cahn | Yuletide tags are out: Frederician version

Come join us in this crazy Frederick the Great fandom and learn more about all these crazy associated people, like the star-crossed and heartbreaking romance between Maria Theresia's daughter Maria Christina and her daughter-in-law Isabella, wow.

OK, so, there are FOURTEEN characters nominated:
Anna Karolina Orzelska (Frederician RPF)
Elisabeth Christine von Preußen | Elisabeth Christine Queen of Prussia (Frederician RPF)
Francesco Algarotti (Frederician RPF)
François-Marie Arouet | Voltaire (Frederician RPF)
Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great (Frederician RPF)
Hans Hermann Von Katte (Frederician RPF)
Joseph II Holy Roman Emperor (Frederician RPF)
Maria Theresia | Maria Theresa of Austria (Frederician RPF)
Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf (Frederician RPF)
Peter Karl Christoph von Keith (Frederician RPF)
Sophia Dorothea of Hanover (Frederician RPF)
Stanisław August Poniatowski (Frederician RPF)
Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia (1709-1758) (Frederician RPF)
Yekatarina II Alekseyevna | Catherine the Great of Russia (Frederician RPF)

This means some fourth person kindly nominated Algarotti and -- I think? -- Stanislaw August Poniatowski! YAY! Thank you fourth person! Come be our friend! :D Yuletide is so great!

I am definitely requesting Maria Theresia, Wilhelmine, and Fritz (Put them in a room together. Shake. How big is the explosion?), and thinking about Elisabeth Christine, but maybe not this year.

I am also declaring this post another Frederician post, as the last one was getting out of hand. I think I'll still use that one as the overall index to these, though, to keep all the links in one place.

(seriously, every time I think the wild stories are done there is ANOTHER one)

Page 1 of 16 << [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] >>

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Yaaay all around! I have posted a comment asking if Poniatowski was actually intended for this fandom. It's not impossible, especially if someone wants political fic, but it's worth querying. Algarotti, though... <33 ILU, whoever you are, nominator!

Soooo...you guys, something awesome happened today (besides the opening of the tag set). Remember my 2 physical books I was opening to a random page to get random facts on? One of them is on Kindle but too expensive for my current budget. Then this happened! Aka Rachel bought me the book for my birthday! So now I can read it properly and share trivia.

(seriously, every time I think the wild stories are done there is ANOTHER one)

I know, right?! It also helps that

selenak has a larger cast of characters as well!

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Am so stoked about Algarotti's nomination that I went looking for more source material on him in hopes of inspiration for treat-writing. I've found that there's very little by way of material about his life, but there is one fascinating dissertation that's available online (!!) and which I am now reading. Table of contents suggests his relationship with Fritz was as volatile as Fritz's biographers claimed (without, of course, supplying much evidence--am hoping for the evidence here).

*having lots of fun*

Also, canon-divergent AUs for the win: I'm not sure I'm ever going to finish it, and it's certainly not intended for Yuletide, but it seems to be coming along, so it's not impossible it'll exist someday...I'm working on a "Five Ways Frederick the Great and Katte Cheated Fate" fic aka "Katte Lives Five Times Because Katte Can Never Live Enough Times." Except of course each of the 5 AUs wants to be about 3,000 words, because I'm me, so...anyway, I've got very rough drafts for 4 of the 5 AUs now and am waiting for inspiration on the 5th. I will probably ramble at you about them here, if you want to hear more. :D

Edited Date: 2019-10-22 04:56 am (UTC)

From:

selenak

*okay, transferring my last replies to here, where they're both more readable and more accessible*

You're very welcome. Re: Franzl, I would like to know how the original conversation went, pre- and post invading:

MT: So, you've met him. What can we expect?
FS: He's completely different from his fright of a father, very cultured, loves the arts, maybe a bit sharp-tongued, but he's funny, and he told me he's planning on writing a book on how a king as to rule morally and not wage wars other than defensive ones! Just the pal to have among the German princes!

Silesia: *gets invaded*

MT: ....
FS: Or not? For now, at least.

Sex policing: yeah, that's one one thing even contemporary admirers found hard to stomach, let alone later biographers. Though Fritz actually thought it to be in her favour, since this is what he meant when he said "The Queen despises whores" (whereas most other women are whores for him, not that he didn't also call MT one when it suited him). Mind you, it gets even more complicated than that in the famous young Marie Antoinette versus Dubarry case, which you may have heard about but which has a lesser known post script, so I shall recount it here:

Teenage MA arrives at Versailles, marries young teenage Louis, while his grandfather, Louis XV., is still ruling, with the last of his famous mistresses, the Countess of Dubarry, at his side. MA and young Louis (see earlier entry about Joseph, improvised sex counsellor) don't have sex. Old Louis as per usual does, a lot. So does Madame Dubarry. Who is hated by her lover's adult and unmarried daughters, nicknamed "the aunts". (No, really, centuries pre Margaret Atwood.)

Aunts *scheme*: Surely the daughter of MT will not greet Dad's slut? You could totally impress everyone by showing that whore who she really is, MA!
Easily influenced teen MA: *snobs Dubarry in public by not speaking to her*
Dubarry: I worked for this position. Lover, make the funny little carrot (*that*s what she called her in rl*) say hello to me, will you?
Louis XV: Say hello to my mistress, sweetie, will you?
Aunts: Don't do it! You're a Habsburg and the daughter of the most moral woman of Europe, she's a slut!
MA: Sorry, I can't.
Louis XV *summons Austrian Ambassador*: Tell MT to tell her daughter to say hello to my mistress, or the alliance is off.
MT *writes*: For God's sake, say hello to the mistress. I need that alliance. Your brother has just met Fritz at Neisse and is still starry eyed.
MA: But Mom! She's a slut! Surely you of all the people are not sanctioning talking to sluts!
MT: I would never malign my beloved husband, your late father and thus I won't mention I did talk to his mistress, before and after his death, but I will very cryptically say that sometimes needs must, some monarchs have their weaknesses and are still good people, and also, needs must, and did I mention I need that alliance? Say hello to Dubarry, that's all you need to do for your mother and your mother's empire.
MA: I'm very disappointed in you, Mom, but fine. *gets ready, but at the last moment does not talk to Dubarry and snubs her in public again, because she's 15 and a brat*
Louis XV: Should I write to Fritz instead?
MT: *unleashes her full written wrath on her fifteenth kid*
MA: *caves and says exactly seven words to Dubarry, in public* "There are many people tonight at Versailles."
Louis XV: Dear MT, we're good and staying allies.

Flashforward to three years later: Louis XV dies. Dubarry, as was the custom also when previous French kings died, is sent away during his dying so he can confess and is not in a state of sin. However, these ladies were then pensioned off, whereas...

MA: Dear Mom, am proudly writing my first letter as Queen now. Among many new things I'm doing is this: Making sure that slut Dubarry finally gets what's coming to her! Should have seen her face when she had to leave! No more creature comforts for you, whore!
MT: For God's sake. "I don't wish to hear from you about Dubarry again unless you write words of compassion." (Literal quote.) She's just lost everything, given she's been a mistress she's facing hellfire when she dies unless she repents, so you can show her some kindness now as a good Christian should.
MA: I don't get you, Mom. I really don't get you.

re: Joseph, you already know he was Fritz-style unkind to his second wife. (And admitted later when she was dead that he could at least have been civil, not least since the consequence of his behaviour was that the courtiers took their cue from him and she was utterly isolated.) He also could be high handed, when trying to imitate Fritz in his foreign policy he invited disaster (see previous post; this almost war about the Bavarian Succession is but one example), and his reforms had this problem:

Joseph: Having Latin as the official language in schools bars the peasantry and a lot of the middle class from understanding anything. Therefore, I shall make German the official school language, thus opening the realm of learning to all the people, not just nobles and a few outstanding middle class scholars! The language of the people, for the people! Yay!

Hungarians, Czechs and assorted other East Europeans ruled over by the Habsburgs: What do you mean by "the people", asshole? We didn't save your mother's throne back in the day for you to impose German on us! HABSBURG LINGUISTIC TYRANNY!

Joseph: *gets never crowned in Hungary*

Joseph: One of the great evils of an Ancien Regime court is that ordinary citizens can't speak to their ruler, except for a very few times when Mom wants to make a point. They have to pay a dozen courtiers and civil servants before their petitions even have a chance of advancing, many can't afford that, and all the time, the nobles are getting fat with the bribery money. I shall therefore radically reform the entire system by making myself available directly to the people in halls, floors and on the streets and by contrast ignore any nobles bringing petitions. After all, the nobility is just a tiny percentage of my people, and I need to be there for all the others.

Nobles: Joseph, you asshole! We hate you forever! This is still a monarchy, buddy, and we're financing most of your army. See where you'll be without us.

Leopold *writes letter to friend*: Saw my brother Joe speaking to a dirty peasant while going up the stairs. Ew, ew, ew. I'm pro reform, too, but for sensible ones, that avoid pissing off everyone. For God's sake!

Ordinary people: ...does that mean we've paid Count X and Secretary Y for nothing and the Emperor still hasn't heard our case? This new Emperor is a tyrant!

Joseph: A major problem in this country is the stranglehold the Catholic church has on everything, including our education. I mean, just look at Mom. She was brilliant, don't get me wrong! I argued with her all the time while we were co-ruling, but I still admire the hell out of her, and by the way, Poldl, you snidely writing she was half senile near the end was a) a jerk move, and b) dead wrong, as I'm in the best position to know - look at that stunt she pulled with Catherine and Fritz when I was trying to take over Bavaria. That was in the last year of her life. Also, you weren't there, I was, you were in Tuscany. Anyway, as I was saying: Mom. Imagine what she'd have been like if she hadn't been educated by the most old fashioned Jesuit Granddad could find! So: I'm decreeing that education of the young, nobles and peasants alike, should be put into non-clerical hands. Any priest who does still want to teach needs to go to a non-clerical seminar first and qualify just like a layman would. Also, I want teaching priests swear loyalty to the state. Oh, and any orders who don't make themselves socially useful by running hospitals or caring for the poor get shut down and run out of the country.

Church: Clearly, Joseph is a secret atheist and may be the antichrist. Also, who do you think has been propping up your house all this time, buddy? Do you really think the Habsburgs would still be ruling without us? Preachers, tell everyone what's going on!

People: The Emperor is a godless fiend who wants us to give our children into the hands of the Freemasons who'll teach them evil rituals! I'm not sending my kid into one of those schools! Never!

Leopold: Congratulations, bro. You've now managed to piss off the nobles, the church and the people. Anyone left?

Joseph: Yes, Mr. Mozart, you may write a German language opera. In fact, I've been thinking. More people should write German language operas. As patron of the arts of this realm, I'm renaming the Burgtheater (literal: Castle theatre, used until that point exclusively by the imperial family and the nobility) into Deutsches National Theater, because that was one area Fritz was completely wrong in, and I'm determined to encourage German language culture in all departments, thus making the enjoyment of opera and theatre accessible to ordinary people!

Italian composers: Fuck no!

Edited Date: 2019-10-22 09:01 am (UTC)

From:

selenak

Re: the only allowing one of her kids to marry for love, whereas she did marry the man of her choice: double standard indeed, though in fairness, the situation was different in that one of the reasons why she knew her Franzl ahead of time and thus had the opportunity to fall in love with him was that he was partially raised at the court in Vienna when not in Lorraince. And the reason for this was that her father was at least tentatively eyeing him as a potential marriage candidate for one of his daughters. (Like Fritz having young Carl Eugen raised in Prussia, then marrying him to Wilhelmine's daughter.) While this had not been done with the intention of making Franz Stefan the Emperor - since MT's Dad kept hoping for a son of his own throughout - he was seen as a possible suitable political alliance for an arch duchess, so her love match also made political sense.

(Well, except for the part that by the time they did marry, her political value as heiress had increased so much that FS was no longer a truly beneficial candidate, but that's another story.)

Ultimately, though, it came down to marriage as a key way to make or maintain alliances, and the famous Habsburg motto: Tu felix Austria nube! MT did not have all those children as a private person, after all, or for her own maternal joy. She had them as part of her duty to her country. (And to prevent the situation she herself had been in, with only two female children - her and her younger sister Maria Anna (aka Marianne), who died when still in her 20s - left to secure the future.) Making an exception for MC was possible because out of the 16, ten were still alive (and marriagle/already married) at that point, but if all had been allowed to marry (or not) according to their own choosing, the entire purpose of their existence would have been abandoned.

There was also the fact Franz Stefan really went through a non-stop humiliation conga in the early years as the guy without political clout of his own (as a ruler in his own right would have had). Starting with the marriage ceremony: because the House of Lorraine was not a royal one (they were dukes, after all), his younger brother, who was present, could only be present as a private citizen and could not be greeted by the other royals present or the papal nuntius. Who wasn't able to say hello to the groom, either. Because he'd had to give up his duchy, he was entirely dependent on the Habsburgs and told by his father in law, in public, that "since the Emperor had given him the honor of marrying his daughter he would have to suffer all at the Emperor's pleasure", his only use was to father sons, and if he couldn't even do that, what was the point of him? (If Joseph had been born before MT's dad died, he would have been able to bypass her as heiress, made the baby his heir and install a regent.) No fellow sovereign who'd been married for politics would have been treated this way. And precisely because MT loved her Franzl, she hated seeing this happen, and might not have regarded marriage (primarily) for love as an example to follow.

Incidentally, Franz Stefan's letter to his son Leopold when the later became Duke of Tuscany is quite revealing in what he learned during that time: With politeness, amiabilitiy and gentleness (politesse, complaisance & douceur) one got further than with a lordly tone (le ton de maitre); inner calm (tranquilleté chez soi) was more important than authority. In matters not of crucial importance, it was okay to concede and let the other win. Especially for marriage, it was important to listen to each other and learn to deal with each other's temper (humeur). A wife should see her husband as a true friend, not as a lord and master. The ideal marriage was: "sincere friendship and complete trust between husband and wife". In general, he adviced his son to put himself into the other party's shoes now and then and always be careful of his own flaws, for nous meme, we ourselves, were the worst enemy we could have.

(This is clearly both why MT loved him and why his contemporaries thought he was a joke, and not like a man should be at all.)

Back to Isabella, but still on the topic of advice per letter: the non-amatory quotes from the letters in the biography I'm reading make it clear she had no problem giving Joseph the impression she loved him. (Till his own death, he always said the time with her had been "the greatest happiness of my life" and that she was the most wonderful person he ever knew, etc.) She also instructs MC on how to behave: MC was supposed to show "the arch duke" as she consistently called him that she admired Isabella for her character, not for her tender qualities. As he hated open flattery, MC should not compliment him directly, just ensure to make a positive comment now and then in a situation where he overheard but could believe she didn't know she was there. That way, smooth sibling relations and MC's constant presence at her side would be ensured, etc. It's quite manipulative, but it has to be said it was survival stragegy, for Isabella couldn't have known she'd die early. In the normal run of things, she'd have remained married to Joseph for decades, and he'd have had complete authority over her life. If he'd behaved towards her as FW did to Sophia Dorothea, for example, or as her own father had behaved towards her mother, then once his mother was dead there would have been no one to stop him. So it's understandable she didn't trust him, or anyone else (other than MC?)and instead prefered using strategy and manipulation.

(She did with MT, too, because of course she knew that as long as MT lived, her word was ultimate law in Vienna, and thus winning and keeping her favour was quintessential. Writes Isabella to MC about MT: "The Empress has an excellent, tender and compassionate heart" but "she distrusts her own insight, she forgets that few people are sincere and true friends are a rareity. That is where the mistakes she makes hail from; that is the root of the indecision she occasionally shows; and thus she at times asks those for council who are more impertinent than others in offering their falseness." Therefore, MC was supposed to outmaneuvre everyone else and take advantage of the fact that one of MT's primary virtues was loyalty, that if you'd once won her friendship, she remained your friend for life. Of course it was difficult to "be the friend of a great princess, a monarch and your own mother" since the unequality of rank and the respect for a parent were in the way, but that with "discretion, steadfastness and a lack of sensitivity towards attacks by others scheming to be close to MT", it could be done.

It comes across as cold-blooded, but like I said: in an ancien regime court, this was survival technique.

From:

selenak

Am absolutely thrilled we got a fellow Frederician on board!!! We're going to have so much fun!

From:

selenak

...who was called MT after his mother. When she died at only 7 years of age, he wrote this letter to her governess, Christine de Trazegnies, Marquise d'Herzelles:

Madame,

If decency permitted, it would be with you alone that I would be pouring out the sorrow which… pierces my soul. I have ceased to be a father: it is more than I can bear. Despite being resigned to it, I cannot stop myself thinking and saying every moment: ‘O my God, restore to me my daughter, restore her to me.’ I hear her voice, I see her. I was dazed when the terrible blow fell. Only after I had got back to my room did I feel the full horror of it, and I shall go on feeling it all the rest of my life, since I shall miss her in everything. But not that I have, I believe, fulfilled all the duties of a father - and a good father - one [duty] remains which I hear my daughter imposing on me: that of rendering thanks to you. Madame, where would you wish me to begin? All your trouble and care have been beyond price. But [she] would never forgive me if I did not at least try to induce you to accept the enclosed offering as a memento of all that I owe you and a pledge of all that I should like to do for you. In addition the sincere respect and true friendship that I have sworn to you can in some way discharge [my obligation], you can be sure it will be unshakable. I venture to ask only one favour from you, which is that no one shall ever know anything about it and that even between ourselves - since I am counting on our weeping and talking again together about this dear child - there will never be any mention of it, or you will at once cause me to regret fulfilling this duty. I beg you to urge the same absolute silence of Mlle Chanclos, for whom I also enclose a letter; it is for me a point of importance. As my daughter’s sole heir, I have just given orders… that I should keep only her diamonds. [You are to have everything else.] One thing that I would ask you to let me have is her white dimity dressing-gown, embroidered with flowers, and some of her writings. I have her mother’s, I shall keep them together. Have pity on a friend in despair, and be sure that I can hardly wait for the moment when I come to see you…

Your true friend and servant,

Joseph

This unhappy 23 January, which has overturned our happy and so successful household, 1770.

From:

selenak

...which you must have been wondering. Not with his wives, obviously, and Fritz might have gone for it one time if only to annoy MT, but generally he didn't trust him, and one wants true affection for one's ship. Possible candidates: the circle of five, allow me to copypaste:

"In late eighteenth-century Vienna there existed a remarkable coterie of five aristocratic women, known to history as “the five princesses” (die fünf Fürstinnen), who achieved social preeminence and acclaim as close associates of the Habsburg “reform emperor” Joseph II: Princess Maria Josepha Clary (1728–1801); Princess Maria Sidonia Kinsky (1729–1815); Princess Marie Leopoldine Liechtenstein (1733–1809); Countess—subsequently Princess—Marie Leopoldine Kaunitz (1741–1795); and Princess Marie Eleonore Liechtenstein (1745–1812). (...)
In a remarkable letter written in summer 1775, Grand Duke Leopold scolded his older brother Emperor Joseph about the unsuitable company Joseph kept. Leopold’s critique was direct and vivid: “that persons among the groups you visit informally dare to meddle by talking to you about political matters and accordingly if they are women to make wrongheaded objections … and even dare to scold you … or make impertinent remarks, and that you can allow this, tolerate it, and visit them again seems to me one of the most astonishing things in the world.”

(He may have abolished the death penalty in his dukedom before Joseph did but we don't like Poldl, no we don't, precious. When Mozart wrote La Clemenza di Tito for his coronation, Leopold's wife called it "una porcheria tedesca", a German swinishness.

Joseph, for his part, referred to the "charmed circle" as "“five ladies joined together in society who tolerated me" and when he was on his deathbed in 1790, he wrote this to the five:

Mesdames, it is time, my end approaches, to acknowledge to you once more here through these lines my appreciation and gratitude for the kindness, patience, friendship, and even flattering concern that you have been good enough to show me and to bestow on me during the many years we have been together in society. I miss each of those days, not once were there too many for me, and never to see you again is the only meritorious sacrifice I make in leaving this world, be so good as to remember me in your prayers, I cannot be sufficiently grateful for the grace and infinite mercy of providence to me, in complete accord therewith I await my hour, farewell then, you will be unable to read this scribbling, the handwriting attests to my condition.

For a m/m ship, there's Angelo Soliman, one of the earliest black citizens of Vienna, who was befriended by Joseph and often played chess with him. (His post mortem fate is infuriating. Franz II - son of Leopold - had him mummified and put on display in a museum where Angelo's own daughter had to see him.) Angelo also knew Mozart and may or may not have been the model for Bassa Selim in Die Entführung aus dem Serail.

Edited Date: 2019-10-22 03:11 pm (UTC)

From:

selenak

The man of her choice turned out to be Prince Albert (no, really), who was a sixth son (and the thirteenth child all in all), and thus really a penniless prince (grandkid of August the Strong). (Fritz having invaded Saxony by now, that descent wasn't worth much anyway.) They had one child, a daughter, who died the day of her birth, and the birth was so difficult that MC could not get pregnant again. Otherwise, though, she was happy in her marriage. (She later persuaded brother Leopold to give her one of his sons for adoption so she and Albert would have an heir.) After MT's brother-in-law had died, she wanted MC and Albert to govern the Austrian Netherlands after him. (The Austrian Netherlands were roughly the territory of Belgium and Luxemburg.) Then she died, and trouble started.

Joseph honored the appointment, but he also insisted they'd reform the Austrian Netherlands according to his new program. And cut down their budget.

MC: I can't believe you're cutting down my budget! How are we're supposed to represent the Empire this way?!?
Joseph: The way I do. Your husband can wear uniforms. You can wear a dress more than once.
MC: You're mean and jealous. Because Mom liked me better. Yep. That's whom you're jealous of.
Joseph: I've spent seven weeks in the Austrian Netherlands, and they really need reforming. Here's a detailed list of what you and Albert are supposed to do and the laws you're supposed to sign. Do not dare to do anything else. Micromanagement is the way to go, says Fritz!
Albert: So we're just there to be pretty faces in old fashioned clothes? That sucks! MC, we're off to visit your sister in Paris.
MC: Ah, the city of light. Party time!
Marie Antoinette: If you must, but not in my favourite place. You get a public reception in Versailles, and that's that.
MC: But when Joseph visited, you were all over him! For weeks! And weeks!
MA: He helped me and Louis with an urgent problem. Also, we like each other, even if he's a lecturing know-it-all. Whereas I still can't stand you. Bye.
MC: Jealous siblings are the curse of my existence. Is it my fault Mom liked me best?
Albert: Better go to Vienna and make nice with Joseph.
Joseph: I thought I told you two to govern the Netherlands for me.
MC: We can't! You don't let us decide anything! And everyone hates your reforms!
Joseph: You're going back to the Netherlands. Reform already!
Netherlands: have a minor uprising.
MC: This is all bloody Joseph's fault!
Revolution in France: Ensues.
Netherlands: Have a major uprising as a follow up, resulting in the first Republic of Belgium.
MC: No way am I going to let myself captured by the peasants like silly MA. Come on, Albert, we're off to Bonn in exile until Joe sends us troops, more money and finally admits his reforms are rubbish!

Joseph: *dies*
MC: Well, I'm not exactly broken. Poldl, do we have a deal? Troops? Decision leaveway? Heir?
Leopold: *sends troops who take Netherlands/Belgium back* Okay, you two are governors again. But the actual governing shall be done by this new kid I've just discovered. He's got talent. Step forward, Metternich.
Albert: I can't believe your family. I'm so writing a trashy tell-all after you're all dead.
Leopold: *dies*
Franz II: You two can stay as my representatives, except...
French Revolutionary Army: *arrives*
Napoleon: What can I say. It's a new era.

MC: I liked the time when Isabella told me I was the most wonderful person alive much better. Albert, we're off to Vienna. My nephew has to cough up a pension.
Albert: Still writing that tell-all though.
MC: *dies in Vienna*
Albert: *comissions a tomb by Canova titled "Uxori Optimae Albertus" (to the best wife, Albert), collects graphics, gets the Albertinum in Vienna named after him*

From:

cahn

morbane confirmed that Stanisław August Poniatowski was nominated for this fandom specifically :) So... King of Poland and lover of Catherine the Great, eh? How does he fit in, and does this have to do with Fritz carving up Poland with MT and Catherine?? ~~am I gonna have to request him~~

From:

cahn

Sure, why not! :)

From:

selenak

Honestly, I don't know more than what his wikipedia entry says. Though a man whose election (Poland's was a electable monarchy) to the throne was Russia sponsored might bring certain unfortunate associations these days. *veg* (Which would probably be unfair to him, he sounds much brighter than that in his Wiki entry.)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I *still* think it's a very real possibility someone saw our Catherine nomination and wanted Catherine/Poniatowski fic, because "Historical Royals and Their Favourites" didn't exist until like yesterday.

But if somebody wants Poland/Prussia politics fic re partitioning, or if Fritz and Poniatowski had interactions that I don't know about (I mean, I had no idea Franz Stefan was charmed by Crown Prince Fritz before the whole Silesia thing *cough*), then I can't wait to see what they come up with! I'll be keeping an eye out for a request with Poniatowski in it. (I realize nominating doesn't mean someone's going to request it, so we may never know what they had in mind.)

As you may have gathered from Wikipedia, Poland had an elective monarchy, Catherine used her influence to get one of her boytoys elected, and he surprised everyone by having opinions of his own and trying to actually do right by Poland from time to time. But he was defeated by the combined strength of Russia, Prussia, and Austria and didn't end up putting up a fight during the partition. I don't think even Fritz was winning that three-front war (Poniatowski was king of a very weak state) under those circumstances, though I think he might have put up more of a fight (but that depends entirely on his background in this AU and how he ended up king, because it sure wasn't by being Catherine's lover!).

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Okay, so if even *you* don't know anything about how Poniatowski fits into Fritz's life other than the First Partition of Poland, then I'm even more inclined to think this might have been a straight-up Catherine the Great request.

From:

cahn

I actually did not know about Marie Antoinette vs. Dubarry (I knew about both of those figures, but had not heard about both of them together -- my French history of this time is better than most of my abysmal history, but actually lower on the gossipy sensationalism, lol)

MA: *caves and says exactly seven words to Dubarry, in public* "There are many people tonight at Versailles."
Louis XV: Dear MT, we're good and staying allies.

This totally made me laugh out loud and I can't even fully articulate why, I think because it's so anticlimactic and yet, well, solves the problem!

(You know I'm going to ask you about MT and talking to Franz' mistress now, right? :P I mean, you did mention that she gave her a pension as Franz had requested, but that seems easier in some ways than actually talking to her...?)

MT: For God's sake. "I don't wish to hear from you about Dubarry again unless you write words of compassion." (Literal quote.) She's just lost everything, given she's been a mistress she's facing hellfire when she dies unless she repents, so you can show her some kindness now as a good Christian should.
MA: I don't get you, Mom. I really don't get you.

This is sooooo fascinating. Go MT! (although MA has a point! if you're going to sex police everyone then you can't be surprised when your kid learns some things from it!)

I gotta admit all of this (except for his second wife, oh man, mildred is right, all of history is just everyone having PTSD at each other :( ) is making me even more kind of wanting to pat the head of Woobie Rational Fanboy Joseph. He's so clueless, awwwww!

(also yay Zauberflöte, gotta admit that puts me on your side, Joseph)

From:

cahn

But there's a freaking "18th Century CE Russian Royalty RPF" category! Why not in that one? I guess Poniatowski wasn't Russian... (Perhaps next year we'll see Catherician RPF :D )

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I keep wondering about that. Maybe because he wasn't Russian royalty?

...Or maybe someone just really likes the Polish partition! Or we're all going to be surprised!

There is the Catherine miniseries, although, as noted by Selena, so far dominated by Peter III fans.

From:

selenak

Well, having read up on wiki: he did meet some of the players and locations of interest, as in:

"He went on his first foreign trip in 1748, with elements of the Imperial Russian army as it advanced into the Rhineland to aid Maria Theresia's troops during the War of the Austrian Succession which ended with the Treaty of Aix-la-Chapelle (1748). This enabled Poniatowski both to visit the city, also known as Aachen, and to venture into the Netherlands. On his return journey he stopped in Dresden."

His affair with Catherine predates her husband's death and thus her ascension; he did propose when she got on the throne, and she basically replied: "You're pretty, but not that pretty."

He was distantly related to the Stuarts (which wasn't useful in the century where they fell from power early on), and given Fritz' opinion on Poles, if they did meet there would have been either fireworks or a lot of testy silence, because, to copy paste wiki again:

"Frederick had despised the Poles since his youth, and numerous statements are known in which he expressed anti-Polish prejudice,[63] calling Polish society "stupid" and stating that "all these people with surnames ending with -ski, deserve only contempt".[64] He passionately hated everything associated with Poland, while justifying his hatred and territorial expansion with ideas of the Enlightenment.[65] He described Poles as "slovenly Polish trash";[66][c] referring to them in a letter from 1735 as "dirty" and "vile apes",[67] and compared the Polish peasants to American Indians.[68]
King Frederick II, by Anna Dorothea Therbusch, 1772

Frederick undertook the conquest of Polish territory under the pretext of an enlightened civilizing mission, given his disparagement of Poland and its ruling elite, all of which provided a convenient entree for the "sanguine meliorism" of the Enlightenment and heightened assurance in the "distinctive merits of the 'Prussian way'".[69][70] He prepared the ground for the partition of Poland-Lithuania in 1752 at latest, hoping to gain a territorial bridge between Pomerania, Brandenburg, and his East Prussian provinces.[71] Frederick was himself partly responsible for the weakness of the Polish government, having inflated its currency by his use of Polish coin dies obtained during the conquest of Saxony in 1756: the profits exceeded 25 million thalers, twice the peacetime national budget of Prussia.[72][73] He opposed attempts of political reform in Poland, and his troops bombarded customs ports on the Vistula, thwarting Polish efforts to create a modern fiscal system.[74] As early as 1731 Frederick had suggested that his country would benefit from annexing Polish Prussia in order to join the separated territories his own kingdom.[75]

According to Scott, Frederick was eager to exploit Poland economically as part of his wider aim of enriching Prussia. Scott views this as a continuation of his previous violations of Polish territory in 1759 and 1761 and raids within Greater Poland until 1765. "

Also, another possible connection: according to one of my biographies, Fritz brought up a possible three part Poland partioning first to Joseph when meeting him at Neisse, and Joseph told MT afterwards.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

all of history is just everyone having PTSD at each other :(

Exactly what I was thinking when

selenak reported Fritz offering to kidnap tall shepherd guy (remember, he personally thought the Potsdam Giants were a waste of money and military resources and made them not a thing as soon as he became king): "Please accept this peace offering, Dad! Please don't send my newest BF(F) Fredersdorf to the other side of the country/execute him/whatever else you might be thinking!"

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Yes, interactions like that are the only kind I'm aware of, so I'm wondering what kind of *fic* this person wants. "Having inflated its currency by his use of Polish coin dies" is not your average Yuletide fic!

Admittedly it's the *exact* kind of fic I was writing for that novel in high school, which had very few character interactions and lots and lots of military history, politics, and economics. :P

From:

cahn

...you know, I would be all over a fic that hinged on the dastardly plan to inflate currency with Polish coin dies. I get a huge kick out of plotty economics!

I guess it's probably good we're not the average Yuletide fandom? :D

From:

cahn

Okay, I didn't realize my heart was going to be broken this morning :P

Oh, poor Joseph :((((((((((

From:

cahn

...I mean, it may have been cold-blooded, but given the situation they were all in (forced marriage, annulment/divorce not really easy and the resulting position probably being far worse) it does seem like the best thing for everyone, really. Of course I'm coming from the position of having just read Sophia Dorothea and FW basically clawing each other's eyes out (FW, of course, managing to do a lot more damage from a position of power) and that just doesn't sound fun for anyone, whereas in this case it seems like everyone got to be more-or-less content.

Isabella actually sounds really fascinating -- I feel like a lot of what she's saying here is, while perhaps manipulative, actually true (e.g., what she says about MT) and the best way to familial and marital harmony under these circumstances -- I feel like it comes across as manipulative in large part because she actually thought about it and analyzed it for MC rather than just doing it. (Or maybe this is just me being spectrum-y again :P )

And if you'd told me about all this a month earlier I would have been inclined to spinoff Maria Theresian RPF and nominate her :P (Probably good that you didn't, you and mildred would probably have killed me)

ETA: And wait, I forgot to ask all my questions!

(Well, except for the part that by the time they did marry, her political value as heiress had increased so much that FS was no longer a truly beneficial candidate, but that's another story.)

WELL? :D

Incidentally, Franz Stefan's letter to his son Leopold when the later became Duke of Tuscany is quite revealing in what he learned during that time:

By the way, Franz Stefan is AWESOME. My question: so how was Leopold's marital life?

Edited Date: 2019-10-22 06:14 pm (UTC)

From:

cahn

Heeeeee, I actually wasn't :P It is hilarious though that you have answers to this :D

From:

cahn

Wow, this is amazing and hilarious. Umm, I guess I'm glad they were happy together? For some value of "happy" that includes "annoyed at siblings and history"? :)

From:

zdenka

I knew about the Marie Antoinette and Dubarry thing from the Rose of Versailles anime! :D Though it sounds like the anime was actually closer to history there than I was expecting.

Page 1 of 16 << [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] >>

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only