Frederick the Great discussion post 9
Jan. 13th, 2020 09:09 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahn...I leave you guys alone for one weekend and it's time for a new Fritz post, lol!
I'm gonna reply to the previous post comments but I guess new letter-reading, etc. should go in this one :)
Frederick the Great links
I'm gonna reply to the previous post comments but I guess new letter-reading, etc. should go in this one :)
Frederick the Great links
Re: Toppings of all types, continued
Date: 2020-01-18 08:19 am (UTC)Also: History Today features an English translation by McDonogh whom you, Mildred, have repeatedly described to me as an unreliable biographer who managed to confuse EC the wife of Fritz with EC the wife of FW2, as well as Henricus Minor with Henricus Major, which does not exactly inspire confidence in his French-translating abilities. So I tried to track down the Zeit article which the History Today article says reported the rediscovery of the manuscript and contained the entire poem (in German). I found the article, but not the translated poem. And I can guess why: Copyright! (Of the German translation.) Further googling only led me to an indignant article from a gay magazine referencing the poem in a rant about how Blanning's Fritz biography, which was published in German last year, wasn't gay enough (they grudgingly acknowledge Banning has no doubt of Fritz' general gayness, but Banning is accused of "heterosexualizing" Fritz by accepting the tale of the Dresden/Orzelska sex instead of rejecting it as clearly deriving from Wilhelmine's memoirs and thus being questionable since Wihelmine wasn't along in Dresden and just goes by word of mouth afterwards; to which I say, guys, did none of you experiment in their teenage days? Trying out het sex when young does not make him less gay!).
So McDonogh's English version will have to do, I suppose. Anyway. Leaving aside that Fritz in the poem gives Algarotti a female partner - Chloris is straight from the Augustan poets as a name of a mistress - as simply using a literary trope, he's clearly having fun describing Algarotti in the throws of orgasm. Not that I don't trust him to have an active imagination, but I don't think he'd do that if he hadn't at least once watched the goods delivered, so to speak, because otherwise that's taking a considerable liberty with someone whom you want to stay with you at your court, even taking different concepts of privacy and royal prerogative in the 18th century into account.
Sending it to Voltaire: young Voltaire made his name with a pamphlet claiming the Prince Regent Philippe d'Orleans - son of Liselotte and the very gay Monsieur of the same name, uncle to Franz Stephan - did it with his daughter, and of course at the time Fritz is sending the poem he absolutely wants to have a copy of the Pucelle which has lots of raunchy passages (but won't get one because Émilie is onto him). So I can see Fritz wanting to prove to his favourite writer and soon to be life long addiction that he can be witty about sex, too. That, and maybe make him jealous. :)
Re: Toppings of all types, continued
Date: 2020-01-18 02:14 pm (UTC)Worse, he's the one who decided Mimi was male because Fritz uses "il" to refer to "le singe", which I raised an eyebrow at but dutifully copied because, "Maybe he knows something I don't know." I should have known better.
I will also point out that his bio of Fritz contains a lot of verse in French and English, and just from my comparisons of the two, he does extreeeemely loose translations of verse, in an effort to make the rhymes work in English. I think even one of his Amazon reviews complains about this.
So McDonogh's English version will have to do, I suppose.
Oh, the royal librarian can do better than that. :D I give you the French original (p. 369) from the Trier site (which has more than Preuss if you're willing to dig around).
Leaving aside that Fritz in the poem gives Algarotti a female partner - Chloris is straight from the Augustan poets as a name of a mistress - as simply using a literary trope
Blanning, who as the material you found is pretty good about letting Fritz be gay but not GAY GAY GAY, decides that this poem is not evidence for Fritz/Algarotti, because...wait for it...
"There is nothing in the poem to suggest that Frederick himself was Algarotti's partner. On the contrary, the passage just quoted is preceded by lines identifying the lover as the nymph 'Chloris'."
And that's a level of bizarreness on par with Voltaire as Austrian agent. My first reaction was, "Have you heard of tropes? Do you know what a trope is? Have you read literature like ever?"
Furthermore, from a logical perspective, I don't believe in nymphs. Do you believe in nymphs, Blanning? If she's obviously fictional--the alternative to this being at least partly a work of imagination is that Fritz witnessed Algarotti's orgasm with a nymph named Chloris--and we know that Algarotti was bi (Blanning even says he was bi, in this very discussion), why the fuck couldn't Algarotti and Fritz have had sex, in a century when you had to have at least (im)plausible deniability and couldn't go around announcing, "Actually, this poem describes me and Algarotti last night."
Anyway, Blanning then adduces less implausible counterevidence to the idea that Fritz and Algarotti were getting it on: "In one letter at least, Frederick appeared to state explicitly that their relationship was not physical. On 29 November 1740 he wrote that he felt as much pleasure at seeing Algarotti again after a long absence as did Medoro when reunited with his beloved Angelica, 'the difference being that it is my intellect alone that participates in this pleasure, and that it seeks only to woo yours to warm itself with the fire of your sparkling genius.'"
And I agree they probably weren't having an active sexual relationship (if nothing else, there's evidence Algarotti was suffering from or believed by more than Fritz to be suffering from STDs in 1739/1740--much more evidence than there is for Marwitz), but there's nothing to say they had never tried it. (As you know, my headcanon is "once or twice before Fritz decided sexual activity wasn't worth the trouble." That said, I will free admit it's entirely likely they never did.)
otherwise that's taking a considerable liberty with someone whom you want to stay with you at your court, even taking different concepts of privacy and royal prerogative in the 18th century into account.
Interesting argument. We know that Fritz wrote a fairly vicious lengthy poem called the Palladion (it's been translated into German and I can look for the translation if you want), featuring his librarian Darget* getting sexually assaulted by Jesuit priests and finally deciding to go with it and embrace male/male sex. Apparently it was so raunchy that Fritz only had a few copies distributed, but "the secret could not be kept, especially not after Voltaire had been given a copy on his arrival in 1750." See, Fritz needed his own Émilie!
* The one Blanning thinks the French sent as ambassador despite being a mere secretary because the French were hoping Fritz's homosexual attraction to Darget could be used to their advantage, and to their disappointment found "Fritz knew how to keep sex and politics separate."
Per Blanning, Darget got offended (oh, Fritz, what were you thinking?), and they never did repair their relationship.* Which Blanning thinks was "very likely" explicitly homosexual in the second half of the 1740s (but provides nothing I consider stronger evidence than the evidence for Fritz/Algarotti).
* As described by Blanning, Fritz's efforts at reconciliation are as emotionally mature as his and his father's condolence letters, i.e., "But think of meeeee!"
I, personally, don't think Fritz was so sensitive to other people's feelings that he couldn't have written about their orgasms without having participated in any? The stronger evidence is that Algarotti *didn't* get offended, but then the poem is actually quite nice to Algarotti, especially compared to the Palladion (have only seen excerpts and summaries, and "oof" just from what I've seen), and it's possible Algarotti the "Everyone knows I get around" was cool with it.
That, and maybe make him jealous. :)
The thought had occurred to me. :D
Re: Toppings of all types, continued
Date: 2020-01-18 03:32 pm (UTC)That does indeed not speak of his translator skills. Especially since I've never met a male Mimi, and the Fredersdorf letters, which provide a definite gender identification, are so short that he could have easily looked them up to countercheck. (BTW, "Mimi Fighting off Pandurs singlehandedly" should still be a thing).
Palladion: I've seen quotes, too. Presumably a good example of the kind of poems that were in the notebook Voltaire had with him in Frankfurt.
I, personally, don't think Fritz was so sensitive to other people's feelings that he couldn't have written about their orgasms without having participated in any?
Not in general, perhaps, but I think there's a difference in situation. Darget is a librarian showing up after Fritz has already been all-powerful King a couple of years. He's a cultured man, but not a Europe-wide famous intellectual whom everyone wants to have (in one way or another). The Algarotti poem is written when Fritz has only just made it to the throne and Algarotti is at the height of his popularity and success. Algarotti, from Fritz' pov, has a lot of alternatives to settling down in Prussia. Also, he's enchanted by him. Whereas Darget becoming Royal Librarian of Frederick the already Great is sort of the top position to achieve for him at that point?
Anyway, yes, the poem is very complimentary about Algarotti, and that, too, makes a difference. And if it is meant to tantalize Voltaire a bit, hey, Fritz is suposed to be Alcibiades, isn't he?
Incidentally: Hans Pleschinski in his editorial comment on Fritz/Voltaire observes that in his opinion, while Fritz' poetry is nothing to write home about, his prose style (in the letters) really is elegant and witty and totally worth of him getting listed as a great French writing author of the 18th century. I'm not qualified to judge, with my lame school girl French, but the translations of the poetry I've seen so far really do not impress.
(There's a collection of German translated Fritz poetry at Gutenberg. The most groanworthy is a four liner that goes like this:
Recently an envoy of the Turks
Presented the Empress* with a Sword
And the Emperor with some nice jewelry.
Doesn't that say it all, hah hah.
*MT can be "the Empress" in poetry, it seems.)
See, Fritz needed his own Émilie!
Well, he had Fredersdorf, but clearly "do not give your raunchy political poetry to your problematic fave!" was the kind of thing that would have risked an argument, so...
(BTW: if Fritz and Heinrich ever got their own "who is worst" argument going, on the lines of "who has the most terrible taste in problematic faves!", Fritz would of course point out that Heinrich's guys had a tendency of all being expensive cheats, but Heinrich could counter that having to sell paintings to Catherine to bail a rowdy boytoy out was still better than having to send soldiers after Europe's most famous intellectual just to recover some manuscript he shouldn't ever have gotten his hands on in the first place.)
(I also want to know whether when Heinrich reccommended Lady Mary's Letter from Turkey to him as a great book to read it Fritz ever remembered that this was the same Lady Mary who'd had her sights set on Algarotti, but then I doubt him and Algarotti ever talked about her.)
Re: Toppings of all types, continued
Date: 2020-01-18 10:52 pm (UTC)Same, but I was way too willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and go, "Maybe in the 18th century it could be?? My knowledge is not broad enough to rule this out?"
(BTW, "Mimi Fighting off Pandurs singlehandedly" should still be a thing).
And it can be, if we play our crackfic cards right! I kind of want her to be a capuchin, but I don't know if it's plausible that he would have a New World monkey.
Do we know anything about what species of monkeys were popular in the 18th century? I'm no expert, but I know a few things about primatology, and it's a casual interest of mine.
and the Fredersdorf letters, which provide a definite gender identification, are so short that he could have easily looked them up to countercheck.
True, but to be fair, I'm not sure it would have occurred to me to countercheck there. What would have occurred to me, and did occur to me, was that "il" referred to "le singe", not to "Mimi", and without someone specifically telling me it was a he, I would have used "it" if my text was ambiguous. Or, you know, "she", because of the name.
Anyway, MacDonogh has his strengths, but attention to detail is not one.
Darget is a librarian showing up after Fritz has already been all-powerful King a couple of years.
Very true. Those first five years from "wet behind the ears" to "Frederick the Great" made a lot of difference.
And if it is meant to tantalize Voltaire a bit, hey, Fritz is suposed to be Alcibiades, isn't he?
Laughed out loud.
the translations of the poetry I've seen so far really do not impress.
I don't think I've seen anyone, Fritz included, say he was a great poet.
his prose style (in the letters) really is elegant and witty and totally worth of him getting listed as a great French writing author of the 18th century.
Well, that's good to know! I am less qualified to judge than you, so will defer to the opinions of those more knowledgeable.
Well, he had Fredersdorf, but clearly "do not give your raunchy political poetry to your problematic fave!" was the kind of thing that would have risked an argument, so...
I was thinking exactly this! Catt tried talking him out of it on the grounds of "Didn't you JUST SAY he was the literal worst?" and it didn't work. Émilie donned the pants and put it under lock and key, but that's not the kind of thing you could do with Fritz. I don't see Fredersdorf touching this one with a ten-foot-pole. Boss says to get the book back, get it back. The end.
still better than having to send soldiers after Europe's most famous intellectual just to recover some manuscript he shouldn't ever have gotten his hands on in the first place.
To which Fritz would retort "One, that situation got out of hand through no fault of my own, two, Voltaire is a GOD among men and not subject to the same standards as mere mortals. He is the literal worst, of course. Nothing that happened to him in Frankfurt was either by my orders nor nearly as bad as he said. OMG WHAT'S THIS? A letter!! Should I send him my latest incriminating poem? I should! *sparkly hearts*"
And Fredersdorf would take Heinrich aside for a quiet word that this is a lost cause.
but then I doubt him and Algarotti ever talked about her
Normally I would say no, but since Fritz was one of the most vocal early proponents of inoculation, it's just possible they did.
Re: Toppings of all types, continued
Date: 2020-01-19 02:38 pm (UTC)"wet behind the ears"
This reminds me: it won't surprise you that one of the 27 honored on the Obelisk is Kurt Christoph von Schwerin.
"One, that situation got out of hand through no fault of my own, two, Voltaire is a GOD among men and not subject to the same standards as mere mortals. He is the literal worst, of course. Nothing that happened to him in Frankfurt was either by my orders nor nearly as bad as he said. OMG WHAT'S THIS? A letter!! Should I send him my latest incriminating poem? I should! *sparkly hearts*"
LOL forever, but so true. All kidding aside, though, while contemporaries - and Voltaire himself - were most scandalized/upset by the Frankfurt arrest, something that strikes my 21st century self as worse is what happened earlier and triggered Voltaire's departure, i.e. the book burning. Granted, I'm a German who associates book burnings with the worst, but even leaving anything after the 18th century aside, it's something, as a gesture, that's worse than just forbidding the pamphlet. It has that autodafé association - and precisely because theirs was a falling in love with each other's minds, burning the product of Voltaire's mind, even if it's just a satiric pamphlet motivated by pure pettiness, is an incredible betrayal on that level.
Re: Toppings of all types, continued
Date: 2020-01-19 02:50 pm (UTC)I agree!
This reminds me: it won't surprise you that one of the 27 honored on the Obelisk is Kurt Christoph von Schwerin.
Nope. For those of you just joining/in need of a refresher, this is the experienced general (field marshal) who talked Fritz into leaving his first battlefield (Mollwitz), on the grounds that the Prussians were losing and it would be even worse if Fritz were captured. And then in addition to the humiliation of abandoning his troops to save his own skin, Fritz had to deal with the embarrassment of Schwerin turning things around and winning the battle without him.
"NEVER AGAIN," Fritz swore, and he never quite forgave Schwerin for either part, the talking him into leaving or the winning without him.
So Schwerin is definitely going to be high on Heinrich's list of "underappreciated/screwed over by a dramatically overestimated Fritz who hogs all the glory for himself."
Book burning: agree, and I feel like I've read somewhere, I don't remember where or if it was reliable, that Fritz later regretted his impulsive action. (Fritz often regretted the tone but not the content of what he'd said.)
Re: Toppings of all types, continued
Date: 2020-02-04 12:08 am (UTC)Found it: Catt, memoirs, v.1, p. 29. I don't see it in the account of this episode in the diary, although it may be elsewhere, or Catt may be writing down something he remembered in the memoirs, or Catt may be making things up, either because he believed Fritz was sorry or thought that he should be.
Only slightly less of a betrayal than book-burning: book falsification. Curse you, Catt!