cahn | The Will to Battle (Palmer)

So I read The Will to Battle, the third Terra Ignota book, on the way to and from IL on this last trip. I continue to be more and more impressed with these books as they go on -- I think they may be an acquired taste to a certain extent, and also it was hard to appreciate what Palmer is trying to do in the depth of, say, only one book (which is really itself only half a book). That being said, there was a part in the middle where I had the thought that I really wanted to read this and knew I would like it, but at the same time I also rather wished I had already read it and was looking back at all the things I'd found out. (I don't remember ever thinking this about a book before.) By the time I was at the end, I had forgotten all those thoughts -- there was certainly a lot of action at the end.

Interestingly, I don't think I liked many characters in this book, but I didn't even think about that until the end -- I think Mycroft has grown on me a lot (as I was told might happen!) which helped a lot, but more importantly this is the kind of book where the worldbuilding (which I did like a lot!) is basically the most important character.

Various random and spoilery thoughts:

-I loved Martin's chapter. Martin is a rather interesting character to me (I did like them a lot!), and also I appreciated how different their thought processes are than Mycroft's when narrating.

-A couple of people mentioned to me in my post on the first book that Mycroft's assertion that everyone was marinated in Voltaire may have been due to Mycroft being an unreliable narrator, and now I see that's clearly true! I mean, we get way more evidence in this book that Mycroft is unreliable (see next point) but also: it took Mycroft this long to figure out that Martin was named after Martin the Manichee?? Not that I figured it out either, but a) I didn't realize or forgot that this was something to figure out, and b) I'm not claiming my society is marinated in Voltaire :PP

-Kind of funny in a meta way: it took me a very long time to figure out that Mycroft was deteriorating mentally, because by this time I was so used to e.g. Mycroft having random dialogues with the imaginary future reader that when they started adding Hobbes to the discourses I was all, "sure, why not? doesn't everyone like to craft mental dialogues with dead philosophers?" and it wasn't until Apollo started actually showing up not just in the dialogues but in what were clearly hallucinations that I was like, "...wait a second here..."

-maybe I knew who 9A was in the previous book but if so I had entirely forgotten, so it was nice to at least sort of understand who this person was who kept editing Mycroft's work!

-it was odd to me that the attitude towards Achilles seemed to be "wow, Achilles is so great! We know this based on having read the Iliad!" because, uh, this was totally not my impression of Achilles from the Iliad... I like TI!Achilles, but he also does not seem to me to be the same as Illiad!Achilles who pitched a super tantrum and sulked for ages because he didn't get what he wanted?? Maybe this is also Mycroft being an unreliable narrator??

-Huh, seems like Madame doesn't think her kid is a God even though everyone else seems pretty up with this at this point? She's still trash as a human being and I'm kind of weirded out that Thisbe gets a "yeah, no one cares about you, you suck, bye" and on the other hand Madame gets a "congrats, you get to be queen of Spain, the only catch is that you can't do this polyamory conspiracy thing anymore" even though the chief difference between them seems to be that Madame gets other people to do murders for fun instead of doing them herself like Thisbe. I mean, it may come to the same thing in the end, as Madame seems incapable of not doing polyamory or conspiracies, but ehhhhh.

-Gender: This book continues the previous books in Mycroft assigning gender more-or-less randomly (e.g., the chief of police "Papa" is biologically female, which honestly was a pretty cool move as I hadn't really Papa imagined as varying in sex, even though we knew this was the case for some people that Mycroft gendered). Again I imagine this was much more explosive in 2018 than it is now -- it's really interesting how much the societal norms around this have changed in just a few years. It was rather a relief, though, when we had chapters with different narrators who used they/them as the pronoun for everyone. (And that's changed a lot too -- back in 2018, I and my prescriptivism were still bitter about using "they" as a singular pronoun. Funny how quickly things changed!) I also wonder at this point, which I hadn't before, whether Mycroft is biologically female. Not that it should really matter at all, which is the point.

-All that being said, I had to go back and change a LOT of pronouns in this writeup. UGH my inborn biases :P

-Okay, I was kind of in an emotional state, but I did tear up a bit at Cato's now-grown-science-kids coming to rescue Cato to Utopia. That was my favorite part of the book.

-Oh boy that last-chapter fakeout of Mycroft's death! I was glad that we were "spoiled" that they were still alive, because that would be a heck of a thing to take into the last book thinking they were dead when they were actually alive (and would have been really annoying to be surprised by, too).

More random thinking about Hives: Gordian continues to be the Hive I feel I have the most natural affinity for, by far (it was also the one I ended up with when I took the Hive quiz after reading book 2). Faust was my fave in this book (the bit where they tell Carlyle to look at 48 pictures of subjects eating bananas made me laugh out loud), and I think I'd get along better with them than with most people in this book (while other people I know, like my sister, would find them entirely irritating). Utopia continues to be the Hive I'm most intrigued by (and, like, I sort of wish I were the kind of person that could sacrifice complacency, but I'm definitely not) and I still want to know what their deal is! (I'll be reading the fourth book soon...) It also occurred to me that if I had to sort my actual real-life self, I would probably be in the Cousins Hive, not least (though not wholly) because my church is... in very many ways basically a big ol' Cousins Hive, and it's the biggest RL source of community and (voluntary non-work) responsibility that I have.

I've got the fourth book on hold from the library and probably will dive right into it as soon as it gets here!

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

hamsterwoman

Yay, I've been waiting for your thoughts on this, and am very glad to hear them! :D (My comments are going to be a bit shallow, I think, because book 4 is a doozy and it's hard to talk about stuff without spoiling it, but I CANNOT WAIT until you're done with the whole thing! :D)

I continue to be more and more impressed with these books as they go on -- I think they may be an acquired taste to a certain extent, and also it was hard to appreciate what Palmer is trying to do in the depth of, say, only one book (which is really itself only half a book).

That was my experience/trajectory too, and it's just... really impressive how Palmer keeps upping the ante with each volume? Like, the whole tetralogy is clearly one large, very complex thing, and you just keep finding new levels/layers to it. I spent most of book 1 just really confused and getting used to the setting, and book 2 really understanding the conflict being set up, and book 3 building up to that world-altering conflict, and book 4 is... well, you'll get to book 4, but I spent 2 weeks in a fugue state reading it and having my brain blown successively wider and wider, and I feel like the whole thing is orchestrated with almost superhuman precision. (I think it was after book 3 that I concluded Palmer must be a literary set-set of some sort, to be able to pull this off :))

but at the same time I also rather wished I had already read it and was looking back at all the things I'd found out. (I don't remember ever thinking this about a book before.)

I think I remember feeling similarly at some point during reading, and I'm pretty sure it was specifically during book 3. So I think it might be an artefact of the way Palmer sets up the tension of building up to the war... (But part of it is also I think having built up enough trust in the author to know that looking back will be rewarding.)

I think Mycroft has grown on me a lot (as I was told might happen!) which helped a lot,

Yeah, I think this was the book where I realized how much, because I missed his POV while he was "dead".

but more importantly this is the kind of book where the worldbuilding (which I did like a lot!) is basically the most important character.

Yup! I think it's telling to look at the TI Yuletide requests and the fic on AO3 in general and see how much of it is Worldbuilding -- in a series with such an enormous cast, too!

it took me a very long time to figure out that Mycroft was deteriorating mentally, because by this time I was so used to e.g. Mycroft having random dialogues with the imaginary future reader that when they started adding Hobbes to the discourses I was all, "sure, why not? doesn't everyone like to craft mental dialogues with dead philosophers?"

Ha, same, and I think this revelation is so masterfully done, that slide from "ah, Mycroft is employing archaic narrative conventions" to "wait, no, he's legit hallucinating now" XD

it may come to the same thing in the end, as Madame seems incapable of not doing polyamory or conspiracies,

I could not pass this by without a LOL

the chief of police "Papa" is biologically female, which honestly was a pretty cool move

Yes! That was my favorite gender twist, and it also completely blindsided me. (The other biological sex reveal that got me in this book was Cookie, because it makes their Nurturist views feel even grosser to me, as they came across as really mansplainy...)

I also wonder at this point, which I hadn't before, whether Mycroft is biologically female. Not that it should really matter at all, which is the point.

Heh, it looks like my friends reading the series also had that thought at this point, because we had the following exchange shortly after my friend got to the Papa gender reveal:

Friend 1: ...is it confirmed that Mycroft isn't bio female?
me: Inasmuch as anything in Mycroft POV can be considered confirmed, yes. (He and Saladin get a makeout scene)
Friend 2: Yes but are dicks mentioned? I know he says boyhood. But like. what do we know.
me: Yes :) Actual line: "I could feel him getting hard beneath me, and heat stirred in my member too, eager to awaken after so long a sleep."
2: HAHAHA did you bookmark his gender evidence
me: (Yes I do have Mycroft's dick highlighted. For science, obviously. :D)

It's also interesting to me that you've switched over the "they/them" pronouns. I mostly stuck with Mycroft's pronouns until the end, except for a few cases where that felt uncomfortable (e.g. Sniper) or it just doesn't feel right (e.g. Carlyle, Cookie), where I tend to default to "them".

And, yeah, I've actually heard Palmer comment that even just in the time it took to get the first two books published, after they were written, the adoption of the singular "they" had changed A LOT -- when she was writing it, she was not copying common or even somewhat common modern usage, she was extrapolating from historical usage of singular "they".

but I did tear up a bit at Cato's now-grown-science-kids coming to rescue Cato to Utopia. That was my favorite part of the book.

That was so moving and lovely!

Faust was my fave in this book (the bit where they tell Carlyle to look at 48 pictures of subjects eating bananas made me laugh out loud),

Same! :D (thus icon, which also doubles as my general-purpose Gordian icon)

From:

cahn

Lololol at your friends also having the same thought as I did, and how you could refute them by having Mycroft's dick highlighted!

(I think it was after book 3 that I concluded Palmer must be a literary set-set of some sort, to be able to pull this off :))

...yeah, I concur!

It's also interesting to me that you've switched over the "they/them" pronouns

I mean, I clearly didn't switch over in my head, hence having to change all the original pronouns I used :) But using they/them did seem rather more, idk, in line with what the characters themselves might actually use, with some exceptions where the characters had definite ideas on gender (Madame, the men in her love pentangle or whatever).

From:

rachelmanija

I haven't read the books but of course I took the quiz, and apparently I'm a Cousin. I would not ban recreational drugs, but I do like the idea of government by suggestion box.

From:

cahn

That tracks! The Cousins are the ones who are interested and most active in counseling and teaching, among other things :)

From:

landofnowhere

Yaaaaay Terra Ignota!

I had guessed before starting this book what 9A was short for, and was thrilled to finally meet them. (I also really like 9A's narration, and prefer it to Mycroft's actually.)

Yeah, the take on Achilles is rather odd.

From:

cahn

Ahhhhh I had not guessed what 9A represented! I do like 9A's narration, though Martin's narration was my favorite :)

From:

landofnowhere

(actually I figured it out from looking at the list of characters at the start of The Will to Battle, being like oh, so Vivien's the 7th Anonymous, that makes Mycroft the 8th anonymous, but he's revealed himself so who's going to be the 9th Anonymous, hmm...)

From:

cahn

Oh! I... didn't look at the list of characters there.

Though I did look at the list of characters for Perhaps the Stars, which was entertaining, so thank you for this comment, without which I might have skipped that too!

From:

landingtree

Yay Terra Ignota!

I liked the third book least while I was reading it, but appreciated the way it lets you live in the ‘normal’ of the world for a bit. The first two books were A Lot the first time through, with scarcely a moment to sit in the strange society before it starts radically changing. I was a fan of the extended courtroom scene and how it put the world building’s money where its mouth is.

But I remember the ending of the book displeased me in a way that’s now lost to time because book four [redacted]. Keen to read your thoughts! As in your last post so many of the things you say make me go “…yep, not saying anything about that right now, but really keen to see how your thoughts on this develop”

From:

cahn

Ahhhhh well I am excited to read book 4! This was, like book 1, clearly the first half of a book setting up a lot of dominos that I am sure book 4 will knock down in spectacular fashion...

From:

tabacoychanel

You know I too had sorted Madame and Thisbe into the "iredeemable" bucket (Julia is in there too, i'm acutally shocked how few characters out of such a large cast belong in this bucket actually) but until you mentioned it I had not clocked the double standard there. Madame seems incapable of not doing polyamory or conspiracies lmfaoooo accurate

I like Faust too!!! The thing about Faust is that he's not a hypocrite, and he's got some amazing one liners (the 48 bananas among them), so I am inclined to like him even if some of his choices are objectively morally questionable. In this book I particularly liked how everyone else was like "pRoVe that yr rEAlLY achilles" and Faust is like "i saw you walk in the door...i know no one else who was raised by centaurs." A++

I am pretty sure I misgendered everyone multiple times in my writeups of these books. I have not done a reread yet but it's something I immensely look forward to--I mean I've reread individual favorite scenes but in terms of a cover-to-cover reread, there's just so many layers to excavate

Cato jailbreak was my favorite scene in this book too!!! I heard Ada talking about the way she structured it to be the emotionally cathartic scene the reader needed before hitting them with the big downer of the sinking of Atlantis/Mycroft's "death."

Martin is also my favorite narrator! I did not register the slow deterioration of Mycroft's mental state either, that was masterfully done on Ada's part.

Anyway I know I haven't commented before but I was also nudged/bribed by Anna into diving into this series and it has been one of the most rewarding experiences of my reading life, I'm so happy to hear you're getting just as much out of it!

From:

cahn

Oh yes, Julia too, that's right! Although with her I kind of feel like the issue is that she just has too much power, so she's kind of untouchable.

Yeah, the thing I like about Faust is that although some of his choices are morally questionable, he owns that and he's aware of what his own brain is doing. In a series where everyone has to make morally questionable choices, I like that!

In this book I particularly liked how everyone else was like "pRoVe that yr rEAlLY achilles" and Faust is like "i saw you walk in the door...i know no one else who was raised by centaurs." A++

Oh yes, that was awesome!!

This is such an interesting series, I finish every book and I'm like "okay I HAVE to TALK to people about this now!!" I hope we can talk after I finish the last one, at which point I am given to understand there will be a LOT more to talk about :)

From:

hidden_variable

Huh, seems like Madame doesn't think her kid is a God even though everyone else seems pretty up with this at this point?

Yeah, there is such a weird disconnect between what Madame is and what J.E.D.D. turned out to be. I’m not sure that we ever get clarity on whether his being a god (or whatever he is) is somehow because of her weird upbringing of him, or in spite of it. I don’t know whether this makes sense, but it just occurred to me that there’s a sort of parallel here with Bridger taking two horrifying murderers (Mycroft and Thisbe) and turning them into his “parents,” who actually do a fairly good job of raising him considering the circumstances.

I also loved Cato’s former students coming to his rescue!

Anyway, I have now read all four books, and there are multiple things I’m biting my tongue to avoid mentioning. It will be a fun discussion after you’ve finished book 4. :)

From:

cahn

Ah, I'm glad to know we might not get clarity on that Madame & J.E.D.D. thing. I also suppose maybe it's an inversion of the Virgin Mary concept, where Madame is, well, the opposite of a humble virgin...

Ha, I clearly waited too long to read Book 3. I now have Book 4 and look forward to talking to you about it soon! :D

From:

brainwane

I am so glad you are having fun reading these!

I read all 4 of the books and had a bad experience because, instead of finishing the series out of joy and curiosity, I was (only partly subconsciously) finishing it out of a sense of obligation and insecurity, like, "there are SMART PEOPLE saying that these are IMPORTANT and AMAZING so if I don't like/get them then I am not one of the SMART PEOPLE". And that's just poisonous. So I am so happy to know that you are having a rollicking time!

From:

cahn

Oh I'm sorry to hear that! That you had a bad experience, I mean, not that you didn't like them, because I think they are the kind of book that appeals only to a particular kind of audience. And I don't mean smart people! There are tons of extremely intelligent people, some much smarter than I am (including some people whose book tastes mostly overlap with mine) that I would never rec this to.

I think people who like this book tend to be really into super-detailed worldbuilding and being confused a lot (no really -- the writer it keeps reminding me of is John M. Ford, where I would read the book and then be like "ummmm what just happened?" and he was one of my favorite authors as a teenager, so idk, I might just be a masochist?). And for me in particular I don't think I would have gotten through even the first book if I hadn't just had a crash course in the Enlightenment, so there has also been a lot of getting to see Enlightenment ideas/meta-ideas that she's working out in the text -- and that's hardly something that's going to be true for most people :) (And wasn't true for me the first time I started TLTL and hated it!)