cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 45

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Unfortunately, there was then at Berlin a King who pursued one policy only, who deceived his enemies, but not his servants, and who lied without scruple, but never without necessity.

(from The King's Secret - by Duke de Broglie, grand-nephew of the subject of the book, Comte de Broglie, and grandfather of the physicist) )

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From:

mildred_of_midgard

Holy cow, this is amazing. See, I knew there was good gossip about James VI/I and his favorites, but I don't know many details. So thank you for adding to my trove of details!

Earl of Essex: I am not impotent!!!!!! In fact, I walk around showing everyone who doesn't run away in time how I can get an erection! (Yes, really.)

OMG. I really need to know exactly how this is phrased in the primary source(s).

James I and VI: You're now the new envoy to Moscow, Overbury. (We live pre Peter the Great, which is why St. Petersburg doesn't exist yet.)

For

cahn:

James: dies 1625. Much of his reign is during Russia's "Time of Troubles", the anarchy and civil war that prevailed between the time when the Rurik dynasty (the family of Ivan the Terrible) died out in 1598, and when the first Romanov ascended in 1613.

St. Petersburg: founded 1703, after Peter the Great captured Swedish land near the start of the Great Northern War. Karl XII himself, after an initial victory against Peter at Narva, was busy invading Poland at the time, and made the mistake of thinking he could ignore Peter until he was done defeating August the Strong. BIG mistake. If he hadn't made that mistake, would Russia be the world power it is today?

Point is: I'm taking over as the undisputed favourite. Among the gazillion titles James gives me is of course "Duke of Buckingham". Speaking of titles, I sell those which means the English aristocracy goes from 80 plus title holders to ca. 160 when I die, and that's a big reason why the old aristocracy hates my guts.

I knew James gave him a million titles, I didn't know he used them to double the number of titles in the realm!

All this was very much not what either of my two big faves advised me to do, meaning like Heinrich, I had bad taste in men but my own political ideas.

Hee!

Selena: what I don't understand is why anyone bothered with poisoning Overbury AFTER he was already in the Tower. Wouldn't it have made sense to poison him when he was still at large and influential?

Yes, excellent question.

Also, in case you're wondering, he got poisoned through an enema. 'Yes, poison was literally pumped into his behind. If that doesn't smack of personal spite...

Oh, that is interesting. I am reminded of Edward II, who was allegedly killed with a red-hot poker up his anus (

cahn, he was gay and unpopular and his male favorites were hated, so this was supposed to be a way of humiliating him). But reports of that claim date to well after his death, and my understanding is that historians no longer believe this was anything but fake news made up much later.

So if we have actual, reliable, contemporary evidence to believe the guy was poisoned with an enema, from the confessions and what-not, that's wildly interesting to me!

Robert Devereux Earl of Essex: I just want everyone to know I WAS NOT IMPOTENT EXCEPT WITH FRANCES. Want to see my erection?

*dies*

So what he did wasn't going after the potential boytoy, oh no, he went straight for the potential new boytoy's sponsors, and had them in financial distress and banished from court in no time flat. After which, of course, the potential new boytoy was no longer interested in working for them

Clever man!

From:

selenak

Ha, I hoped you'd be as delighted as I was by this latest peace of sensationalistic gossip.

OMG. I really need to know exactly how this is phrased in the primary source(s).

You and me both, because I heard it in a podcast. However, I then googled and came across this detailed article on Frances which you might find useful, especially in terms of who confessed what.

I knew James gave him a million titles, I didn't know he used them to double the number of titles in the realm!

To be fair: the guy who started the idea of title selling as a way of solving the constant Stuart monarch problem of getting cash when your Parliament isn't willing to hand it over had been Robert Cecil (sone of Willliam), Earl of Salisbury, aka the most competent minister James ever had, but he was dead by then, and anyway he only sold "baronet" as a title. Whereas Buckingham went into business for himself as well as the King and didn't stick to "baronet" but went through the entire hierarchy, so naturally the old nobles went spare in their hate-on for that alone, in addition to the envy.

Re: Edward II, yes, I also had heard that the red poker story now is discounted.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

You and me both, because I heard it in a podcast. However, I then googled and came across this detailed article on Frances which you might find useful, especially in terms of who confessed what.

Thank you! I have bookmarked it for when my detective energies are not focused on 1768-1772. (My plan re The King's Secret, btw, since the boring part lasted for hundreds of pages, is to focus on reading up on 1768-1772 from a variety of perspectives and take notes, then to come back to Broglie's take on that period, then to do a series of write-ups for salon, including the Chevalier d'Eon, Broglie, and "things I, Mildred, have learned about 1768-1772.")

From:

cahn

Oh, that is interesting. I am reminded of Edward II, who was allegedly killed with a red-hot poker up his anus ([personal profile] cahn, he was gay and unpopular and his male favorites were hated, so this was supposed to be a way of humiliating him). But reports of that claim date to well after his death, and my understanding is that historians no longer believe this was anything but fake news made up much later.

Ah, interesting! And good to know that it was fake news :P