cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 45

Unfortunately, there was then at Berlin a King who pursued one policy only, who deceived his enemies, but not his servants, and who lied without scruple, but never without necessity.

(from The King's Secret - by Duke de Broglie, grand-nephew of the subject of the book, Comte de Broglie, and grandfather of the physicist) )

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From:

selenak

Endless marriage projects sound like a theme :P

LOL, well, James was SD's direct ancestor! (Bloodline: James - Elizabeth the Winter Queen - Sophie of Hannover - George I of England - SD).

and Mary for reasons still befuddling historians doesn't flee to France

Huh. Any guesses?

Sheer speculation:

- She thought that despite having claimed she was the true English Queen from age 16, the Royal Bro Code (Sister variation) would oblige Elizabeth to host and support her against her rebellious subjects

- She thought if she went to France, they might host her as a former Queen of France but she'd end her life as a genteel court ornament, as Catherine certainly wouldn't back an invasion force to take back the Scottish throne, whereas if she went over the border to England, she'd only have to stay there for a short while until the Scots loyal to her overthrew the rebel government and/or there was a mighty uprising of English Catholics in favour of their true Queen, inspired by her presence?

But as I said, that's sheer speculation on my part. Maybe Mary was just exhausted from imprisonment, stillbirth (of twins by Bothwell) and jail break and didn't really think straight, and it was as simple as that.

I knew about this, at least vaguely, because of the capital of the state where I grew up being named after him. I can't remember too well so take this with a grain of salt, but I'm pretty sure that I also came away with the impression that he was framed; in this case it might well have been romanticization given that you don't necessarily want to talk about how your capital city is named after a guilty guy, I guess. Certainly I don't remember any emphasis on him being guilty.

So, the two versions of how things went down with Raleigh:

Pro-Raleigh: 1) As mentioned, Robert Cecil and Henry Howard during the last years of Elizabeth's reign kept up a secret correspondance with James. During which they didn't just prepare James for his eventual government takeover after Elizabeth's death but prejudiced him against Raleigh. Why? Because Raleigh was a good looking guy and otherwise James would have fallen for him (Cecil) and because Raleigh was hardcore anti Spanish (being a primary privateer into plundering Spanish ships) and crypto Catholic Henry Howard was pro Spain and didn't want Raleigh as an influential voice warning James against the evil of making a peace treaty with Spain. Then, after James showed up in England to be crowned, they framed him as a leader of one of the three anti James conspiracies that happened (these were: the main plot, the by plot and the Gunpowder plot, the big difference being that the main plot and the by plot wanted James' cousin Arabella Stuart on the throne whereas the hardcore Catholic Gunpowder plot guys wanted child!Elizabeth (plus Catholoic regents) after they'd blown up Parliament and James and son Henry with it (little Charles was still in Scotland at the time). The plot Raleigh was supposed to have been one of the main conspirators of was the "Main Plot", no explosion planning involved, just a good old fashioned coup resulting in Arabella as Queen. The other main leader Cobham denounced Raleigh, according to the pro Raleigh version after immense pressure and changing his testimony, Raleigh got condemned but James commuted his sentence to imprisonment in the Tower for the next decade plus, wherein Raleigh did have comfortable lodgings, regular visits from his wife (another kid was sired and born during that time) (and kept up a lively correspondence with young Henry of Wales who adopted him as a kind of mentor, but was stuck until James gave in to his petitions and released him to lead a fleet to the New World to find El Dorado (remember, that was a still a thing at the time), but with the strict and written order to not engage with and plunder any Spanish ships (because of the peace treaty). Raleigh sailed to the New World, of course didn't find El Dorado, and his second-in-command and cousin took out his frustrations by sacking some Spanish war ships. Raleigh did not know this until it was done and immediately could see this as the disaster it was, and confined the guy who in remorse committed suicide, but it was too late. As soon as the news of this treaty breaking reached Europe even before Raleigh's fleet did, Gondomar, as a Spanish envoy would, went to James and demanded that this outrage and treaty breaking was to answered by the reinstatement of Raleigh's original death sentence. James meekly caved and had the national Protestant hero executed. As Raleigh's pal young Prince Henry was dead by then, there was no one who could have saved him. Raleigh died bravely, with a quip ("Just get on with it") to the executioner.

2.) On the podcasts: Raleigh got into the Main plot presumably because he thought Queen Arabella would be better for him than King James. When the By Plot was uncovered (the first of the three plots which was), he got cold feet and actually denounced Cobham before Cobham denounced him. James didn't want to start his reign by executing National Elizabethan Hero Sir Walter Raleigh, plus Raleigh had helped uncovering the Main Plot by denouncing Cobham first, so he commuted his sentence to genteel imprisonment in the Tower, which Raleigh had already experience with because back in the day when he'd married Elizabeth's lady in waiting Bess Throckmorton, Elizabeth had put him and Bess into the Tower for a short while, too. Raleigh may or may not have had anything to do with his second in command plundering those Spanish ships, though there were some testimonies on his second trial from gentleman who swore they heard him say he looked forward to going up against the Spaniards again after his release from the Tower, but he was the overall commander, he did have explicit written orders not to do that, he was on parole anyway, and if James hadn't executed him at this point he would have ruined his own believability as King. Yes, Gondomar protested and demanded said execution once he got the news - as any envoy of a country to whom this happened worth his salt would - , but even if he hadn't, James would have done it. Two strikes and you're out, so to speak, and he'd been lenient to Raleigh the first time around anyway.

From:

cahn

Because Raleigh was a good looking guy and otherwise James would have fallen for him (Cecil)

Wait, was Raleigh bi? This is another bit that we never learned in school!

which Raleigh had already experience with because back in the day when he'd married Elizabeth's lady in waiting Bess Throckmorton, Elizabeth had put him and Bess into the Tower for a short while, too.

Oh, yeah, I did know about this (it being gossipy :) )

I don't remember at all what I knew about Raleigh's death, though! Surely I must have known something, but none of that sounds familiar, so maybe I didn't, hm.

but even if he hadn't, James would have done it. Two strikes and you're out, so to speak, and he'd been lenient to Raleigh the first time around anyway.

I mean... this sounds extremely plausible :P

From:

selenak

Wait, was Raleigh bi?

Not that I've heard. The point in this version of the story aren't his own intentions - especially since he's the good guy in this version - but that Robert Cecil, handicapped himself (i.e. a hunchback as the expression went), saw in handsome Raleigh (who'd been dashing and charming enough to impress Elizabeth, after all) someone who could be competition once James came to England and thus badmouthed him in advance in his secret letters.

BTW, as far as I recall, this story hails from Raleigh's younger son's defensive biography of his father, written many decades later, not from any actual letters, by Cecil or otherwise. But it's the story which shows up in historical fiction. Anyway, I checked, and it seems a Virginia website gives a good overview of his life and death.