:D Asking questions in salon is the best because I get such great answers back! :D
for example: I think it's crystal clear even before he says so that Charles II wasn't married to Jemmy's mother Lucy, and that Jemmy is grasping at straws and kididng himself because he wants it desperately to be true that his parents were married
Heh, yeah, it was pretty clear that Jemmy really wanted that to be true!
Again, it's possible, because William is described as clever and the kind of long term thinker Jemmy is not, but otoh I also think we're meant to believe his affection for Jemmy is genuine.
*nods* Harriet doesn't go so far as to accuse William of applying any pressure on Jemmy, either, just that William didn't hamper them -- and yes, she very much comes across as biased and (understandably) emotional, so it is entirely believable that she is herself grasping at straws and William was just like, "okay, look, if this is what he really wants, I'm not going to get in his way."
In any case, for an AU where they remain allies and Jemmy doesn't die, the impression I had from the biography it just needed two factors to change - Jemmy does not listen to the pressure from Ferguson & Co., and also, William continues to not kick him out somewhat longer.
So on one hand this makes me happy (this AU is a possibility!), and on the other hand it makes me sad (was it so close?? They could all have been allies and not die??)
(In rl, Jemmy wasn't in the Hague when Charles died, he was in Brussels, i.e. the Spanish Netherlands, where he got kicked out at once following the demand by James II, but he then returned to Holland and William did let him stay there for a while.
Ah, okay. And in tKT William does let him stay in Holland as long as he's not William's Special Guest. But I can see how it is more dramatically fulfilling to have him right there so he and William can talk!
I.e. the way Anna Keay tells it, if Jemmy doesn't listen to any pressure from England and, say, makes a public oath of loyalty that he respects the succession rights OF WILLIAM AND MARY (this wouldn't exclude a later joint action against James II altogether, but otoh right now is not treacherous even for a James II follower, since William and Mary are his legal heirs), chances are William and Mary would keep him against James II's objection and gamble on James II not going to war over his nephew. (The moment James II has a Catholic sons, all conditions change, of course.)
YES. You know this means I am going for the threesome AU as my headcanon now! With maybe bonus loyalty kink! :D
Now, in this AU, once James II has a Catholic son and William and Mary decide they need to invade... I guess this is where it becomes even more important that Jemmy took the oath to William and Mary. So he can tell anyone who is trying to use him as the focus of revolution that he can't because of his oath. In this AU is he part of the Glorious Revolution and they all live happily ever after?
YES. You know this means I am going for the threesome AU as my headcanon now! With maybe bonus loyalty kink! :D
Naturally!
Now, in this AU, once James II has a Catholic son and William and Mary decide they need to invade... I guess this is where it becomes even more important that Jemmy took the oath to William and Mary. So he can tell anyone who is trying to use him as the focus of revolution that he can't because of his oath. In this AU is he part of the Glorious Revolution and they all live happily ever after?
I don't see why not? Incidentally, I see the University doesn't just have papers re: the 1745, but also of William's successful invasion of England and the Glorious Revolution, and not just anyone's, but those of the older of William's two bffs, Jan Willem Bentinck who ends up as William Bentinck, first Earl of Portland, here. (Btw, if his family name sounds vaguely familiar, I think it was one of his sons who was the disliked husband of the Countess Bentinck who shows up in Lehndorff's diaries (she of the "Mission: Seduce Heinrich!" fame) and was fangirled by teenage Sophie for riding astride like am and being generally cool.
Anyway, the Nottingham University doesn't just have the papers re: the Glorious Revolution, but also a timeline, listing of events leading up to this and most important players etc., in case you feel ever inclined to write a bit of a longer AU where Jemmy lives and gets to assist Mary in breaking the fifth commandment by deposing her Dad.
BTW: both Mary and Anne were seen as basically Goneril and Regan by the Jacobites for this, but as "The King's Touch" has Mary say to Jemmy, if it had been up to her father, she and Anne would never have existed. Given how he treated their mother. (Reminder, he first got her pregnant and married her, then because the Restoration happened belatedly tried to weasel out of it by the really low method of making his mates claim they, too, had had sex with Anne Hyde and could totally be the Dad and that's why the marriage wasn't valid until Charles put his foot down and made James stick to his promises and stop trying to ruin his wife's reputation. The baby in question was a boy who died in infancy, btw, Mary and Anne didn't arrive until later, and as Morgan has Mary point out, never would have at all if James had had his way. Not to mention that a slutshamed (based on lies; I don't think many people believed James' buddies on that one) and divorced Anne Hyde would probably have spent the rest of her life shut up in a country mansion somewhere.
Ugh, yeah, The King's Touch definitely did sell me on Mary being not a Goneril but someone who wanted to love her dad but had a lot of reasons to believe he wasn't a good king or a good dad...
Re: William/Mary/James of Monmouth
Date: 2024-03-08 01:06 am (UTC)for example: I think it's crystal clear even before he says so that Charles II wasn't married to Jemmy's mother Lucy, and that Jemmy is grasping at straws and kididng himself because he wants it desperately to be true that his parents were married
Heh, yeah, it was pretty clear that Jemmy really wanted that to be true!
Again, it's possible, because William is described as clever and the kind of long term thinker Jemmy is not, but otoh I also think we're meant to believe his affection for Jemmy is genuine.
*nods* Harriet doesn't go so far as to accuse William of applying any pressure on Jemmy, either, just that William didn't hamper them -- and yes, she very much comes across as biased and (understandably) emotional, so it is entirely believable that she is herself grasping at straws and William was just like, "okay, look, if this is what he really wants, I'm not going to get in his way."
In any case, for an AU where they remain allies and Jemmy doesn't die, the impression I had from the biography it just needed two factors to change - Jemmy does not listen to the pressure from Ferguson & Co., and also, William continues to not kick him out somewhat longer.
So on one hand this makes me happy (this AU is a possibility!), and on the other hand it makes me sad (was it so close?? They could all have been allies and not die??)
(In rl, Jemmy wasn't in the Hague when Charles died, he was in Brussels, i.e. the Spanish Netherlands, where he got kicked out at once following the demand by James II, but he then returned to Holland and William did let him stay there for a while.
Ah, okay. And in tKT William does let him stay in Holland as long as he's not William's Special Guest. But I can see how it is more dramatically fulfilling to have him right there so he and William can talk!
I.e. the way Anna Keay tells it, if Jemmy doesn't listen to any pressure from England and, say, makes a public oath of loyalty that he respects the succession rights OF WILLIAM AND MARY (this wouldn't exclude a later joint action against James II altogether, but otoh right now is not treacherous even for a James II follower, since William and Mary are his legal heirs), chances are William and Mary would keep him against James II's objection and gamble on James II not going to war over his nephew. (The moment James II has a Catholic sons, all conditions change, of course.)
YES. You know this means I am going for the threesome AU as my headcanon now! With maybe bonus loyalty kink! :D
Now, in this AU, once James II has a Catholic son and William and Mary decide they need to invade... I guess this is where it becomes even more important that Jemmy took the oath to William and Mary. So he can tell anyone who is trying to use him as the focus of revolution that he can't because of his oath. In this AU is he part of the Glorious Revolution and they all live happily ever after?
Re: William/Mary/James of Monmouth
Date: 2024-03-08 05:12 pm (UTC)Naturally!
Now, in this AU, once James II has a Catholic son and William and Mary decide they need to invade... I guess this is where it becomes even more important that Jemmy took the oath to William and Mary. So he can tell anyone who is trying to use him as the focus of revolution that he can't because of his oath. In this AU is he part of the Glorious Revolution and they all live happily ever after?
I don't see why not? Incidentally, I see the University doesn't just have papers re: the 1745, but also of William's successful invasion of England and the Glorious Revolution, and not just anyone's, but those of the older of William's two bffs, Jan Willem Bentinck who ends up as William Bentinck, first Earl of Portland, here. (Btw, if his family name sounds vaguely familiar, I think it was one of his sons who was the disliked husband of the Countess Bentinck who shows up in Lehndorff's diaries (she of the "Mission: Seduce Heinrich!" fame) and was fangirled by teenage Sophie for riding astride like am and being generally cool.
Anyway, the Nottingham University doesn't just have the papers re: the Glorious Revolution, but also a timeline, listing of events leading up to this and most important players etc., in case you feel ever inclined to write a bit of a longer AU where Jemmy lives and gets to assist Mary in breaking the fifth commandment by deposing her Dad.
BTW: both Mary and Anne were seen as basically Goneril and Regan by the Jacobites for this, but as "The King's Touch" has Mary say to Jemmy, if it had been up to her father, she and Anne would never have existed. Given how he treated their mother. (Reminder, he first got her pregnant and married her, then because the Restoration happened belatedly tried to weasel out of it by the really low method of making his mates claim they, too, had had sex with Anne Hyde and could totally be the Dad and that's why the marriage wasn't valid until Charles put his foot down and made James stick to his promises and stop trying to ruin his wife's reputation. The baby in question was a boy who died in infancy, btw, Mary and Anne didn't arrive until later, and as Morgan has Mary point out, never would have at all if James had had his way. Not to mention that a slutshamed (based on lies; I don't think many people believed James' buddies on that one) and divorced Anne Hyde would probably have spent the rest of her life shut up in a country mansion somewhere.
Re: William/Mary/James of Monmouth
Date: 2024-03-14 04:48 am (UTC)Ugh, yeah, The King's Touch definitely did sell me on Mary being not a Goneril but someone who wanted to love her dad but had a lot of reasons to believe he wasn't a good king or a good dad...