cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 42

Last post, we had (among other things) Danish kings and their favorites; Louis XIV and Philippe d'Orléans; reviews of a very shippy book about Katte, a bad Jacobite novel, and a great book about clothing; a fic about Émilie du Châtelet and Voltaire; and a review of a set of entertaining Youtube history videos about Frederick the Great.

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From:

mildred_of_midgard

As chance would have it, Elisabeth Badinter wrote another MT book, this one specifically about MT's relationship with her children

I found this one today! Good to know Stollberg-Rilinger gives it the thumbs-down.

I've been really wishing I had another book on the upbringing of Ferdinand of Parma, because right now, I'm just reporting what Badinter says, and you had already advised me to beware of her. :/

So you ssee what I mean about the art revolution in an age of revolutions

That is definitely a difference! And yeah, very interesting that she said yes to it.

As for physical punishment being the norm of the era, I would like to point out that Luise Henriette, mother of F1, explicitly was against this (and against shouting) and argued for "douceur" to be used instead, almost a century earlier, even.

I know, I was thinking of her specifically! It wasn't *everyone*, though of course it was more common then than now...and even contemporaries thought FW was over-the-top! Seckendorff, whom you do not imagine would have been soft on his hypohetical kids, said Fritz looked like an old man at age 12 or whatever, from the regimen his father was putting him through.

From:

selenak

It wasn't *everyone*, though of course it was more common then than now...and even contemporaries thought FW was over-the-top! Seckendorff, whom you do not imagine would have been soft on his hypohetical kids, said Fritz looked like an old man at age 12 or whatever, from the regimen his father was putting him through.

Absolutely. (BTW, the way Jochen Klepper in his FW centric novel spins this is saying that it's not FW's regiment as such that exhausts Fritz so much, it's the fact that in his supposed spare time, his mother - who is the big villain of the novel, remember - makes him learn and do all the courtier stuff, which FW is unaware of, with the result there's no free time at all and Fritz looks like an old man at age 12, but it's SD's fault, not FW's. Now you can do this in a novel, which doesn't claim to be a non-fictional biography, but were it a biography, I would point out that once Fritz - and all the other sons - left female custody at age 7 and were handed over to male governors, their entire schedule was planned by FW, and the governors reported to FW.) FW: NOT a normal German Hausvater. No matter how many later historians claim the opposite.

ETA: Forgot in the earlier comment: Maria Luisa as Empress of Austria is certainly fodder for thought. She must have had an iron constitution (14 pregnancies, lots of lovers), so likely she would not have died young, she would not have been intimidated by Joseph’s Isabella issues (not knowing what her relationship with her older sister was, I can’t say whether Joseph’s grief for her would have formed a bond or would have been another reason for a bad relationship as it was with poor Josepha of Bavaria), and she would have had the ego not to be intimidated by MT and the other Habsburgs, either. Whether or not Joseph would have consumated the marriage, she’d have taken lovers, and probably would have gotten pregnant. (According to her confessor, not one of her children were her husband’s in rl, but then the very fact the confessor breached the confessional makes him less than trustworthy.) Which would have been… interesting. Does Joseph put up with it in the interest of not having sex but wanting an heir related to Isabella? Does he think Leopold’s kid should be his heir because Habsburg blood? Does Leopold pull a Heinrich and Ferdinand and declare he’s not willing to stand back in favour of a bastard? Enquiring minds want to know…

Edited Date: 2023-03-17 10:22 am (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

it's the fact that in his supposed spare time, his mother - who is the big villain of the novel, remember - makes him learn and do all the courtier stuff

You know, I'm willing to believe the stress of being caught in the crossfire of the marital warfare *also* contributed to Fritz looking exhausted by contemporary standards, but yeah, no, that doesn't make SD solely responsible here. Also, wow the patriarchy: both parents give him work to do, but the father's entitled to and the mother isn't, so it's her fault if he's tired. Right.

Does Joseph put up with it in the interest of not having sex but wanting an heir related to Isabella? Does he think Leopold’s kid should be his heir because Habsburg blood?

Ooh, that is interesting. I haven't read more than a couple hundred pages of selections from Beales (yet! one day!), so you're in a better position to say than I am.

Leopold, given his feelings about Joseph, yeah, probably does what Gustav's siblings did in Sweden and causes a scandal about the royal bastard.*

Things would get interesting in Vienna!

Even more so if Leopold causes the scandal while MT is still alive, parallel to Stockholm, or, as you called it, "the Dallas of Rokoko Scandinavia." Actually, never mind what would Joseph and Leopold do--if Maria Luisa is married to Joseph for the 15 years or so while MT is alive, and she's sleeping around all over the place, how does Mrs. Chastity Commission take it? Does ML get actually confined to house arrest? The Dallas plot thickens!

* Btw, I couldn't remember what the deal was with Heinrich and Ferdinand, and searching through salon history traced it back to an Asprey claim that you were dubious about.

mildred_of_midgard: Per Asprey, the reason a sympathetic Fritz finally came down on EC2's affairs was because:

"Princes Henry and Ferdinand -- second and third in line to the throne -- informed the king that they would never allow a bastard to take away their legitimate rights to succession. The king was forced to arrange a divorce."

selenak: What makes me hesitate a bit re: Asprey's interpretation is that I don't think Fritz would have avoided blaming Heinrich (and Ferdinand) for this situation if they actually had put such an ultimatum to him, and I don't recall any fuming Fritz letters on that note. And of course, if both Heinrich and Ferdinand knew Elisabeth had affairs to match future FW2's, a lot of other people knew as well, since Heinrich was hardly hanging out with the young ones enough to be finely tuned to discreet gossip.

But that was 2 years ago, do you remember if we came up with more evidence in favor of this episode? It often happens that we're skeptical or outright disbelieving, and then more evidence turns up!

From:

selenak

Oh, I'm still sceptical for those reasons, BUT otoh, I don't have another explanation for that Lehndorff remark in his volume 4 entries when Heinrich tells him about having read the late Czarevich Paul's wife's mail after her death - remember, she was the sister of the second Mrs. FW2 - and finding Mrs. FW2 talks really badly of him (she was a Mina partisan and thought Heinrich was horrid, which, fair from a Mina pov), is somewhat irritated because "she owed her current happiness" (i.e. being future Queen of Prussia, Mrs. FW2) to him, Heinrich. If that's NOT referring to making a fuss about accepting the first Mrs. FW2's bastard children ahead of himself in the succession, thus triggering the chain of events that leads to FW2 getting married to someone else, I don't now what else he could be talking about. At any event, as I said in a former discussion: the moral is don't read other people's letters, Heinrich!

Even more so if Leopold causes the scandal while MT is still alive, parallel to Stockholm, or, as you called it, "the Dallas of Rokoko Scandinavia." Actually, never mind what would Joseph and Leopold do--if Maria Luisa is married to Joseph for the 15 years or so while MT is alive, and she's sleeping around all over the place, how does Mrs. Chastity Commission take it? Does ML get actually confined to house arrest? The Dallas plot thickens!

So it does. Hmmmm. You know, on the one hand, Maria Luisa never faced someone as powerful and intimidating as MT in her actual life - which is how she came to call the shots in Spain - so in a scenario where as a young woman she's faced with MT as a mother-in-law, there's the chance she might have been discreet enough for MT not to get wise until after the first few "grandkids" are already born, and then there's the problem of saving international face, not to mention that Maria Luisa is a Bourbon and MT is inveested in the French/Austria alliance and doesn't want to jeaopordize Marie Antoinette's chances to become Queen of France.

On the other hand: MT has a strong sense of dynasty and definitely wants a grandkid of hers, not some strangers, to succeed. In addition to her disapproving of Maria Luisa sleeping around on a moral basis, I mean. Moreover, she has possibilities that are facesaving and still stop short of testing how much Louis XV cares about his granddaughter. She can, for example, make life hell for anyone Maria Luisa has an affair with by not promoting them and their families anymore and instead sending them to some backwater place in the most backward corner of her realms. In rl, Maria Luisa being the most powerful person at court certainly was a reason why despite losing whatever looks she started out with, she never lacked lovers. If instead even the suspicion of someone having an affair with her means depending on your social station, you end up in a poverty ridden backwater and/or as a prison guard, I dare say there won't be many volunteers.

Edited Date: 2023-03-19 03:12 pm (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

is somewhat irritated because "she owed her current happiness" (i.e. being future Queen of Prussia, Mrs. FW2) to him, Heinrich.

Ah, right, I'd forgotten about that too. There is too much to remember!

At any event, as I said in a former discussion: the moral is don't read other people's letters, Heinrich!

Hee!

If instead even the suspicion of someone having an affair with her means depending on your social station, you end up in a poverty ridden backwater and/or as a prison guard, I dare say there won't be many volunteers.

Very convincing conclusions. Though now I'm suspecting that MT and ML end up butting heads on a lot of issues in this AU.

From:

cahn

If instead even the suspicion of someone having an affair with her means depending on your social station, you end up in a poverty ridden backwater and/or as a prison guard, I dare say there won't be many volunteers.

I don't have much to say about this AU but I am enjoying it a LOT :D