Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 46

[cahn]

Background: The kids' school has a topic for "Unit" every trimester that a lot of their work (reading, writing, some math) revolves around. These topics range from time/geographic periods ('Colonial America') to geography ('Asia') to science ('Space') to social science ('Business and Economics'). (I have some issues with this way of doing things, but that's a whole separate post.) Anyway, for Reasons, they have had to come up with a new topic this year, and E's 7/8 class is doing "World Fairs" as their new topic.

Me: I know E's teacher is all about World Fairs and I know she is great and will do a good job. But I feel like if we had a different teacher who wasn't so into World Fairs, they wouldn't do such a good job and another topic would be better.
Me: Like... the Enlightenment!
D: Heh, you could teach that! But you'd have to restrain yourself from making everything about Frederick the Great.
Me: But that's the thing! Everyone does relate to each other in this time period! Voltaire -- and his partner Émilie du Châtelet, who was heavily involved in the discourse of conservation of energy and momentum -- well, I've told you Voltaire had a thing with Fritz -- and then there's Empress Maria Theresa, who went to war with him a few times -- and Catherine the Great --
D, meditatively: You know --
Me: *am innocently not warned even though this is the same tone of voice that is often followed by, say, a bad pun*
D: -- it's impressive how everyone from this 'the Great' family is so famous!
Me: *splutters*
D, thoughtfully: But of course there's probably selection bias, as the ones who aren't famous don't get mentioned. You never see 'Bob the Great' in the history books...
Me: *splutters more*

Comments

Chevalier d'Eon IV: Here at the end of all things

[mildred_of_midgard]

1783:

Chevalier d'Eon: Okay, now that the war's over, can I go to England? I have a lot of creditors there, and I need to straighten out my finances.

French ministers: No.

Mildred: Evidence that French nobility weren't allowed to travel abroad without permission either? It's not just you, Lehndorff!

1785:

Chevalier d'Eon: This is becoming critical! My creditors are about to sell the books and papers I left behind! Do you want my books and papers in the hands of the general public?

French ministers: FINE. I guess that would be the worst possible outcome here. Go.

Chevalier d'Eon: Sweet! I may have supported the Yankee tax dodgers against England, but the English political system is at least better than the stupid French one.

1789:

French revolution: *breaks out*

Chevalier d'Eon: Score! Now France will become more like England. I will write a letter to the National Assembly offering to help fight against Austria!

National Assembly: *laughter and applause when the letter is read aloud*

Some people: Yeah, let her come! She can be our new Joan of Arc!

1793:

French government: Okay, yeah, get her a fake passport so she can leave England and come here.

Chevalier d'Eon: Shit, I have no money! Even selling off all my books won't cover all my debts. I am forced to enter fencing tournaments for money, and become known as the world's best swordswoman. Even the Prince of Wales will watch me.

Chevalier d'Eon: Alas, the 1790s were not a good time for me: plagued by money problems, hitting my 70s, and getting injured and forced to discontinue fencing.

Kates: It's probably for the best you never made it to France. The Terror started shortly after you would have come, and you were nobility after all. "Someone with d'Eon's flair for the dramatic would have had difficulty maintaining a low profile."

Mildred: *choke*

Mildred: Understatement of the year!

1810:

Chevalier d'Eon: *dies, aged 81*

*********

So this was an interesting book. Despite the fact that the whole Joan of Arc treatment made me question everything about his credentials, the book is jam-packed with more information about the 18th century and the Chevalier's life than I could report here.

In particular, if you want to read the book, there's a ton on how 18th century society and intellectuals understood gender roles, and how that differed from the 19th century. There's also a lot on the Chevalier's intellectual and spiritual life, the books she read and what she wrote, her experience as a born-again Christian, and how both of those things led her to believe women were morally superior to men in a way that must have contributed to her desire to live life as one.

There's also a lot more on how famous figures interacted with her, what she thought of them, and what they thought of her, such as Voltaire, Rousseau, Benjamin Franklin, John Wilkes, and this entire ~dramatic~ episode with Beaumarchais. It's worth a read even if it's not the most rigorous history ever. cahn, you might like this one.

Oh, and final note from our 19th century Duc de Broglie, he is predictably not a fan of the Chevalier d'Eon and gets eyerolly at the whole "I'm a woman!" thing, and thinks of it as shenanigans that just made it harder for the Comte de Broglie to focus on important things, like the First Partition of Poland. (Note that the rumors about the Chevalier being a woman started in 1770, and the First Partition was playing out in 1771-1774, so these two events overlapped.)

Re: Chevalier d'Eon IV: Here at the end of all things

[selenak]

The Terror started shortly after you would have come, and you were nobility after all. "Someone with d'Eon's flair for the dramatic would have had difficulty maintaining a low profile."

Hey, maybe D'Eon and Prussian Trenck could have been beheaded together. Reminder to cahn that Trenck did get it into his head to visit Paris at just that time and promptly got executed, thus concluding his flamboyant life in dramatic style.

Re: Chevalier d'Eon IV: Here at the end of all things

[mildred_of_midgard]

Well, from the person who "produced fake authenticity letters to certify that forged documents were genuine," I would expect nothing less!

Re: Chevalier d'Eon IV: Here at the end of all things

[cahn]

"Someone with d'Eon's flair for the dramatic would have had difficulty maintaining a low profile."

Hee, yeah... definitely.

and this entire ~dramatic~ episode with Beaumarchais.

I gotta admit that after reading Proud Destiny, Beaumarchais does seem rather dramatic...

This was quite interesting, thank you!

Re: Chevalier d'Eon IV: Here at the end of all things

[luzula]

Very interesting, thanks!

This is another interesting case of gender reassignment in the 18th century, also in France. In short, it's about a woman who confessed to her priest that she loved and desired women, whereupon the priest decided that she must be a man. So he was instructed to live as a man henceforth, and married a woman. Later in life, one of his exes (from before he was married) accused him of being actually a woman (possibly motivated by a bad breakup?). A trial ensued, and after a genital examination the verdict was that they were a woman and must separate from their wife. (No idea what pronouns to use, heh.)

Re: Chevalier d'Eon IV: Here at the end of all things

[mildred_of_midgard]

Oh, wow, I did not know about that! Yeah, no idea what pronouns to use there. I default to "they" in cases where I don't know.

On a different (non-gender-related) note, are you familiar with Lady Grange? I'm going to try to do a write-up for salon on her story, but that presupposes I finish her biography, and I'm notoriously bad at finishing books...

Re: Chevalier d'Eon IV: Here at the end of all things

[luzula]

I have heard of Lady Grange, but I can't say I'm familiar with her, sorry! But I look forward to the write-up, if you make one. : )

Anne/Jean-Baptiste Grandjean

[cahn]

Wow! That's crazy. I read the transcript at your link and have so many questions that will never be answered. Did Grandjean mind being basically forcibly transitioned to be a man? WTF with the verdict that Grandjean was a woman but couldn't associate with other women?? Did that really get upheld? Poor Grandjean and Lambert!

On the bright side (I guess), it's kind of cool that when Grandjean transitioned, everyone seems to have been like "ok yeah sure" except for the vindictive ex.

Re: Anne/Jean-Baptiste Grandjean

[luzula]

WTF with the verdict that Grandjean was a woman but couldn't associate with other women??
I know, that one is so weird! Because it's not like women would usually spend their time socially with men (who weren't their family), so if she didn't have male family, that would mean she'd be quite lonely. If, that is, (s)he actually did what the verdict said...

Re: Anne/Jean-Baptiste Grandjean

[mildred_of_midgard]

It seems to me that it's the same reasoning as us (i.e., our society's justice system) keeping convicted pedophiles away from children. I mean, the main reason the podcast gives for her confessor making her wear male clothing was to keep her away from girls:

He told the young person that she could not remain any longer without crime in woman’s clothing, that this clothing gave her too easy access to girls of her age.

So the way I see it, the verdict of the appeal was just keeping that part of the confessor's original decision, which it apparently deemed the correct part.

Re: Anne/Jean-Baptiste Grandjean

[cahn]

I get the reasoning! It just seems like an absurdly cruel and unusual punishment when women are basically the only people she would be hanging out with in the normal way of things (or at least that's my understanding?). Like, it's not particularly a cruel or unusual punishment to keep a convicted pedophile away from children, because pedophiles can hang out with other people who aren't children.

I mean, maybe I missed something (a lot about this case did surprise me) and maybe men's society would welcome her even with a woman's name and clothing, in which case I guess that's more-or-less okay.