequence, and who dares to speak to him frankly. Wartensleben is like (comme) the friend of his heart.
ETA: This means you should ignore any previous comments I made about one of the uncle Friedrichs being on the 6 most loved list. Clearly my past self was confused by ALL THE FREAKING WARTENSLEBENS.
Heinrich's favorite I can't tell! All of Alexander's sons are dead by 1782, and we're probably looking for someone of the next generation anyway, rather than someone a generation older than Heinrich. selenak, would you be so kind as to check the Lehndorff index next time and see if there's a first name given? One of the Lehdnorff volumes is really good about naming first names and relationships in the index, so hopefully this one is as well.
My best guess at present is the son of Fritz's favorite by the same name, Leopold Alexander (1745-1822). He's a lieutenant general by the end of his life, joins the Prince Heinrich regiment at Spandau in 1790, and as far as my clunky German can tell, he gets a pension left to him in Heinrich's will, which is then passed on to his wife and daughter after he himself dies.
Would be fun and totally in character if Fritz and Heinrich had favorites who were a father-son pair with the same name. :P
Thank you so much for the very tasty genealogy update!
Thoughts:
„Die drei Wehs“ - this isn‘t only a play on their names all starting with W, which is indeed pronounced Weh in German as a single letter, but with the German word for „Woe“, which is also Weh! So basically, the three Woes in English.
Sugar Hoarder‘s title: Schmidt-Lötzen translates this as Oberhofmarschall, not Oberhofmeister.
Lehndorff might not have been interested in Hans Herrmann, but he sure delivers on gossip about Hans Herrmann‘s family, doesn‘t he?
I will check out the volume register, if there is one, but it might be a while - I‘m on the road pretty much the entire next week.
Leopold Alexander the Younger as likely candidate for Heinrich‘s fave: *reads wiki entry* *reads Allgemeine Biographie entry*: Ouch. Poor guy. Poor, poor guy.
Entry says that his career and family life in middle age were going fine until the disastrous Prussian defeat at Jena/Auerstädt (where Napoleon kicked Prussia‘s butts and everyone kept muttering „would have never happened if Fritz was still alive“ forever after to get over it) where he was wounded. He went to Magdeburg, where the supreme commander hightailed it out of there when the French came, leaving this particular Wartensleben as the oldest officer in town, which meant that along with Governor von Kleist, whom he‘d never gotten along well, he was by default in charge. Wartensleben judged the Magdeburg walls which hadn‘t been renewed for ages a disaster not up to a siege with modern weapons and so the entire garnison surrendered when Marshal Ney, favourite Napoleonic Marshal of one Louis Fontane and his son Theodor, showed up. Guess who got blamed for this after Napoleon‘s defeat a few years later, got casheed, locked up and had his estates confiscated? The imprisonment was the only thing ended after a while but otherwise Leopold Alexander the Younger had to spend the end of his life living only from the pension granted to him in Heinrich‘s last will, along with his family, broken-hearted.
The other thing I found interesting was that wiki and Allgemeine Biographie say he actually started out as a pal of future FW2‘s until Fritz deigned him a bad influence and separated them in the mid 60s, though since young Wartensleben‘s career otherwise went on well and he got promoted by Fritz, it can‘t have been that much of a bad influence. I suspect more of general Fritz paranoia and/or spite re: his nephew. I mean, he told even Lehnsdorff not to hang out with future FW2 so much around the same time (or rather had a flunky tell Lehndorff) in the aftermath of the Borck firing. What Lehndorff and Wartensleben the younger have in common is Heinrich, but not really, since Lehndorff only notices this Wartensleben (if it is the same guy) in Heinrich‘s circle in 1782, whereas the „back off from nephew!“ orders were issued in the mid 1760s. (I guess Fritz may have believed his own propaganda about AW being influenced by „evil advisors“ and didn‘t want a repetition with Crown Prince Jr., and anyone who ever was a pal of AW‘s - which Lehndorff was - qualified? Though that wouldn‘t explain young Wartensleben, and he fell under the category „Fritz roleplays FW with nephew“...
Sugar Hoarder‘s title: Schmidt-Lötzen translates this as Oberhofmarschall, not Oberhofmeister.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Is there a huge difference? He seems to be the guy in charge of the courtiers either way. At least enough, I would think, to make the identification.
Lehndorff might not have been interested in Hans Herrmann, but he sure delivers on gossip about Hans Herrmann‘s family, doesn‘t he?
He sure does! Of course I wish he did both, but since he's supplying what no one else did, in a way that's even better? Because at least then Hans Hermann has some family members, which comes in useful for fic. (I was going to say, family members that are more than just names, but we didn't even have their names until we started trying to figure out how Lehndorff's gossip targets were related to our Hans Hermann!)
I will check out the volume register, if there is one, but it might be a while - I‘m on the road pretty much the entire next week.
No rush, just offering to do more research to satisfy your curiosity if I have more data. :)
I suspect more of general Fritz paranoia and/or spite re: his nephew.
Agreed. Fritz's control issues come to the fore whenever his heir is concerned: zero chill whatsoever.
No difference, Oberhofmarschall sounds more grandiose, that's all. There's an amusing interlude when the court is evacuating Berlin the second time, Amalie takes old Pöllnitz along in her carriage because no one else is offering a place in the hectic mess, and Lehndorff regards this as a proof no good deed goes unpunished because Pöllnitz promptly appoints himself Amalie's Oberhofmarschall (she doesn't have one since doesn't have a large enough Household of her own), to which everyone goes "oh no you're not!" (Wartensleben, too, of course!)
So: what was a type like Ludwig the sugar hoarder like as a young man, and was Fritz promoting or punishing him when making him his unwanted wife's Oberhofmarschall? Also, how come Grandpa Wartensleben, who was a baroque splendour guy, had such a cheapskate son? Then again: F1 had FW!
No difference, Oberhofmarschall sounds more grandiose, that's all.
Ah, okay, I thought you were presenting this as possible counterevidence to the identification. Looks like we're all on the same page, then.
Lehndorff regards this as a proof no good deed goes unpunished because Pöllnitz promptly appoints himself Amalie's Oberhofmarschall (she doesn't have one since doesn't have a large enough Household of her own), to which everyone goes "oh no you're not!"
LOL. Lehndorff has the best (non-Hans Hermann) gossip!
So: what was a type like Ludwig the sugar hoarder like as a young man, and was Fritz promoting or punishing him when making him his unwanted wife's Oberhofmarschall?
Both very good questions! In answer to the second one, probably a little of both: Fritz obviously didn't think highly enough of him to give him a better job, but it is respectable. What was he like as a young man? Your guess is as good as mine. Hans Hermann must have experienced a very different side of young Fritz than older Lehndorff did, and ditto with cousin Ludolf the diligent participator in youthful escapades and future terrible husband, so Hans Hermann may also have seen future sugar hoarder at his best. Or they may have hated each other, or anything in between, who knows.
Also, how come Grandpa Wartensleben, who was a baroque splendour guy, had such a cheapskate son? Then again: F1 had FW!
Incidentally, if sugar hoarder Ludwig did indeed make a pass at EC (in between hitting on the staff) and if Friedrich Sophus thought she was hot, that makes two Wartenslebens who considered her attractive.
AS for cousin Ludolf the future terrible husband: Lehndorff himself admists elsewhere that beloved Prince of Prussia AW was also a terrible husband. (By neglect, not by active insult, but stll, neglect hurts, too.)So it's entirely possible that Ludolf was great fun to be with for Hans Herrmann, but not so much for his wife. Especially if she, too, had feelings for Lehndorff when she married. I mean, we don't know that. For all we know, it was entirely on Lehndorff's side, and she just thought he was her nice cousin but didn't care either way whom she married as long as it was a good prospect, which Ludolf certainly was. But it's equally possible she'd been at least a bit in love, and that would not have made for a good start for the marriage, which in turn could have soured Ludolf's behavior.
Incidentally, she ended up as chief Lady in Waiting to Ferdinand's wife so spent a lot of time in Ferdinand's residence Friedrichsruh, or when Ferdinand & family were visiting Heinrich came along.
Incidentally, if sugar hoarder Ludwig did indeed make a pass at EC (in between hitting on the staff) and if Friedrich Sophus thought she was hot, that makes two Wartenslebens who considered her attractive.
Sorry, my wording was confusing. What I meant was that Friedrich Sophus said *Fritz* said she was hot. (This is in the 1730s, when the big Hohenzollern question of the decade is: is Fritz trying to get an heir on his wife or not?)
So it's entirely possible that Ludolf was great fun to be with for Hans Herrmann, but not so much for his wife.
Yes, exactly what I was thinking. And who else was a terrible husband but great fun for young Hans Hermann to hang out with? Fritz!
But it's equally possible she'd been at least a bit in love, and that would not have made for a good start for the marriage, which in turn could have soured Ludolf's behavior.
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timeasmymeasure
Wartenslebens
Date: 2020-03-07 07:44 pm (UTC)Alexander Hermann von Wartensleben
Hans Hermann von Katte's maternal grandfather. Prussian field marshal (the highest rank in the army).
Under F1, a member of the Three-Counts Cabinet, also called the Three-Ws (Die Drei Wehs), consisting of a Count von Wartenberg, Count von Wittgenstein, and Count von Wartensleben (Hans Hermann's grandfather). They were very politically influential until 1710, and raised tons of taxes to pay for F1's expenses. Including this little gem: "Young girls had to pay a 2 groschen maiden tax per month on their virginity."
Finally, plagues and famines and such hit, and there was no more money, and the cabinet had to be disbanded three years before FW became king. Wittgenstein was arrested for dishonesty, and apparently Wartenberg also saw his position as a way to line his pockets. Either the only honest man among the three, or the only one smart enough not to get caught, was Grandpa Wartensleben. Who continued to enjoy royal favor, if not the same level of political influence, under FW (notwithstanding having to pay for the executioner of the grandson he practically raised).
Friedrich Ludwig von Wartensleben
Son of Alexander and thereby half maternal uncle of Hans Hermann. (Different mother than Katte's mother.) Born in 1707, making him 3 years younger than his nephew Hans Hermann, because Grandpa Alexander was procreating until he was 60 years old.
Died on January 5, 1782.
Title: oberhofmeister/grand-maître. One source says he was the grand-maître of the house of the dowager queen, widow of Frederick the Great, but if both Wikipedia and Lehndorff have him dying in early 1782, and Fritz didn't die until 1786, that must be wrong.
Anyway, all evidence points toward him being sugar-hoarder. If Kloosterhuis is right that Hans Hermann spent most of his time growing up with his grandfather, and Friedrich Ludwig was only three years younger, I would say this argues for Hans Hermann and sugar-hoarder knowing each other quite well!
Friedrich Sophus von Wartensleben
Alexander's other son named Friedrich, born in 1709, so only two years after the previous son named Friedrich, who seems to have gone by Ludwig/Louis to reduce confusion. Ended up as envoy to Copenhagen and Stockholm under Fritz.
Shows up in other Seckendorff's journal as 1) the guy who keeps saying Fritz is totally fucking EC and thinks she has a hot ass, 2) the guy Fritz can't stand. Are those two facts related? You decide!
Leopold Alexander von Wartensleben
Youngest son of Alexander, born 1710. Part of the Rheinsberg circle, made it onto Fritz's "6 most loved" list, and apparently, the only person in 1739 whom Fritz liked whom FW didn't immediately hate on those grounds.
I have this description of him:
The King has extreme jealousy against his son, making German quarrels (querelles d'Allemand) with anyone he believes in any particular connection with him. There is only one person who is excepted from the rule; and it's a very rare phenomenon. This person is the youngest of the Counts of Wartensleben, a tall, well-made man, discreet, modest, wise, honest, with very good sense, but who speaks little, and who, moreover, has no place of brilliance. With all this he found the secret of becoming an almost declared favorite, both of the father and the son, although in a much more marked degree with the latter, without the King, who is aware of it, taking umbrage. Finally, it is this honest man, who is the Prince's sole confidant in matters of some consequence, and who dares to speak to him frankly. Wartensleben is like (comme) the friend of his heart.
ETA: This means you should ignore any previous comments I made about one of the uncle Friedrichs being on the 6 most loved list. Clearly my past self was confused by ALL THE FREAKING WARTENSLEBENS.
Heinrich's favorite
I can't tell! All of Alexander's sons are dead by 1782, and we're probably looking for someone of the next generation anyway, rather than someone a generation older than Heinrich.
My best guess at present is the son of Fritz's favorite by the same name, Leopold Alexander (1745-1822). He's a lieutenant general by the end of his life, joins the Prince Heinrich regiment at Spandau in 1790, and as far as my clunky German can tell, he gets a pension left to him in Heinrich's will, which is then passed on to his wife and daughter after he himself dies.
Would be fun and totally in character if Fritz and Heinrich had favorites who were a father-son pair with the same name. :P
Re: Wartenslebens
Date: 2020-03-08 08:15 am (UTC)Thoughts:
„Die drei Wehs“ - this isn‘t only a play on their names all starting with W, which is indeed pronounced Weh in German as a single letter, but with the German word for „Woe“, which is also Weh! So basically, the three Woes in English.
Sugar Hoarder‘s title: Schmidt-Lötzen translates this as Oberhofmarschall, not Oberhofmeister.
Lehndorff might not have been interested in Hans Herrmann, but he sure delivers on gossip about Hans Herrmann‘s family, doesn‘t he?
I will check out the volume register, if there is one, but it might be a while - I‘m on the road pretty much the entire next week.
Leopold Alexander the Younger as likely candidate for Heinrich‘s fave: *reads wiki entry* *reads Allgemeine Biographie entry*: Ouch. Poor guy. Poor, poor guy.
Entry says that his career and family life in middle age were going fine until the disastrous Prussian defeat at Jena/Auerstädt (where Napoleon kicked Prussia‘s butts and everyone kept muttering „would have never happened if Fritz was still alive“ forever after to get over it) where he was wounded. He went to Magdeburg, where the supreme commander hightailed it out of there when the French came, leaving this particular Wartensleben as the oldest officer in town, which meant that along with Governor von Kleist, whom he‘d never gotten along well, he was by default in charge. Wartensleben judged the Magdeburg walls which hadn‘t been renewed for ages a disaster not up to a siege with modern weapons and so the entire garnison surrendered when Marshal Ney, favourite Napoleonic Marshal of one Louis Fontane and his son Theodor, showed up. Guess who got blamed for this after Napoleon‘s defeat a few years later, got casheed, locked up and had his estates confiscated? The imprisonment was the only thing ended after a while but otherwise Leopold Alexander the Younger had to spend the end of his life living only from the pension granted to him in Heinrich‘s last will, along with his family, broken-hearted.
The other thing I found interesting was that wiki and Allgemeine Biographie say he actually started out as a pal of future FW2‘s until Fritz deigned him a bad influence and separated them in the mid 60s, though since young Wartensleben‘s career otherwise went on well and he got promoted by Fritz, it can‘t have been that much of a bad influence. I suspect more of general Fritz paranoia and/or spite re: his nephew. I mean, he told even Lehnsdorff not to hang out with future FW2 so much around the same time (or rather had a flunky tell Lehndorff) in the aftermath of the Borck firing. What Lehndorff and Wartensleben the younger have in common is Heinrich, but not really, since Lehndorff only notices this Wartensleben (if it is the same guy) in Heinrich‘s circle in 1782, whereas the „back off from nephew!“ orders were issued in the mid 1760s. (I guess Fritz may have believed his own propaganda about AW being influenced by „evil advisors“ and didn‘t want a repetition with Crown Prince Jr., and anyone who ever was a pal of AW‘s - which Lehndorff was - qualified? Though that wouldn‘t explain young Wartensleben, and he fell under the category „Fritz roleplays FW with nephew“...
Re: Wartenslebens
Date: 2020-03-08 03:19 pm (UTC)¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Is there a huge difference? He seems to be the guy in charge of the courtiers either way. At least enough, I would think, to make the identification.
Lehndorff might not have been interested in Hans Herrmann, but he sure delivers on gossip about Hans Herrmann‘s family, doesn‘t he?
He sure does! Of course I wish he did both, but since he's supplying what no one else did, in a way that's even better? Because at least then Hans Hermann has some family members, which comes in useful for fic. (I was going to say, family members that are more than just names, but we didn't even have their names until we started trying to figure out how Lehndorff's gossip targets were related to our Hans Hermann!)
I will check out the volume register, if there is one, but it might be a while - I‘m on the road pretty much the entire next week.
No rush, just offering to do more research to satisfy your curiosity if I have more data. :)
I suspect more of general Fritz paranoia and/or spite re: his nephew.
Agreed. Fritz's control issues come to the fore whenever his heir is concerned: zero chill whatsoever.
Re: Wartenslebens
Date: 2020-03-08 05:51 pm (UTC)So: what was a type like Ludwig the sugar hoarder like as a young man, and was Fritz promoting or punishing him when making him his unwanted wife's Oberhofmarschall? Also, how come Grandpa Wartensleben, who was a baroque splendour guy, had such a cheapskate son? Then again: F1 had FW!
Re: Wartenslebens
Date: 2020-03-08 06:05 pm (UTC)Ah, okay, I thought you were presenting this as possible counterevidence to the identification. Looks like we're all on the same page, then.
Lehndorff regards this as a proof no good deed goes unpunished because Pöllnitz promptly appoints himself Amalie's Oberhofmarschall (she doesn't have one since doesn't have a large enough Household of her own), to which everyone goes "oh no you're not!"
LOL. Lehndorff has the best (non-Hans Hermann) gossip!
So: what was a type like Ludwig the sugar hoarder like as a young man, and was Fritz promoting or punishing him when making him his unwanted wife's Oberhofmarschall?
Both very good questions! In answer to the second one, probably a little of both: Fritz obviously didn't think highly enough of him to give him a better job, but it is respectable. What was he like as a young man? Your guess is as good as mine. Hans Hermann must have experienced a very different side of young Fritz than older Lehndorff did, and ditto with cousin Ludolf the diligent participator in youthful escapades and future terrible husband, so Hans Hermann may also have seen future sugar hoarder at his best. Or they may have hated each other, or anything in between, who knows.
Also, how come Grandpa Wartensleben, who was a baroque splendour guy, had such a cheapskate son? Then again: F1 had FW!
I see you answered your own question. ;)
Re: Wartenslebens
Date: 2020-03-09 05:45 pm (UTC)AS for cousin Ludolf the future terrible husband: Lehndorff himself admists elsewhere that beloved Prince of Prussia AW was also a terrible husband. (By neglect, not by active insult, but stll, neglect hurts, too.)So it's entirely possible that Ludolf was great fun to be with for Hans Herrmann, but not so much for his wife. Especially if she, too, had feelings for Lehndorff when she married. I mean, we don't know that. For all we know, it was entirely on Lehndorff's side, and she just thought he was her nice cousin but didn't care either way whom she married as long as it was a good prospect, which Ludolf certainly was. But it's equally possible she'd been at least a bit in love, and that would not have made for a good start for the marriage, which in turn could have soured Ludolf's behavior.
Incidentally, she ended up as chief Lady in Waiting to Ferdinand's wife so spent a lot of time in Ferdinand's residence Friedrichsruh, or when Ferdinand & family were visiting Heinrich came along.
Re: Wartenslebens
Date: 2020-03-09 06:04 pm (UTC)Sorry, my wording was confusing. What I meant was that Friedrich Sophus said *Fritz* said she was hot. (This is in the 1730s, when the big Hohenzollern question of the decade is: is Fritz trying to get an heir on his wife or not?)
So it's entirely possible that Ludolf was great fun to be with for Hans Herrmann, but not so much for his wife.
Yes, exactly what I was thinking. And who else was a terrible husband but great fun for young Hans Hermann to hang out with? Fritz!
But it's equally possible she'd been at least a bit in love, and that would not have made for a good start for the marriage, which in turn could have soured Ludolf's behavior.
*nod* Quite possible.