Frederick the Great discussion post 9
Jan. 13th, 2020 09:09 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahn...I leave you guys alone for one weekend and it's time for a new Fritz post, lol!
I'm gonna reply to the previous post comments but I guess new letter-reading, etc. should go in this one :)
Frederick the Great links
I'm gonna reply to the previous post comments but I guess new letter-reading, etc. should go in this one :)
Frederick the Great links
Re: Toppings of all types, continued
Date: 2020-01-13 10:24 pm (UTC)That, or topping from the bottom. Agree that's Heinrich! There's also the bratty bottom, who sasses at you until you make him shut up, because he wants you to work for your dominance. Not sure that fits Heinrich as well (it's independent of emotional topping/bottoming, though--purely a sexual dynamic), but it's a possibility.
Could totally see Marwitz as a bratty bottom, though. Hmm, Heinrich might like that when he was topping. It might be very satisfying to have to work to dominate someone who was mouthing off, and then to succeed at it. Not to say he's working out any fraternal issues here... ;)
the five people in question
Six people! (Keith, Katte, Suhm, Fredersdorf, Algarotti, Voltaire.) I considered Suhm and Fredersdorf as complements, so there were only five sections.
Also, just to be perfectly clear: I agree with what you said in another post that Voltaire was het, and he and Fritz never irl made it to handjobs. But if they DID ever have sex, we agree it would be handjobs and petting and praise kink all the way. And some banter, of course, especially during the foreplay. I'm sure the banter gets them both turned on like whoa.
Re: Toppings of all types, continued
Date: 2020-01-14 07:44 am (UTC)Oh, I'm pretty sure working out fraternal issues is what Fritz is doing post big clash 1746 after Marwitz gets fired/rehired as a guard, considering Lehndorff reports ten years later that in the intervening years, sometimes Fritz was favouring Marwitz and sometimes treating him like a criminal. Also my headcanon is that in 1756 when he resurfaces in Heinrich's social circle again - which Lehndorff reports as something new, and thankfully, data wise, adds he himself hasn't seen Marwitz since 1749 - Heinrich and Marwitz have sex one more time and also an honest wrap-up conversation about what the hell happened in 1746. (Pre war 1756 is a mild time for fraternal relations; Heinrich has arranged himself with his marriage, AW is alive and happy (and happily flirting with Mina), and Fritz doesn't demand any new submissions since he's busy concluding treaties with England and hasn't invaded Saxony yet.) Marwitz says something along the lines of "for what it's worth, I never did actually do it with your brother, he's not into that, it's all talk and intense stares with him while he makes you sweat in other ways". That sets Heinrich's mind at rest. It also kills any remaining sexual interest in Marwitz on his part, because Hohenzollerns are fucked up like that. (Also, of course, the outbreak of the war means everyone gets their priorities rearranged anyway. If "beautiful" Marwitz isn't identitical with Marwitz the dead Quartermaster from the Rheinsberg obelisk who died in 1759, that means he passes out of both brothers' lives for good then and maybe post war meets up with cousin female Marwitz the salon hostess and former lady-in-waiting to Wilhelmine in Vienna.
As to Heinrich working out fraternal issues with Marwitz as mouthy bottom pre and during big clash with Fritz of February and March 1746: am currently tempted to go with this scenario: 19 years old Heinrich, like Fritz, is freshly returned from the Second Silesian War and on a victory high. (Also on a survival high, I mean, he'd made it through his first few actual battles and done well, not yet on a general level, that's a decade in the future, but he's proved that he can't just personally survive but can be given some men and successfully lead them, too. Big Bro isn't the only one with military talent. Yay!) Up to this point, relations with Fritz aren't actually dysfunctional. I mean, Fritz has bossed him around re: not being a slacker and applying himself to reading, but that worked out, like young Fritz before him, Heinrich discovered he loves reading and doesn't mind hard work at all, he thrives on it. All the same, 19th years old Heinrich is in a heady mood, plus Fritz - who is busy firing off angry letters at Wihelmine and also had Trenck imprisoned for the first time - is probably in a bad mood and snappish. So when during one of those times he's in Potsdam with Fritz he spots Marwitz the hot page he falls for him, it's 80% young love/lust, but it' also 20 % because that's one page Big Bro shows an interest in and 19 years old Heinrich fresh from Silesia is in a "yes I can" mood. And wants to demonstrate that he may not be King, but he's got no problem pulling, even someone who's supposed to only care about the King's favour.
To make it crystal clear, I don't think he fell for Marwitz because of that, that he just went and looked for a page his brother was showing favour to, just that 19 years old Heinrich went "wow, that guy is hot! I'm in love!" and then "so what if Big Bro also fancies him? Look out, Fritz, I'm a grown up now! I'm feeling pretty invincible right now! En garde!"
We've been wondering whether Heinrich or Fritz showed interest in Marwitz first, but if my order of events is right, it would additionally account for Fritz going from being pretty well disposed towards younger brother in 1745 to extraordinarily bitchy in those letters in February/March 1746. And of course Heinrich's timing couldn't have been worse, since Fritz has just had the experience of favoured batman Trenck not just possibly spying for the Austrians but carrying on with sister Amalie behind Fritz' back. So events spiral out of control and Heinrich ends up with the first incident in the list of "how I hate you, let me count the ways" in his life.
I'm sure the banter gets them both turned on like whoa.
Definitely. Doesn't Voltaire even in the anti Fritz satiric pamphlet/memoirs state Fritz was witty? My current headcanon for Voltaire's feelings re: Fritz is that at first when Crown Prince Fritz writes, it's a mixture of calculation (this is a future King we're talking about, and a state pension is always really useful to have, especially if in your own country you could land in prison very easily), idealism (this is a future King we're talking about, and Voltaire now imagines he could change the world, or a part of it, for the better in ways other than through writings; cue him reading up Plato again), head turned by flattery (fan letters by now are nothing new, but coming from royalty they are) and some human interest (hang on, I've heard those stories about his ghastly father, I know all about ghastly fathers, and here's this young man writing in quite impressive French, having evidently succeeded in making something of himself despite the ogre on the throne - I see something of myself here!). The interest intensifies through the correspondance, but he's not actually in love in the Crown Prince years, flirtatious phrases like "I dream of my prince like I would of a mistress" when he hears FW is on his death bed not withstanding. No, he falls for King Fritz when he meets him, actually not so much because of the change in station but because King Fritz suddenly displays way more snark than Crown Prince Fritz did, turns out to be wily on a level Voltaire clearly hadn't anticipated and thus is a constant challenge of wits, and also, there's suddenly competition by none other than Émilie's recurring rebound Maupertuis. And that's when the French Homer truly falls in love.
Re: Toppings of all types, continued
Date: 2020-01-14 09:51 pm (UTC)It also kills any remaining sexual interest in Marwitz on his part, because Hohenzollerns are fucked up like that.
This made me laugh out loud.
Re: Toppings of all types, continued
Date: 2020-01-15 07:35 am (UTC)Entirely agree, though I admit I let my own bias colour my perception, because I found the Fritz-Voltaire letters far more interesting to read once he's King, they've met a couple of times and all the mutual "you're the greatest" subsides - though doesn't disappear - and gets intermingled with some needling and snarking. Mutual gushing isn't what I want out of Fritz/Voltaire. That's what other ships are there for.:)
Incidentally, that's why I was rolling my eyes when Bodanis in his summary of Voltaire's early visits to Prussia goes "all that Frederick had shown to Voltaire about himself was a lie" and how crushed about that Voltaire must have been because, nope, not the impression I got from reading the Pleschinski-translated letters. I mean, naturally there was some disillusionment re: philosopher king with peaceful intentions at that point, but I definitely thought Voltaire's interest in Fritz the person as opposed to Fritz the potential life long financial security and tool to change one realm for the better doubled. And I don't think he'd have written that mid Silesian war love declaration about being unable to live with Fritz or without him and how he's in love with Fritz' mind which never ceases to infuriate him to nice Crown Prince Fritz of the fan letters.
Re: Toppings of all types, continued
Date: 2020-01-17 01:55 am (UTC)My ideal Fritz/Voltaire would be, oh, 10% mutual gushing, 20% meeting of the minds, 30% snark at other people and institutions, 20% snark/needling aimed at each other, 15% "OMGWTF even???" about each other, 5% wanting to strangle each other. With an intense romantic current running under 100% of it.
Bonus points if they can fit it all into one day.
Re: Toppings of all types, continued
Date: 2020-01-17 03:14 pm (UTC)To wit: did he think he would be getting someone like Suhm, personality wise? Of course Voltaire was a satirist, not a diplomat, but still, young Fritz could have assumed, like a good fanboy, that Voltaire only turned his pen against people and institutions who deserved it. And was of course above shady business deals, or the vanity of demanding medals.
All the later "Voltaire is scum - OMG I want him so badly!" - how much of that is "I want him so much because he's such a shady character, as opposed to "I want him inspite of him being such a shady character"?
On a non-Voltairian matter, I reread your "who tops" essay, and suddenly when I come across Algarotti and Fritz travelling in the carriage west in 1740, complete with petting, err, Algarotti treated like a mistress, it makes "ping" in my mind: west as in Straßburg via Bayreuth? That trip? The very one where young AW is also present the entire time? Or are we talking about another trip? Because if it's the same, this demands the follow up question: did Fritz and Algarotti have a spectator kink? Because I doubt Fritz paid for another carriage for his younger brother.
Re: Toppings of all types, continued
Date: 2020-01-17 04:56 pm (UTC)Interesting question. It had occurred to me before that while Fritz's ideal partner probably had Suhm's personality and Voltaire's brain, there might be something mutually exclusive in what he wanted out of each of them, in that Voltaire's viciousness was a feature rather than a bug, or at least a feature/bug. Can you get a diplomatic satirist at the Voltaire level, who's easy to live with but savages his enemies for fun and profit? Maybe, but even if you find this unicorn, you have to be perfectly agreed on who the enemies are to avoid a falling out.
Now, did Fritz delude himself into thinking this was what he was getting? Well, it's extremely easy to believe, at some level, that because you're right about everything, all right-thinking people agree with you. (My wife always said she had to give up Facebook, because it was the place where she learned all the worst political beliefs of all the people she thought she liked.)
So did Fritz think Voltaire was only going to savage the people Fritz wanted savaged? Quite likely. Was that ever statistically likely? Not really. Would Suhm have been able to live with Fritz longer than Voltaire? Probably. Would Fritz have retained a lifelong addiction if Suhm had decided he'd had enough and left? I really doubt it.
, it makes "ping" in my mind: west as in Straßburg via Bayreuth? That trip? The very one where young AW is also present the entire time?
Yep! For those just joining, around August 1740, right after Fritz becomes king, these things happen.
He travels west to inspect Prussian domains near the French and Dutch borders.
He takes Algarotti and 18-yo AW with him, along with a bunch of other people.
They visit Wilhelmine in Bayreuth. Like everyone in the world except Lehndorff, she's quite taken (but not hopelessly smitten) with Algarotti.
Fritz decides to go to France. Incognito! He forges a passport and takes AW, Algarotti, and a Prussian nobleman across the border into Strasbourg. Fritz gets recognized by a Prussian deserter almost immediately. A farce ensues in which he and his companions deny that he's the Prussian King, until finally they can't any more. Fritz is very upset and disappointed.
Their false passports are detected, and they spend the night in custody, something Fritz pretends never happened but AW reports. (Fritz will later pretend AW was never present on this trip at all, after the Fritz/AW falling out in 1757/1758.)
Stung by this misadventure, and also possibly because he gets hit by a bout of malaria at this time, Fritz cancels the trip to Paris, which he never does get to visit. (Heinrich does, after Fritz's death.)
Fritz goes to Cleves, which is a Prussian holding, and meets Voltaire for the first time in person there, while in the grip of a malarial fever. (Voltaire reports a meet-cute where his first encounter with Fritz consisted of visiting his sickbed and taking his pulse.)
While in Cleves, Fritz prioritizes getting a small principality back, that of Herstall, to which he has a legitimate claim (more than Silesia), so that he's been king for like two months and is already throwing his weight around and showing the "don't fuck with me" side of his personality. According to Voltaire's memoirs, this, not the Silesian invasion, is when he starts to have his first inklings that publishing the Anti-Machiavel while the military occupation of Herstall is in progress might not be the world's best idea.
did Fritz and Algarotti have a spectator kink? Because I doubt Fritz paid for another carriage for his younger brother.
Spectator, hell. You think Algarotti wasn't one of Voltaire's sources for the manuscript on how to succeed at Fritz's court? Katte was starting a family collection back in the 1720s!
More seriously, I never said they had sex *in the carriage* in my write-up; that was
I honestly think Fritz would have had a spectator squick. He was big on privacy and apparently physically modest (probably self-conscious and possibly body image issues).
I also don't think it was in the carriage because carriage rides were super uncomfortable, with all the jolting, and with Fritz's health problems, I doubt he would have been physically comfortable enough to relax and have sex. I the entire carriage ride was Fritz talking and Algarotti occasionally getting a word in edgewise. And everyone else listening.
How many people do you think per carriage, btw? I've got a record of 2 royals and 2 nobles on this trip, plus assorted servants.
Re: Toppings of all types, continued
Date: 2020-01-17 05:41 pm (UTC)Yep, that's what I'm thinking, too, though I'm not sure Fritz knew this - that he wanted different things from them - before actually meeting Voltaire. As long as they're still exchanging mutually gushing admiration letters, he might have been thinking he'd get a slightly more sharp tongued Suhm. I mean, as of the early 1740s, he had had no comparable relationship to the one he'd end up having with Voltaire in his life, and the cult of romantic friendship certainly does not entail constant verbal sparring. So I'm thinking maybe on the one hand, Voltaire didn't live up to his idea of him as a person, but on the other, he simultanously realised that what he was getting with Voltaire was something which turned up way more addictive than if Voltaire really had been sage and wise and just etc.
Stung by this misadventure, and also possibly because he gets hit by a bout of malaria at this time, Fritz cancels the trip to Paris, which he never does get to visit. (Heinrich does, after Fritz's death.)
And before. One trip in 1784, one just before the French Revolution and after Fritz' death. The Paris trip from 1784 is the one whom this superlonging old age letter from Fritz to Heinrich while he was there is about (in the old age section of my letter write up):
My dearest brother,
When you are in Paris, my dear brother, a multitude of materials appear under the pen; a prodigiously populated city, an industrious nation, are inexhaustible sources from which one draws a hundred pleasant, interesting and instructive things. In this I find myself very backward, and unable to return the favor to you. Shall I speak to you of my vines, which have produced very poor grapes, of our trees, which the cold strips of their leaves, of my garden, which the cold will force me to abandon shortly? What will I tell you about society? I live as a recluse like the monks of La Trappe, on which you have glanced; I work, I walk, and I don't see anyone. But I talk to the dead by reading their good works, which is better than invoking the manes and talking to the Sorbonne and its evil genius, a use that masonry has put in vogue, and that popular superstition adopted. I beg you, my dear brother, to familiarize yourself a little with the Gallic hermits, so that when you return you can live with your old brother, who no longer cares about the world except by a thread. What a fall to leave Paris, and find yourself in Potsdam, at the home of an old rambler who has already sent part of his big baggage to take the lead for the last trip he has left to make. There, you saw busts, you were presented with operas, you heard famous academicians declaim; here, you will see an old cacochym body, whose memory is almost lost, who will annoy you with used words and the nonsense of his gossip. But bear in mind, however, that this old man loves you more than all the fine ésprits in Paris do. Be convinced of his tender attachment and the high regard with which, etc.
You think Algarotti wasn't one of Voltaire's sources for the manuscript on how to succeed at Fritz's court? Katte was starting a family collection back in the 1720s!
LOL! Well, Algarotti had some catching up to do, and he was triangle-experienced...
I also don't think it was in the carriage because carriage rides were super uncomfortable, with all the jolting, and with Fritz's health problems, I doubt he would have been physically comfortable enough to relax and have sex.
Oh absolutely. Even Casanova avoided having sex in a driving carriage for that reason. Presumably if they did get it on, Algarotti and Fritz waited till the kid was off to his own bed, so to speak, in a nice and comfortable inn. (And in the later to be burned Bayreuth town residence.)
How many people do you think per carriage, btw? I've got a record of 2 royals and 2 nobles on this trip, plus assorted servants.
Depends on the type of carriage they were using. There were really different sizes available. Remember, the Duc de Croy is slightly scandalized Joseph during his incognito visit in Paris shows up in "a shaby German chaise with post horses driving quickly", with only wet two servants (it's raining) and another one on horseback. ("That's how they always travel in Germany, no matter in which weather or during which time of the year, in open and very ugly carriages.") But then Joseph really did not have travelling companions a la Algarotti and AW, he had "only" the three servants. I think the carriage Bach and son Friedemann are using at the start of Mein Name ist Bach is likely similar to what Fritz & Co. could have been travelling in. They're only two people, but have all the musical instruments with them, and inside the carriage you could fit in four.
Anyway, the servants don't get to drive inside the carriage, they're either on separate horses or outside on the coach box or even on the top of the roof. Hang on - I just recalled a famous example. When Marie Antoinette & Louis made their doomed escape attempt, they were using one carriage, for the entire royal family - five all in all, two kids, Louis' sister Elisabeth & MA & L - as well as a servant and the coachman. In the movie I already mentoned once, La Nuit de Varennes, which is about the random company following them, you can see in this clip what a carriage containing six people inside - with ample space to go - looks like. (One of them is Harvey Keitel as Thomas Paine, btw.) Meanwhile, Casanova enters the film in a much smaller and cheaper chaise (he's old and a librarian in Bohemia, after all), which is commonly used by just one or at most two travellers, as seen here.
That, and he had competition with Voltaire which he didn't have with Suhm. No Émilie in Suhm's life! And competition surely appealed ot his inner terrier.
Re: Toppings of all types, continued
Date: 2020-01-17 06:11 pm (UTC)No no no. He had no idea, I'm sure! What Fritz wants and what Fritz needs and what Fritz is drawn to and what Fritz knows are like 4 different things. :P
So in 1740, I don't know if he thinks he's getting a Suhm, exactly, in that I don't think he was looking for exactly that dynamic or made that comparison, but I think he's drawn to the idea of an older guy who's going to be amazing and set the bar high for Fritz's education and adore him and they're going to agree on everything and it's going to be SO. MUCH. FUN.
I do not think he went into it thinking, "Wow, this guy is savage, love it." I think he went in thinking, "Brilliant, witty as hell, shares my priorities (savaging the right people would be a sort of half-conscious manifestation of this), so much to learn from him, what's not to love?"
he simultanously realised that what he was getting with Voltaire was something which turned up way more addictive than if Voltaire really had been sage and wise and just etc.
Realized as in consciously, or as in had the emotional experience of finding him irresistibly addictive against his will? Because if Catt is anything to go by, Fritz lived and died in denial that Voltaire's sharp edges were a key and indispensable part of the attraction. (Not that he wasn't right that a less sharp Voltaire would have been preferable in many ways, but as we all agree, because Fritz was Fritz, the dynamic would have been entirely different and I don't think he ever appreciated that.)
Even Casanova avoided having sex in a driving carriage for that reason.
Well, then! Definitely no Fritz/Algarotti action in the carriage. I'm not even saying they necessarily had sex *on this trip*; it could have been any time before or after, at least up until Fritz goes off to war, leaving Algarotti hanging and increasingly disillusioned.
Paris trip from 1784 is the one whom this superlonging old age letter from Fritz to Heinrich while he was there is about
Oh, right, duh. Thanks for the reminder.
Okay, so we have one carriage, 4 people inside, and a dozen or so on horseback or the outside of the carriage. Useful knowledge in case anyone ever decides to write this trip. ;) I mean, he meets up with Wilhelmine, crosses a border illegally for the first time, gets arrested, gets sick (lots of hurt/comfort potential), meets Voltaire for the first time, and invades a territory for the first time! Plus Algarotti and AW are present for all your family relationship and boyfriend needs. It's the perfect setup for a fic.
Re: Toppings of all types, continued
Date: 2020-01-17 07:46 pm (UTC)Don't Forget: an older guy without that guy's s.o.; reading the few Émilie letters in conjunction while recalling the Voltaire ones reminded me thath they were really angling (and expecting) a double invitation there, until Fritz point blank writes he wants to see Voltaire and only Voltaire. Now, even Fritz the budding misogynist can't claim Émilie would be boring to meet, so clearly whatever fantasy he has of what Voltaire will be like in person, it comes with Voltaire being focused utterly and exclusively on him.
Incidentally, since the Algarotti dissertation has reminded me again: do you think a reason why Voltaire - as opposed to Maupertuis and Algarotti - does not get a permanent job offer in 1740, or, for that matter, 1743 - is that he might be willing to come for a visit without the Marquise, but would, were he to get an actual court position, undoubtedly insist she was to come as well? Because otherwise it's a bit odd that Fritz is not offering his favourite writer what he's offering all the other intellectuals. Unless he's playing hard to get? (In which case: totally works. Since Voltaire catches a massive case of Maupertuis jealousy. And maybe a bit of Algarotti jealousy besides.)
Or: Fritz wants to ditch Voltaire to Émilie for good for him, to prove his serious intentions, and is most annoyed this does not happen. I mean, if he's rolling out the Dido and Aeneas comparisons by 1743 already...
Set up for fanfic: true, almost an embarrasment of riches. Alas, my brain currently is still on crack fic mode. I’m posting the result in a separate reply.
Re: Toppings of all types, continued
Date: 2020-01-17 08:01 pm (UTC)Or: Fritz wants to ditch Voltaire to Émilie for good for him, to prove his serious intentions, and is most annoyed this does not happen.
I think it's quite likely that he's gotten the vibe of Voltaire refusing to come without Émilie, and at this point in time, wants Voltaire to be the one to ask so Fritz has the upper hand when he says Émilie can't come. Maybe.
It's never been obvious to me what Fritz was thinking, though. Maybe if I read their Crown Prince-years correspondence myself, I'll get a better idea.
Ooh, crack fic! *goes to read*
Re: Toppings of all types, continued
Date: 2020-01-18 05:02 am (UTC)I totally forgot to mention this additional chronologically relevant Fritz/Algarotti episode: July 1740, Algarotti tells Fritz that northern Europeans aren't as hot-blooded as southern Europeans; Fritz takes up the gauntlet and...
Writes a poem about one of Algarotti's orgasms?
Then sends a copy to Voltaire. !!!
Poem is then lost or "lost" to posterity, but the original manuscript owned by Algarotti turns up in Berlin in 2011, and you will see it if you google "Frederick the Great orgasm" (which you should do at every possible opportunity).
The poem is abstract enough to then leave people wondering, "Is this a sign that Fritz and Algarotti got it on?" "Or is this a sign that Fritz was all talk, because it kinda totally proves Algarotti's point?" (And yes, the latter argument has been made by slasher fans, i.e. is not exclusively no-homo BS.)
Discuss!
Re: Toppings of all types, continued
Date: 2020-01-18 08:19 am (UTC)Also: History Today features an English translation by McDonogh whom you, Mildred, have repeatedly described to me as an unreliable biographer who managed to confuse EC the wife of Fritz with EC the wife of FW2, as well as Henricus Minor with Henricus Major, which does not exactly inspire confidence in his French-translating abilities. So I tried to track down the Zeit article which the History Today article says reported the rediscovery of the manuscript and contained the entire poem (in German). I found the article, but not the translated poem. And I can guess why: Copyright! (Of the German translation.) Further googling only led me to an indignant article from a gay magazine referencing the poem in a rant about how Blanning's Fritz biography, which was published in German last year, wasn't gay enough (they grudgingly acknowledge Banning has no doubt of Fritz' general gayness, but Banning is accused of "heterosexualizing" Fritz by accepting the tale of the Dresden/Orzelska sex instead of rejecting it as clearly deriving from Wilhelmine's memoirs and thus being questionable since Wihelmine wasn't along in Dresden and just goes by word of mouth afterwards; to which I say, guys, did none of you experiment in their teenage days? Trying out het sex when young does not make him less gay!).
So McDonogh's English version will have to do, I suppose. Anyway. Leaving aside that Fritz in the poem gives Algarotti a female partner - Chloris is straight from the Augustan poets as a name of a mistress - as simply using a literary trope, he's clearly having fun describing Algarotti in the throws of orgasm. Not that I don't trust him to have an active imagination, but I don't think he'd do that if he hadn't at least once watched the goods delivered, so to speak, because otherwise that's taking a considerable liberty with someone whom you want to stay with you at your court, even taking different concepts of privacy and royal prerogative in the 18th century into account.
Sending it to Voltaire: young Voltaire made his name with a pamphlet claiming the Prince Regent Philippe d'Orleans - son of Liselotte and the very gay Monsieur of the same name, uncle to Franz Stephan - did it with his daughter, and of course at the time Fritz is sending the poem he absolutely wants to have a copy of the Pucelle which has lots of raunchy passages (but won't get one because Émilie is onto him). So I can see Fritz wanting to prove to his favourite writer and soon to be life long addiction that he can be witty about sex, too. That, and maybe make him jealous. :)
Re: Toppings of all types, continued
Date: 2020-01-18 02:14 pm (UTC)Worse, he's the one who decided Mimi was male because Fritz uses "il" to refer to "le singe", which I raised an eyebrow at but dutifully copied because, "Maybe he knows something I don't know." I should have known better.
I will also point out that his bio of Fritz contains a lot of verse in French and English, and just from my comparisons of the two, he does extreeeemely loose translations of verse, in an effort to make the rhymes work in English. I think even one of his Amazon reviews complains about this.
So McDonogh's English version will have to do, I suppose.
Oh, the royal librarian can do better than that. :D I give you the French original (p. 369) from the Trier site (which has more than Preuss if you're willing to dig around).
Leaving aside that Fritz in the poem gives Algarotti a female partner - Chloris is straight from the Augustan poets as a name of a mistress - as simply using a literary trope
Blanning, who as the material you found is pretty good about letting Fritz be gay but not GAY GAY GAY, decides that this poem is not evidence for Fritz/Algarotti, because...wait for it...
"There is nothing in the poem to suggest that Frederick himself was Algarotti's partner. On the contrary, the passage just quoted is preceded by lines identifying the lover as the nymph 'Chloris'."
And that's a level of bizarreness on par with Voltaire as Austrian agent. My first reaction was, "Have you heard of tropes? Do you know what a trope is? Have you read literature like ever?"
Furthermore, from a logical perspective, I don't believe in nymphs. Do you believe in nymphs, Blanning? If she's obviously fictional--the alternative to this being at least partly a work of imagination is that Fritz witnessed Algarotti's orgasm with a nymph named Chloris--and we know that Algarotti was bi (Blanning even says he was bi, in this very discussion), why the fuck couldn't Algarotti and Fritz have had sex, in a century when you had to have at least (im)plausible deniability and couldn't go around announcing, "Actually, this poem describes me and Algarotti last night."
Anyway, Blanning then adduces less implausible counterevidence to the idea that Fritz and Algarotti were getting it on: "In one letter at least, Frederick appeared to state explicitly that their relationship was not physical. On 29 November 1740 he wrote that he felt as much pleasure at seeing Algarotti again after a long absence as did Medoro when reunited with his beloved Angelica, 'the difference being that it is my intellect alone that participates in this pleasure, and that it seeks only to woo yours to warm itself with the fire of your sparkling genius.'"
And I agree they probably weren't having an active sexual relationship (if nothing else, there's evidence Algarotti was suffering from or believed by more than Fritz to be suffering from STDs in 1739/1740--much more evidence than there is for Marwitz), but there's nothing to say they had never tried it. (As you know, my headcanon is "once or twice before Fritz decided sexual activity wasn't worth the trouble." That said, I will free admit it's entirely likely they never did.)
otherwise that's taking a considerable liberty with someone whom you want to stay with you at your court, even taking different concepts of privacy and royal prerogative in the 18th century into account.
Interesting argument. We know that Fritz wrote a fairly vicious lengthy poem called the Palladion (it's been translated into German and I can look for the translation if you want), featuring his librarian Darget* getting sexually assaulted by Jesuit priests and finally deciding to go with it and embrace male/male sex. Apparently it was so raunchy that Fritz only had a few copies distributed, but "the secret could not be kept, especially not after Voltaire had been given a copy on his arrival in 1750." See, Fritz needed his own Émilie!
* The one Blanning thinks the French sent as ambassador despite being a mere secretary because the French were hoping Fritz's homosexual attraction to Darget could be used to their advantage, and to their disappointment found "Fritz knew how to keep sex and politics separate."
Per Blanning, Darget got offended (oh, Fritz, what were you thinking?), and they never did repair their relationship.* Which Blanning thinks was "very likely" explicitly homosexual in the second half of the 1740s (but provides nothing I consider stronger evidence than the evidence for Fritz/Algarotti).
* As described by Blanning, Fritz's efforts at reconciliation are as emotionally mature as his and his father's condolence letters, i.e., "But think of meeeee!"
I, personally, don't think Fritz was so sensitive to other people's feelings that he couldn't have written about their orgasms without having participated in any? The stronger evidence is that Algarotti *didn't* get offended, but then the poem is actually quite nice to Algarotti, especially compared to the Palladion (have only seen excerpts and summaries, and "oof" just from what I've seen), and it's possible Algarotti the "Everyone knows I get around" was cool with it.
That, and maybe make him jealous. :)
The thought had occurred to me. :D
Re: Toppings of all types, continued
Date: 2020-01-18 03:32 pm (UTC)That does indeed not speak of his translator skills. Especially since I've never met a male Mimi, and the Fredersdorf letters, which provide a definite gender identification, are so short that he could have easily looked them up to countercheck. (BTW, "Mimi Fighting off Pandurs singlehandedly" should still be a thing).
Palladion: I've seen quotes, too. Presumably a good example of the kind of poems that were in the notebook Voltaire had with him in Frankfurt.
I, personally, don't think Fritz was so sensitive to other people's feelings that he couldn't have written about their orgasms without having participated in any?
Not in general, perhaps, but I think there's a difference in situation. Darget is a librarian showing up after Fritz has already been all-powerful King a couple of years. He's a cultured man, but not a Europe-wide famous intellectual whom everyone wants to have (in one way or another). The Algarotti poem is written when Fritz has only just made it to the throne and Algarotti is at the height of his popularity and success. Algarotti, from Fritz' pov, has a lot of alternatives to settling down in Prussia. Also, he's enchanted by him. Whereas Darget becoming Royal Librarian of Frederick the already Great is sort of the top position to achieve for him at that point?
Anyway, yes, the poem is very complimentary about Algarotti, and that, too, makes a difference. And if it is meant to tantalize Voltaire a bit, hey, Fritz is suposed to be Alcibiades, isn't he?
Incidentally: Hans Pleschinski in his editorial comment on Fritz/Voltaire observes that in his opinion, while Fritz' poetry is nothing to write home about, his prose style (in the letters) really is elegant and witty and totally worth of him getting listed as a great French writing author of the 18th century. I'm not qualified to judge, with my lame school girl French, but the translations of the poetry I've seen so far really do not impress.
(There's a collection of German translated Fritz poetry at Gutenberg. The most groanworthy is a four liner that goes like this:
Recently an envoy of the Turks
Presented the Empress* with a Sword
And the Emperor with some nice jewelry.
Doesn't that say it all, hah hah.
*MT can be "the Empress" in poetry, it seems.)
See, Fritz needed his own Émilie!
Well, he had Fredersdorf, but clearly "do not give your raunchy political poetry to your problematic fave!" was the kind of thing that would have risked an argument, so...
(BTW: if Fritz and Heinrich ever got their own "who is worst" argument going, on the lines of "who has the most terrible taste in problematic faves!", Fritz would of course point out that Heinrich's guys had a tendency of all being expensive cheats, but Heinrich could counter that having to sell paintings to Catherine to bail a rowdy boytoy out was still better than having to send soldiers after Europe's most famous intellectual just to recover some manuscript he shouldn't ever have gotten his hands on in the first place.)
(I also want to know whether when Heinrich reccommended Lady Mary's Letter from Turkey to him as a great book to read it Fritz ever remembered that this was the same Lady Mary who'd had her sights set on Algarotti, but then I doubt him and Algarotti ever talked about her.)
Re: Toppings of all types, continued
Date: 2020-01-18 10:52 pm (UTC)Same, but I was way too willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and go, "Maybe in the 18th century it could be?? My knowledge is not broad enough to rule this out?"
(BTW, "Mimi Fighting off Pandurs singlehandedly" should still be a thing).
And it can be, if we play our crackfic cards right! I kind of want her to be a capuchin, but I don't know if it's plausible that he would have a New World monkey.
Do we know anything about what species of monkeys were popular in the 18th century? I'm no expert, but I know a few things about primatology, and it's a casual interest of mine.
and the Fredersdorf letters, which provide a definite gender identification, are so short that he could have easily looked them up to countercheck.
True, but to be fair, I'm not sure it would have occurred to me to countercheck there. What would have occurred to me, and did occur to me, was that "il" referred to "le singe", not to "Mimi", and without someone specifically telling me it was a he, I would have used "it" if my text was ambiguous. Or, you know, "she", because of the name.
Anyway, MacDonogh has his strengths, but attention to detail is not one.
Darget is a librarian showing up after Fritz has already been all-powerful King a couple of years.
Very true. Those first five years from "wet behind the ears" to "Frederick the Great" made a lot of difference.
And if it is meant to tantalize Voltaire a bit, hey, Fritz is suposed to be Alcibiades, isn't he?
Laughed out loud.
the translations of the poetry I've seen so far really do not impress.
I don't think I've seen anyone, Fritz included, say he was a great poet.
his prose style (in the letters) really is elegant and witty and totally worth of him getting listed as a great French writing author of the 18th century.
Well, that's good to know! I am less qualified to judge than you, so will defer to the opinions of those more knowledgeable.
Well, he had Fredersdorf, but clearly "do not give your raunchy political poetry to your problematic fave!" was the kind of thing that would have risked an argument, so...
I was thinking exactly this! Catt tried talking him out of it on the grounds of "Didn't you JUST SAY he was the literal worst?" and it didn't work. Émilie donned the pants and put it under lock and key, but that's not the kind of thing you could do with Fritz. I don't see Fredersdorf touching this one with a ten-foot-pole. Boss says to get the book back, get it back. The end.
still better than having to send soldiers after Europe's most famous intellectual just to recover some manuscript he shouldn't ever have gotten his hands on in the first place.
To which Fritz would retort "One, that situation got out of hand through no fault of my own, two, Voltaire is a GOD among men and not subject to the same standards as mere mortals. He is the literal worst, of course. Nothing that happened to him in Frankfurt was either by my orders nor nearly as bad as he said. OMG WHAT'S THIS? A letter!! Should I send him my latest incriminating poem? I should! *sparkly hearts*"
And Fredersdorf would take Heinrich aside for a quiet word that this is a lost cause.
but then I doubt him and Algarotti ever talked about her
Normally I would say no, but since Fritz was one of the most vocal early proponents of inoculation, it's just possible they did.
Re: Toppings of all types, continued
Date: 2020-01-19 02:38 pm (UTC)"wet behind the ears"
This reminds me: it won't surprise you that one of the 27 honored on the Obelisk is Kurt Christoph von Schwerin.
"One, that situation got out of hand through no fault of my own, two, Voltaire is a GOD among men and not subject to the same standards as mere mortals. He is the literal worst, of course. Nothing that happened to him in Frankfurt was either by my orders nor nearly as bad as he said. OMG WHAT'S THIS? A letter!! Should I send him my latest incriminating poem? I should! *sparkly hearts*"
LOL forever, but so true. All kidding aside, though, while contemporaries - and Voltaire himself - were most scandalized/upset by the Frankfurt arrest, something that strikes my 21st century self as worse is what happened earlier and triggered Voltaire's departure, i.e. the book burning. Granted, I'm a German who associates book burnings with the worst, but even leaving anything after the 18th century aside, it's something, as a gesture, that's worse than just forbidding the pamphlet. It has that autodafé association - and precisely because theirs was a falling in love with each other's minds, burning the product of Voltaire's mind, even if it's just a satiric pamphlet motivated by pure pettiness, is an incredible betrayal on that level.
Re: Toppings of all types, continued
From:Re: Toppings of all types, continued
From:The Very Secret Travel Correspondance of Prince August Wilhelm
Date: 2020-01-17 07:47 pm (UTC)Dear Heinrich – Fritz has decided we’ll cross the border and go to France incognito. Awesome! I wanted to be called Eugene S. Oyen, after the greatest hero, of course, but Fritz said that was too obvious. Pfff. He’s just sulking because Wilhelmine talked him out of calling himself „Louis Legrand“. Anyway, he’s decided Algarotti gets to choose our names, since he has experience with border crossing.
Dear Heinrich – and we’re off to France! More swan talk. I don’t get it. I mean, I get now that’s some code name for Algarotti, but anyone less swan like I can’t imagine. His neck’s not long, and he doesn’t hiss, either. (Last time I fed some of the swans we have in the Havel with bread crumbs, they hissed at me like you wouldn’t believe. Don’t go near them, Henri. They totally bite.) Instead, he’s rolling his rrrs all the time, like in „Oh, Prrrrrrrrrincipe!“ (What Wilhelmine’s lute has got to do with anything, I don’t know, either.)
Dear Heinrich – now we’re talking! We’re all criminals now, which is cool. Fritz had forged our pass ports, and we all made really harmless faces when border crossing, though at one point I thought Algarotti looked like he was about to let a fart or something. Which would be weird because he’s the cultured type, but he had that kind of face like you do when you’re holding your breath or want to piss. Fritz, who was sitting right next to him, must have tried to signal him to calm down, at least I think that’s what he was doing with his hand under Algarotti’s cloak.
Dear Heinrich – you’ll never guess what happened! Don’t be surprised at the paper with the Strassbourg garnison stamp. We were arrested! Okay, so maybe we shouldn’t have hung out with the soldiers, but I thought it could be fun to talk to someone other than Algarotti, with his weird „oh, prrrrrrrincipe“ exclamations. (I have told him that it’s „King“ now, if he wants to address Fritz. Also „your majesty“. Fritz glared at me.) Anyway, we met some guys from the local garnison who invited us into a tavern. They were smoking and drinking beer and I thought of Dad and got tears in my eyes. So did Fritz. At least I think he did. He also looked a bit green in the face. And that’s when this really tall guy stood up and said „Wow, it’s Crown Prince – I mean, King Friedrich!“ Yes, we were totally busted by a Potsdam Giant. Fritz says he wanted to dismantle that regiment anyway. He’s kind of depressed. I told him not to worry, we wouldn’t stay in prison long, and suggest he should write to Wilhelmine so she could send money to bribe the local commander and bail us out. He said no way. So I guess we’ll do a prison break next. Way cool!
Dear Heinrich – no daring escape, sadly, we got released the normal way the next morning, though Fritz had to promise not to do it again. He muttered something, but if you ask me it sounded more like „third time’s the charm“ and also something about going east instead of west next. So no Paris, I guess. Fritz says he wants to go to Cleves now and kick some butt, which also sounds good. I mean, I don’t know how exactly he plans to do that there, given he’s still looking green, and now also sweaty, but if there’s one thing I’ve learned about Big Bro already: being with him is never boring! Can’t wait what happens next.
Dear Heinrich – arrived at Cleves. Fritz is starting to look really sick, though, which worries me a bit and can’t help with the planned butt-kicking. Algarotti made a mysterious face and says there’s a surprise waiting that’ll cheer Fritz up. I thought maybe he meant some naked girls, like they have in Dresden – Dad always ranted about that, so I know it’s true! - , but nooooo, it was some old French guy who’s got to be at least 40. The guy rushed to Fritz who was lying down because of his fever and took his pulse, so I thought he might be a doctor. Then he opened his mouth, and it was all „My Alcibiades, it is I, your Socrates!“, and seriously, I thought that it would be really weird to first get recognized in France and then get mistaken for someone else in our own territory! But then he and Fritz started to kiss each other’s hands. Also once or twice their own, since they did it so often and kept talking in between and got confused. P.S. Algarotti told me the French guy was Voltaire. I said: „I thought his name was Socrates.“ Then Algarotti said „You poor boy. Your father really did not want you to learn anything about the Greeks, did he?“
Re: The Very Secret Travel Correspondance of Prince August Wilhelm
Date: 2020-01-17 08:20 pm (UTC)if there's one thing I've learned about Big Bro already: being with him is never boring!
Truer words--!
Oh, and she’s got a hot lady-in-waiting, one of the Marwitz girls. I hit on her, and then our brother-in-law glared at me like you wouldnl’t believe.
Oh noooo! Now female Marwitz is starting a family collection!
But then he and Fritz started to kiss each other’s hands. Also once or twice their own, since they did it so often and kept talking in between and got confused.
HAHAHAHAAAA Voltaire, you left this part out!
Fritz is starting to look really sick, though, which worries me a bit and can’t help with the planned butt-kicking.
No, it'll help. The worse he feels, the worse his mood, and the more butt gets kicked. :P Dad FW was the same way, with less invasions and more chasing his kids in a wheelchair wielding his cane.
Swan Algarotti, omggg. Poor AW.
This was great, thank you.
Re: The Very Secret Travel Correspondance of Prince August Wilhelm
Date: 2020-01-18 04:16 am (UTC)why I love Lehndorff so much, although you are making a good case that he knows more than he lets on)oh man this was just so hilarious, I'm going to try really hard not to just quote every line. the hot lady-in-waiting, omg THE MARWITZ STRIKES AGAIN
We’re all criminals now, which is cool.
HEE
at least I think that’s what he was doing with his hand under Algarotti’s cloak.
lololololol omg
Yes, we were totally busted by a Potsdam Giant.
OF COURSE YOU WERE. And also lol to AW's suggestion to write to Wilhelmine, awwwww.
I thought maybe he meant some naked girls, like they have in Dresden
HAHAHAHAHA
Then he opened his mouth, and it was all „My Alcibiades, it is I, your Socrates!“, and seriously, I thought that it would be really weird to first get recognized in France and then get mistaken for someone else in our own territory!
I laughed so hard at this!
Also once or twice their own, since they did it so often and kept talking in between and got confused.
And this! HEEEEEEE.
<33333333 this was amazing!
(uh.... okay, I have to say I didn't get the swan thing or the Principe thing either, is this from Algarotti's letters?)
Re: The Very Secret Travel Correspondance of Prince August Wilhelm
Date: 2020-01-18 04:38 am (UTC)I was taking "Principe" as Italian Algarotti making an allusion to the Anti-Machiavel, which Fritz originally wanted Algarotti to handle the publication of (before switching to Voltaire, who, at the time of this fic, is only one month away from publishing it, so it's fresh on everyone's minds), but I admit I'm not 100% sure on this one either. Will let our wonderful author clarify. :)
Re: The Very Secret Travel Correspondance of Prince August Wilhelm
Date: 2020-01-18 04:54 am (UTC)My dear swan from Padua, I received your letters with great pleasure; but I admit that I still have ten times more eagerness to see you yourself
My dear swan, you were born, I believe, to see the arrival of great events in your days.
My dear swan from Padua, Voltaire arrived sparkling with new beauties
Oh most fickle and lightest swan in the world!
(The last one is from when Algarotti has hightailed it out of Prussia for the first time because he‘s tired of waiting around for Fritz to conquer Silesia and instead becomes August III.‘s art collector in Dresden. While also designing porcellain figurines for MT‘s table decoration at least once, as I‘ve discovered through the dissertation about him, and hoping she‘ll ask him for more. The best thing is that the writer of the dissertation doesn‘t seem to get the implication, as it‘s all in one line and a footnote about how Esterhazy (one of the top Hungarian nobles) ordered the figurines for „the Queen of Hungary and Bohemia“, and Algarotti hopes there will be more from „the Queen of Hungary and Bohemia“. Whom said author doesn‘t equate with the woman mentioned a few pages earlier as „in 1740, Maria Theresia followed her father“ etc.).
„Principe“ - Mildred got it!
Re: The Very Secret Travel Correspondance of Prince August Wilhelm
Date: 2020-01-18 05:07 am (UTC)Probably wise. :)
The best thing is that the writer of the dissertation doesn‘t seem to get the implication
I am delighted that you caught this and pointed it out, because I had missed it.
it's fresh on everyone's minds
Except AW's, naturally!
Re: Toppings of all types, continued
Date: 2020-01-19 11:53 pm (UTC)Thought I would add, for those who haven't been to Sanssouci (probably just
And Sanssouci was his summer residence, so when winter approaches, he has to leave.
Re: Toppings of all types, continued
Date: 2020-01-16 05:17 am (UTC)...This is now my headcanon too. :D