cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 47

You're viewing

cahn's journal
Create a Dreamwidth Account Learn More

Reload page in style: site light

We haven't had a new post since before December 25, so obligatory Yuletide link to this hilarious story of Frederick the Great babysitting his bratty little brother, with bonus Fritz/Fredersdorf!

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

selenak

some of this I quoted to you before, but it's worth repeating and also is guaranteed non-fiction prove the three of them really were close enough to raise eyebrows:

(When Charles II is still alive):

William and Mary's treatment of the duke was mor ethan a piece of cold political positioning. Mary had grown up with Monmouth and had lived alongside him from her birth to her wedding day. Both Charles II and the Duke of York recognised that since William and Monmouth had fought together in 1678 they had become 'so good friends and agree so well together'. The 'fondness' Mary and William showed for Monmouth in 1684, and the 'caressesÄ he received that were 'the common discourse of all sorts of people' in The Hague, were the hproduct of personal as well as political dynamics. With Monmouth as guest the atmosphere in the Orange court started to grow noticiably brighter. Onlookers were surprised to see Mary - who never walked out - taking daily constitutionals in the mall with her cousin, while they were frankly amazed when William - who used his asthma as an excuse to avoid dancing - was to be found learning contredanses with Monmouth and Mary most evenings. When the English ambassador in The Hague reported that Monmouth was being treated by William and Mary 'as one of the family', it was not just a calibration of the formal honours allowed to him, but also an expression of the closeness between them all. (...)

It was a mark of the real warmth of Monmouth's treatment by his cousins that, though his wife was one of the princess's oldest friends, William and Mary received Harriet Wentworth publicly as his companion.

(BTW, Mary doing this makes me wonder whether the objection to Lady Dorchester was less the mistress status and more Lady Dorchester in particular?)

After Monmouth's final secret meeting with Charles II but before Charles' death:

The weather had turned cold and Mary persuaded William to let Monmouth take her skating on the frozen canals. There the duke gave a steadying arm to his normally cosseted cousin as she slipped and slid about in a short skating dress, causing prim onlookers to tut-tut with disapproval. There was general amazement that William was allowing his wife to consort so publically with this famous gallant - Monmoiuth was even being allowed to form a couple with Mary in after-dinner-dancing. But Monmouth's affection was purely fraternal and William did not flinch, such was the intimacy between the trio.

And of course there's the fact that after Monmouth's execution by her father, Mary still renembered him fondly:

Princess Mary of Orange, for her part, commissioned the physician James Welwood to pen a history of recent events. Welwood, who had come to know Monmouth during his last years, wrote about him at length. He was careful to stress he had read an dpartly transcribed Monmouth's diary and pocket boo, and that, 'there is nothing deliver'd concerning this Unfortunate Gentleman, but what I have unquestionable Grounds for'. His words were an epitaph for Mary, of the cousin and friend she remembered:

'Monmouith seem'd to be born for a better Fate; for the first part of his life was all Sunshine, through the rest was clouded. He was Brave, Generous, Affable, and extremely Handsome: Constant in his Friendships, just to his Word, and an utter enemy to all sorts of Cruelty. He was easy in his Nature, and fond of popular Applause which led him insensibly into all his Misfortunes; but whereever might be the hidden DEsigns of some working Heads he embark'd with, his own were noble, and chiefly aim'd at the Good of his Country.'

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Funnily enough, I betaed this for

cahn, and I copy-pasted her this paragraph from the bio of William III that I own (but have not read aside from occasional dipping into):

D'Avaux's account that Prince William went so far as to encourage a flirtation between Mary and Monmouth is so out of Mary's character – not to mention the Prince's – that we may discount it (p.225); similarly his account, which is often cited, of Mary’s ice skating with Monmouth, skating on alternative legs with her skirts drawn up (p.241). He did not always resist the temptation to present William and Mary in an unfavourable light to his masters in France.

Not my century, can't comment on plausibility one way or the other, just putting this out there.

From:

selenak

Pfff, this reminds me of my Aged Parent originally refusing to believe Fritz would do a couple of things he did because he said it was ooc for Fritz until I waved excerpts from Henckel von Donnersmark's wartime diary at him, and even then he had trouble. And there's always the "glorious" example of not only a bunch of 19th but even 20th century historians declaring it would have been ooc for such a pious Christian as FW to insist on Gundling's being buried in a barrel and to organize the entire burial the way he did and to write essay after essay of how this was an anti Prussian legend surely and ooc and what not when Stratemann's diplomatic dispatches had been published in the late 19th century already (including the one where he, who is an FW friendly source and can't possibly accused of anti FW bias, describes the entire affair in detail (plus the letters from the pastors which the Gundling biographer found).

Of course envoys are biased, we've often found them so. But historians and biographers can be equally biased and tempted to declare "this doesn't fit with my image of person X, therefore the contemporary source who says they absolutely did this must have made it up!"

From:

cahn

:D These are such lovely quotes! (And, again, I am delighted by the threesome :) Or even foursome!)

while they were frankly amazed when William - who used his asthma as an excuse to avoid dancing - was to be found learning contredanses with Monmouth and Mary most evenings.

I'm so happy to get history-canon documentation of this! :D

From:

selenak

Contredanses: must have been the raging new thing to boot (i.e. William isn't just ready to dance when he's usually not, but ready to dance the funky new dance), given that teen Heinrich and Sophie are still dancing them a few decades later during AW's wedding celebrations!

But yes, these are lovely quotes indeed, hence my wish to share them.

Edited Date: 2024-03-08 11:34 am (UTC)