Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 48

[cahn]

Some awesome historical RPF candyheartsex stories for meeeeee (or by me, in one tiny case) with historical characters! I'm just going to note whom the stories are about here. They are all so good!!

Anne Boleyn/Catherine of Aragorn
Frances Howard and Frances Coke (or: James I's court was basically a HOTBED of scandal, omg)

And two that are also historical RPF but also consistent with the Jude Morgan novel The King's Touch, which is an excellent historical novel narrated by James ("Jemmy") Scott, Duke of Monmouth, Charles II's illegitimate son.

Princess Henrietta of England (Charles II's sister and wife of Philippe I duc d'Orleans)
James of Monmouth/William/Mary

Comments

Re: He, too, is Alexander?

[cahn]

Gosh, I know about as much about Alexander as I did about Fritz before salon started, so, uh, I am admiring the virtuosity of the two of you without being able to say anything except that this is great, please continue, tell me more :D

Things I want to know more about!

-Philip assassination conspiracy!

-Olympias! She sounds pretty fascinating.

-Demosthenes! (I know you said you didn't have time. Maybe selenak will take up the mantle. :) ) Also: why secret correspondence with Demosthenes would be high treason. (Though I guess you sketch it out.)

this man too is Alexander.

I did not know this, thank you!

Olympias

[selenak]

I will try later today to fill in some blanks, but for now, there's a fantastic Yuletide story about Olympias from kangeiko written a few years back which uses Olympias' famous claim that Zeus, not Philip, was Alexander's bio dad for this masterpiece.

Re: Olympias

[cahn]

Wow, that is a great story, thank you for linking!

Re: He, too, is Alexander?

[selenak]

Okay, the big problem with anything Alexander related is that the original sources for his era don't exist anymore. We know they did, because for example the memoirs of Ptolemy Soter, a childhood buddy of his who was one of his generals and made it all the way to founder of the last Pharaonic dynasty in Egypt, are referenced by later sources, but the memoirs themselves, like any other eye witness accounts, don't exist anymore. So you have (centuries) later historians like Arrian or Curtius and of course Plutarch, which is like if all we had about Fritz & Co. were 20th century era biographies and no original sources at all. Which is why there are wildly different interpretations and theories about most aspects of Alexander's life.

Assassination of Philip II: Official explanation was "disgruntled bodyguard", and "disgruntled" is putting it mildly. The guy in question, Pausanias of Orestis, supposedly had been raped by a third party, general Attalus, at a party which Philip had hosted, and Philip had not reprimanded Attalus or prevented the rape, ergo Pausanius developed a hate-on for Philip and murdered him, being slain himself shortly after while trying to flee the scene. One of the problems with this official explanation is that according to one of the ancient historians (himself, as mentioned, writing centuries later), there were eight years between the rape and the assassination. I mean, revenge is a dish best eaten cold and all, but this... Anyway, since Pausanias was killed so quickly after Philipp, no one could question him. And the killers just happened to be friends of Alexander. Alexander had Pausanias' corpse crucified in revenge (supposedly), then went on conquering the world, and as soon as he'd left the country, Olympias had Pausanias honorably buried and erected a monument in his honor. You can see why this got some people assuming she might have been involved. (In addition to the fact she and Philip had been feuding for years at this point.) Now, it's just as possible that Diodor got the dates wrong and Pausanias did act on a personal hatred, of course young Macedonians, seeing a guy kill their monarch, would attack and if possible kill him, and Olympias was simply grateful. But conspiracy theorists had fun ever since.

Olympias, summarized by Wikipedia. One of four names she had, as Kangeiko's story might have told you. Bad news for her many enemies. Lethally so. (Accepting that any woman who wants and for a good long while keeps power has a terrible press among the ancients.) The man who eventually, years after Alexander's death, ordered his soldiers to kill her found out the soldiers were unwilling to do so, despite Olympias having only two servants with her at this point, but he got around that problem by letting the families of her earlier victims stone her to death. Supposedly she met her end bravely.

Demosthenes: supposedly one of the best orators ever. (So says Cicero, who is something of an authority on the matter and modelled his anti- Mark Antony speeches on Demosthenes' anti Philipp II speeches, hence "Philipica". Was convinced Philip was the worst (and extended that estimation later to Alexander, as Demosthenes outlived Philip; he would eventually commit suicide in order to avoid being killed by Alexander's successor regent in Macedon, Antipater). Depending on your pov, he was either an Athenian patriot desperate to save his city's freedom and independence from the Macedon menace, or a polemicist and snob who was only good at trash talking. There are also stories about him and his wife having sex with the same boy, but then that might be slander by Alexander fans to blacken his name.

Books: the novelist Mary Renault wrote the most popular novels about AtG, "Fire from Heaven", starring child, teenage and young adult Alex, and "The Persian Boy" (the rest of his life); thereby also creating a shipping war between Alexander/Hephaistion and Alexander/Bagoas shippers, Bagoas being the Persian boy in question, a eunuch who was probably the sole person to have had sex with Darius, the Persian king defeated, and Alexander both, though on different occasions, naturally. Mary Renault is a good writer, but she had spectacular mother issues (with good reason) and a mighty crush on Alexander, and both factors are apparant in those books. (Expect monstrous Olympias and AtG who is innocent of all wrongdoings.) She also wrote a third book, "Funeral Games", but no one likes that one.

Otoh: Jo Graham's Stolen Fire is one of my favourite novels and also set directly after AtG's death, with flashbacks to earlier times. Its hero, Lydias, one of AtG's soldiers, is mourning for his wife and child (also for Hephaistion, because Lydias while everyone else was crushing on Alex was crushing on Hephaistion) when the novel starts but rebuilds himself a new life which is one of my favourite fictional buttons if well pushed, becomes involved in Ptolemy's kidnapping of AtG's corpse to Egypt, and ends up with Bagoas the Eunuch, thus proving shipping wars can end happily ever after, too. Also: Jo Graham doesn't burden her characters with mother issues.

Re: He, too, is Alexander?

[mildred_of_midgard]

She also wrote a third book, "Funeral Games", but no one likes that one.

Wrong! ;) Or at least my college self did; I couldn't bring myself to reread Renault in later years.

Mary Renault

[selenak]

LOL; go figure. Re: Mary Renault as a writer - the well loved book of hers especially by migratory slash fandom I didn't love was The Charioteer, though I had immense fun discussing it with other readers at the Renault book club naraht hosted, ditto for her less known and loved then contemporary novel Return to Night. The first of her Ancient World novels I read was actually the sole one without many m/m, or rather the two, The King must die, and THe Bull from the Sea, her Theseus duology, and I remember being captivated by those, though I haven't reread them since my teenage days. I liked The Persian Boy better than you did, Mildred, but then my problem with her Alexander novels was that I never quite bought her Alexander, and since he's the central character... Anyway, in general, I find her in equal parts interesting, gifted and infuriating as a writer. Incredibly influential, too, on a great many later writers (including Richard Adams in Watership Down, of all the books, and he acknowledges it with a direct quote, too), and fascinating as an example of being herself influenced by Tolkien (she was one of his students at Oxford) but going into a direction with it he'd never have done. After reading a biography about her, I understood where all the ghastly mothers were coming from, and found her interesting and frustrating as a person, too, not just as a writer. And I very much enjoyed writing my RPF story in which she clashes with the equally gifted and infuriating Alfred Hitchcock, Saving Mrs Fleming, and thereafter couldn't help but feeling just the teensiest bit protective about her, which is absurd.

Re: Mary Renault

[cahn]

I read The King Must Die quite a few years ago (I think I must have been in my 20's), which I thought was absolutely brilliant but wasn't able to get the second book for some reason and never did read any more Renault. I suppose I should remedy that... I haven't reread King, either, so I don't know how it holds up.

After reading a biography about her, I understood where all the ghastly mothers were coming from

Ha. It does seem like sometimes (not always, but sometimes) it's pretty clear from an author's works...

Re: He, too, is Alexander?

[cahn]

Thank you as always! :)

which is like if all we had about Fritz & Co. were 20th century era biographies and no original sources at all.

...I must say I'm now thinking if what we had about Fritz was Nancy Goldstone writing about him, and shuddering :PPPP

Anyway, since Pausanias was killed so quickly after Philipp, no one could question him. And the killers just happened to be friends of Alexander. Alexander had Pausanias' corpse crucified in revenge (supposedly), then went on conquering the world, and as soon as he'd left the country, Olympias had Pausanias honorably buried and erected a monument in his honor. You can see why this got some people assuming she might have been involved.

Yeeeeah, okay, I see!

Olympias sounds fascinating! (As is the Yuletide story about her.)