cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 42

Last post, we had (among other things) Danish kings and their favorites; Louis XIV and Philippe d'Orléans; reviews of a very shippy book about Katte, a bad Jacobite novel, and a great book about clothing; a fic about Émilie du Châtelet and Voltaire; and a review of a set of entertaining Youtube history videos about Frederick the Great.

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From:

selenak

1.) "Jack Ketch" - now this can't possibly be the same guy who got infamous when mangling all those executions of participants in Monmouth's rebellion way back in the previous century under James II, so I assume at this point, "Jack Ketch" had already become a common nickname for any executioner.

2.) "Delivered his speech to the Sheriffs without saying a word" - I take it this means he had it written out and handed it over to the Sheriffs as opposed to delivering it himself. Makes sense that people would do it, not being sure whether they'd have the composure.

3.) The story of an order to kill all the English prisoners - looks like someone needs to justify the order to kill all the Scots?

4.) These noble men being able to agree upon a sign THEY are to give the executioner is something I don't recall not just from Tudor era executions (of the noblity, that is, poor commoners certainly couldn't at any time) but, again from the late Stuart era executions under James II. Was this an 18th century innovation?

5.) Not being into the Jacobite rebellions, I have no idea whether Lords Kilmarnock and Balmerino were big deals or hangers-on. Do tell.

From:

luzula

Thanks for writing that up! I'd read about their execution in other sources, for example, you can read Balmerino’s speech, and various accounts of their death in The Lyon in Mourning. Of course, it glosses over Kilmarnock, since he didn't die a defiant Jacobite death.

Balmerino had been a Jacobite all his life, and commanded a troop of horse which attended BPC personally at Culloden. So it makes sense that he would die like he did--if you look at the speeches of executed Jacobites in The Lyon in Mourning, there are a lot of common elements: They don't repent of what they did, they emphasize that they didn't do it for personal gain, they talk about how great BPC and King James are, they state that they are proud (but unworthy) members of their church, and they forgive their enemies.

Kilmarnock, OTOH, was not actually a Jacobite. He was just heavily in debt and desperate. After having surrendered, he told the Duke of Argyll: "For the two kings and their rights, I cared not a farthing which prevailed, but I was starving, and, by God, if Mahommed had set up his standard in the Highlands I had been a good Musulman for bread, and stuck close to the party, for I must eat." Awww.

As to the Hanoverians claiming that the Jacobites had orders to give no quarter, I have never seen any historian who regards that claim as true. For one thing, it would have been very out of character, since the Jacobites took pains to prove that they were to be regarded as a legitimate fighting force that followed all the conventions of war. According to Duffy, a copy of Lord George's brief fighting instructions had come into Cumberland's possession the day before the battle, and he inserted the words ‘to give no quarters to the Elector’s troops on any account whatsoever’ and had it copied and distributed among his own troops (obviously to make them disinclined to offer any mercy to their enemies). Duffy says that the original of these fighting instructions is in the Royal Archives, and that the insertion of those words is clearly visible in different handwriting from the rest.

From:

selenak

Ah, thank you for providing the biographical background! Incidentally, can I bother you to check whether any of your Jacobite sources mention Molly Lepell/Lady Hervey; since some of her kids were so upset about the Jacobite loyalties, I'm curious as to how the actual Jacobites saw her, if they did.

From:

luzula

I think I can say right off that I've never come across her in any of my Jacobite reading!

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Thank you for the link to The Lyon in Mourning! If memory serves I had come across it but never read it.

I publickly profess that I heartily repent of all my sins, but am so far from reckoning the fact for which I am to die one of them that I think I shall thereby be an honour to my family, and if I had ten thousand lives would chearfully and willingly lay them down in the same cause.

Aha, I am seeing a trope here! So either Katte said it *because* it was a trope, or else people who didn't know or remember exactly what he said filled it in using tropes.

Judging by this list of the variants, the *most* reliable seeming one is the anonymous reporter's (possibly Müller): "Point de pardon, mon prince; je meurs avec mille plaisirs pour vous." Which contains neither a sweet prince nor a thousand (or even ten) lives.

The "sweet prince" and the "thousand lives" are from some of our most unreliable sources, so I bet they're filling in.

The "ten lives" is from Danish envoy von Johnn's report (later copied by the pamphlet), which is generally close to the most reliable accounts, those of the people officially in charge of Katte's execution, but I wouldn't be surprised if Katte's last words were not exactly retained verbatim, and some trope-filling in was done as the story made its way to Johnn.

Of course, Müller may not have remembered verbatim either! We may not have anything like an exact phrasing at all: just the general outline that he loved Fritz and didn't blame him.

"For the two kings and their rights, I cared not a farthing which prevailed, but I was starving, and, by God, if Mahommed had set up his standard in the Highlands I had been a good Musulman for bread, and stuck close to the party, for I must eat."

Oh, he's *that* guy! Thank you for supplying the detail. (Observe my continued self-control in resisting the temptation to research this myself.)

For one thing, it would have been very out of character, since the Jacobites took pains to prove that they were to be regarded as a legitimate fighting force that followed all the conventions of war.

Indeed.

Duffy says that the original of these fighting instructions is in the Royal Archives, and that the insertion of those words is clearly visible in different handwriting from the rest.

If I ever knew that, I had forgotten, so thank you again!

From:

cahn

Yes, thank you for this context! Gosh, poor Kilmarnock.

"For the two kings and their rights, I cared not a farthing which prevailed, but I was starving, and, by God, if Mahommed had set up his standard in the Highlands I had been a good Musulman for bread, and stuck close to the party, for I must eat."

Aw, poor guy :(

From:

mildred_of_midgard

"Jack Ketch" - now this can't possibly be the same guy who got infamous when mangling all those executions of participants in Monmouth's rebellion way back in the previous century under James II, so I assume at this point, "Jack Ketch" had already become a common nickname for any executioner.

Exactly what I made a mental note to say, and then I saw you had beaten me to it!

4.) These noble men being able to agree upon a sign THEY are to give the executioner is something I don't recall not just from Tudor era executions (of the noblity, that is, poor commoners certainly couldn't at any time) but, again from the late Stuart era executions under James II. Was this an 18th century innovation?

Maybe? I'm not thinking of specific examples, but it feels familiar, so I'm thinking I've probably come across the practice before.

5.) Not being into the Jacobite rebellions, I have no idea whether Lords Kilmarnock and Balmerino were big deals or hangers-on. Do tell.

I definitely remembered the names over all these years, but no details, so I was waiting for

luzula to weigh in.