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Oct. 10th, 2013 09:08 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahnThis Sunday I have to give a talk on Agency in the Plan of Salvation. Agency, here, means the capacity to act, to make choices. It's kind of a cornerstone of LDS theology, and even an essential part of our creation mythology (I'll explain that in a sec), that we are able to act for ourselves, that we act with responsibility and accountability, that we choose between good and evil.
So I've been having some scattered thoughts.
-Almost the first thing I thought of, when I got the topic, is the part where Miles Vorkosigan muses that Cordelia used to tell him, "When you choose an action, you choose the consequences of that action. When you desire a consequence you had damned well better take the action that would create it." This probably says something about me. I'm not sure what. I'm gonna try really hard to work this quote in, although I suppose I'll have to excise "damned" in church :)
That quote is from Memory, which I'm not coincidentally rereading right now, and my gosh is that book about choices, the choices Miles makes, the choices that screw him up and the choices that redeem him. I am who I choose to be. I have always been what I chose, though not always what I pleased. The choices that have consequences he could not have dreamed (*cough* inviting Duv and Laisa to the party); the choices that are really no choices at all. (He was never going to commit treason to go back to the Dendarii, even if everyone he knew thought he was going to.) And then there's my beloved Illyan, who seems to be given no choices at all, but still makes his own choices, to live with what has been decided for him.
(Also, I now want the AU where Miles doesn't apologize and is condemned, and Haroche apologizes and is forgiven, because it seems so unfair.)
(Also: this time around I'm feeling really super sorry for Galeni. I don't know why particularly this time? Poor, excellent Duv.)
-LDS creation mythology takes the bit in Revelation (Ch 12) that goes, Behold a great red dragon... and his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven...And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him and runs with it.
The LDS version: Basically, we (you and I, the premortal spirits of the whole human race) were there when two plans were presented: one by Jesus and one by Lucifer/Satan. Lucifer's was that we would all be saved. Jesus' plan was that we would be able to choose to be saved or not. Jesus' plan was accepted and Lucifer's was rejected. Lucifer was angry, and this was what precipitated the war in heaven. One third of the premortal spirits went with Lucifer, and never got mortal bodies (in this world/life). The other two-thirds accepted Jesus' plan and were born / will be born into this world. While in this world, we get to choose good or evil.
Okay, I know there are huge gaping logical holes in this (if we... got to choose... in the premortal existence, what exactly was the point of coming here? etc.) but as a story I think it's very interesting, and it says sort of deep things about how fundamental this axiom of free will, of choice (er, so to speak), is in the LDS religion. I'm not aware of another Christian belief or heresy that treats the War in Heaven in anything like a similar way, although if you know of one, I'd love to hear about it!
-It made me think about how all the parenting books say that you should give your kid choices. Being able to choose is how you learn... which is, sort of, what the LDS mythology story above is saying.
(Incidentally, cute E story: I apparently give her choices a lot, because she's started giving ME choices: "Mommy, do you want the red block or the blue block?" The only problem is, I'll say "The red block!" and she'll screw up her face and say, "But I wanted the red block..." I'm actually trying to stop her giving me choices!)
-I do believe in free will. I do not believe in total predeterminism. I suppose a lot of that is my LDS background, because the idea of choice, of free will, is so ingrained from so early on... But I do think, you know, that we don't have as many choices as we think we do. Much of what we do is, in fact, probably pretty determined by the person we are. The college I went to, or the grad school: I had choices, I could have picked one of several for each. But I didn't really. Being the person I was, with the thoughts and ambitions and pressures I had, I don't think I could have chosen otherwise in either case except by being a different person. Maybe in the end it's only the small choices we have control over --
-And maybe the point is: the point of choices is, by making those small choices every day, to make ourselves into the person we want to be, into the person who will make the big decisions in the way we want our best selves to make them.
-...I need to think about this a lot more. Talk's supposed to be 10-12 minutes, and I think I have only about 5 here (since I'm not exactly going to talk at great length about Bujold :) )
So I've been having some scattered thoughts.
-Almost the first thing I thought of, when I got the topic, is the part where Miles Vorkosigan muses that Cordelia used to tell him, "When you choose an action, you choose the consequences of that action. When you desire a consequence you had damned well better take the action that would create it." This probably says something about me. I'm not sure what. I'm gonna try really hard to work this quote in, although I suppose I'll have to excise "damned" in church :)
That quote is from Memory, which I'm not coincidentally rereading right now, and my gosh is that book about choices, the choices Miles makes, the choices that screw him up and the choices that redeem him. I am who I choose to be. I have always been what I chose, though not always what I pleased. The choices that have consequences he could not have dreamed (*cough* inviting Duv and Laisa to the party); the choices that are really no choices at all. (He was never going to commit treason to go back to the Dendarii, even if everyone he knew thought he was going to.) And then there's my beloved Illyan, who seems to be given no choices at all, but still makes his own choices, to live with what has been decided for him.
(Also, I now want the AU where Miles doesn't apologize and is condemned, and Haroche apologizes and is forgiven, because it seems so unfair.)
(Also: this time around I'm feeling really super sorry for Galeni. I don't know why particularly this time? Poor, excellent Duv.)
-LDS creation mythology takes the bit in Revelation (Ch 12) that goes, Behold a great red dragon... and his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven...And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him and runs with it.
The LDS version: Basically, we (you and I, the premortal spirits of the whole human race) were there when two plans were presented: one by Jesus and one by Lucifer/Satan. Lucifer's was that we would all be saved. Jesus' plan was that we would be able to choose to be saved or not. Jesus' plan was accepted and Lucifer's was rejected. Lucifer was angry, and this was what precipitated the war in heaven. One third of the premortal spirits went with Lucifer, and never got mortal bodies (in this world/life). The other two-thirds accepted Jesus' plan and were born / will be born into this world. While in this world, we get to choose good or evil.
Okay, I know there are huge gaping logical holes in this (if we... got to choose... in the premortal existence, what exactly was the point of coming here? etc.) but as a story I think it's very interesting, and it says sort of deep things about how fundamental this axiom of free will, of choice (er, so to speak), is in the LDS religion. I'm not aware of another Christian belief or heresy that treats the War in Heaven in anything like a similar way, although if you know of one, I'd love to hear about it!
-It made me think about how all the parenting books say that you should give your kid choices. Being able to choose is how you learn... which is, sort of, what the LDS mythology story above is saying.
(Incidentally, cute E story: I apparently give her choices a lot, because she's started giving ME choices: "Mommy, do you want the red block or the blue block?" The only problem is, I'll say "The red block!" and she'll screw up her face and say, "But I wanted the red block..." I'm actually trying to stop her giving me choices!)
-I do believe in free will. I do not believe in total predeterminism. I suppose a lot of that is my LDS background, because the idea of choice, of free will, is so ingrained from so early on... But I do think, you know, that we don't have as many choices as we think we do. Much of what we do is, in fact, probably pretty determined by the person we are. The college I went to, or the grad school: I had choices, I could have picked one of several for each. But I didn't really. Being the person I was, with the thoughts and ambitions and pressures I had, I don't think I could have chosen otherwise in either case except by being a different person. Maybe in the end it's only the small choices we have control over --
-And maybe the point is: the point of choices is, by making those small choices every day, to make ourselves into the person we want to be, into the person who will make the big decisions in the way we want our best selves to make them.
-...I need to think about this a lot more. Talk's supposed to be 10-12 minutes, and I think I have only about 5 here (since I'm not exactly going to talk at great length about Bujold :) )
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Date: 2013-10-11 02:09 am (UTC)These are interesting thoughts... Let me ponder a little and come back when I have a keyboard. Are you thinking about posting the talk on here, or would that be crossin the streams too much?
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Date: 2013-10-14 04:51 pm (UTC)I probably won't post the talk on here, not exactly because of crossing the streams but because it's not... It's a very different persona than the one I have here, I guess? But if you would like to see it, I could certainly email you a copy :)
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Date: 2013-10-12 04:47 pm (UTC)We've hit the "too many choices" wall with Kiddo. and sometimes he gets a little paralyzed by which way to turn. But the minute he figured out he could go with "none of the above," choices got way more difficult.
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Date: 2013-10-14 04:58 pm (UTC)So in LDS theology we do have to decide to be saved; this is in stark contrast to (say) my husband's Lutheran theology, which says that we cannot decide this, that it's all done by the Spirit.
The other part of this, of course, is that the very act of being able to choose, again in LDS theology, is one of the great gifts that God has given us, that we have through the atonement of Christ. So there is definitely a component there where it's not in our control, where salvation is in fact up to God, although the emphasis is a lot different than in usual Protestant theology.
Does it limit the power of our salvation? Having been brought up LDS, having been immersed in this mindset my whole life, I would say no? But someone else might feel differently.
I'd also say -- and now this is the gospel according to cahn; I don't think this is official LDS theology, although I also don't think I'm doing anything heretical here -- that salvation never happens in a vacuum; that it's together, it's acknowledging the bonds of love between ourselves and God, between each other, that leads to salvation. So yeah, part of the power of salvation is in that. In my opinion. :)
Heeeee. I don't let E get away with "none of the above"; if she chooses that, I decide for her. This is a strategy that works really well in the short term, although perhaps not in the long term -- I think I need to start introducing the concept of "Here is another choice that I would like to negotiate with you."