cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 41

Now, thanks to interesting podcasts, including characters from German history as a whole and also Byzantine history! (More on this later.)

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From:

selenak

Apropos of nothing, someone really should write at least a story about poor Doris Ritter. As I said to Mildred once, she has a case of being the worst off in the aftermath of the escape attempt, despite not having been executed. Getting publically denounced as a whore by FW, whipped all over Potsdam and locked for three years in the workhouse plus getting completely ignored by Fritz thereafter (at least Peter Keith got a letter asking him to come back), with nothing in the way of acknowledging her life went to pieces because of him and his father - ugh. And she was sixteen years old when it happened. At least 28-years-old Katte died in the knowledge he was loved, was sympathized with by practically everyone at home and abroad, and his family got honored.

On to your glorious write up of this definitely queer-coded novel:

Katte the fatalist: it occurs to me that Der Vater by Jochen Klepper, which is practically contemporary a novel in every way (i.e. 1930s Germany, with presumably the same research material to both authors) also has this as Katte's defining trait, though he presents it as a fashionable attitude more than inner conviction. (Then again, Katte is a minor character in Der Vater, which is after all focused on FW and his entire life, so he doesn't get much page time, and thus "loves to strike a fatalistic pose" it is).

We get FW's violent outburst after walking in on Fritz's flute lesson. Fritz shoves Katte into a closet and locks him in, because "He can't find you". He can, apparently, find Quantz, because who cares about him anyway

LOL, but also, here I regret the author's choice of changed circumstance. I really liked the fact that in the version of the story as told by Quantz to Nicolai, Katte is the one who keeps his cool and organizes the hasty hiding in the closet, while Quantz is the one who panics. (This augurs well for authenticity - if Quantz had made up the story, surely he'd have made himself the hero?) Making Fritz the one protective one who thinks and acts in time and Katte the one in need of protection instead reminds me of the type of fanfiction which picks one part of the pairing to reduce to helpless woobiedom, no matter how practical that character is in canon. I suspect that since Fritz is future Federick the Great (tm), he gets to act instead of flail on that occasion, but I do begrudge it's on Katte's expense. And unlike Mildred and you, I'm not even particularly invested in Katte! It's just that one of the few traits that I could make out beyond the tragic death for love is him thinking and acting of someone else in a dire crisis, with the "hiding with Quantz in a closet" being the first occasion and him burning all those Wilhelmine-and-SD-incriminating letters the other one.

Keith comes to visit at some point, Katte is admittedly jealous.

This is hilarious, given Salon has established the fanon where Peter is the one who is hopelessly jealous. :)

I quite enjoyed (that may be the wrong word...) the depiction of Katte during his time in prison because the author truly wasn't afraid to show him as absolutely terrified.

I hear you. I mean, we know he had it together in the night before his death and on the occasion itself, but he was a human being. Of course he didn't want to die! And Mildred got on to the Danes in the first place because of that footnote saying according to the Danish envoy, Katte lost it when hearing his sentence for the first time, so there's even canon. (Also, I'm fond of the "the tyrant wants to see blood" statement as given to his Gens d'Armes comrade as proof that all the obedience-to-the-monarch utterings were made at least partly keeping Fritz and his family and the fact they all would have to deal with FW in mind, not because he thought FW had the right to kill him.)

Schack sneaks him a gun to give him an opportunity for suicide.

Anachronism alert, maybe? I mean, guns as a mean to suicide and one Prussian noble handing another one were normal in the 20th century - and much in von Brockdorf's present, see various 20th July 44 conspirators - , but I don't recall right now someone killing themselves in the first third of the 18th century that way, not least because guns aren't that reliable yet. I mean, this is also why duels are still mainly fought via swords.

Incidentally, I take it you're familiar with this bit from Heiner Müller (does include Katte's death and Gundling and the Scouring of Saxony and is basically the anti Küstrin-made-Frederick-Great, i.e. Küstrin-made-Frederick-Terrible?

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Making Fritz the one protective one who thinks and acts in time and Katte the one in need of protection instead reminds me of the type of fanfiction which picks one part of the pairing to reduce to helpless woobiedom, no matter how practical that character is in canon. I suspect that since Fritz is future Federick the Great (tm), he gets to act instead of flail on that occasion, but I do begrudge it's on Katte's expense.

I agree on all counts.

This is hilarious, given Salon has established the fanon where Peter is the one who is hopelessly jealous. :)

But Selena, that's only after Katte is solidly established as the romantic hero of the story! Keith came first, and I wouldn't be surprised if Katte did have some jealousy. Especially since we've tentatively come to the conclusion that Katte fell for Fritz before the reverse, contrary to most fictional takes.

And Mildred got on to the Danes in the first place because of that footnote saying according to the Danish envoy, Katte lost it when hearing his sentence for the first time, so there's even canon.

Sort of? I got onto the Danes because there was a Struensee bio by an author with good (easy) prose, and you had gotten me interested enough in Struensee with your summary that he'd been on my list for years.

But I do want that Lovenorn report; now that I have a copy of Hartmann with the footnote, I have observed that the Danish archives also allow you to place online orders. The problem is that they're like the British archives: high minimum up-front costs. The Prussians will just charge per page scanned. (That said, I placed another order with the Prussian archives in January and still haven't heard back with even a confirmation of receipt. In December, it only took them 6 days to confirm receipt! Maybe the beginning of the year everyone is busy, though if more than a month goes by, I might nudge them.)

Anachronism alert, maybe? I mean, guns as a mean to suicide and one Prussian noble handing another one were normal in the 20th century - and much in von Brockdorf's present, see various 20th July 44 conspirators - , but I don't recall right now someone killing themselves in the first third of the 18th century that way, not least because guns aren't that reliable yet.

I wouldn't call it an anachronism, not with Fritz threatening to kill himself with a pistol in early 1732. And suicidal hussar "the king's love could be deadly" Georgii is only about 10 years after Katte, though admittedly that's not the first third of the century.

From:

selenak

But Selena, that's only after Katte is solidly established as the romantic hero of the story! Keith came first, and I wouldn't be surprised if Katte did have some jealousy. Especially since we've tentatively come to the conclusion that Katte fell for Fritz before the reverse, contrary to most fictional takes.

You have a point. Mind you, seeing as Keith is sent off to the back of beyond, err, Wessel, at the end of January '30, and doesn't see Fritz again for the next decade, that leaves either of them only the end of 1729 for them to feel actually as rivals, given Katte doesn't get into Fritz' orbit until mid 1729 (or am I misrenembering?). Mind you, even before he becomes the romantic hero, Katte has the advantage of being older, wealthier, and just plain more experienced, plus he seems to have had that extravert/charm combination Fritz more often than not went for, but as you say, maybe the fact Peter K. is there first and as FW's page has far more opportunity to be together with Fritz caused some jealousy.

And suicidal hussar "the king's love could be deadly" Georgii is only about 10 years after Katte, though admittedly that's not the first third of the century.

How could I forget! Okay, I take it back, Katte could have totally committed suicide by gun if he'd wanted to (and had the gun).

From:

mildred_of_midgard

that leaves either of them only the end of 1729 for them to feel actually as rivals, given Katte doesn't get into Fritz' orbit until mid 1729 (or am I misrenembering?)

Yes, that is the timing, but remember, a close reading of Hinrichs led me to the conclusion that Katte was most likely into Fritz already in late 1729, and that is peak Peter years (when Fritz is only entrusting him with knowledge of the November 1729 escape attempt).

Katte has the advantage of being older, wealthier, and just plain more experienced, plus he seems to have had that extravert/charm combination Fritz more often than not went for, but as you say, maybe the fact Peter K. is there first and as FW's page has far more opportunity to be together with Fritz caused some jealousy.

Yes, and jealousy can totally be mutual! Keith could be jealous of all those traits of Katte's, and Katte could be jealous that Fritz pays more attention to Keith in the early days.

How could I forget!

It seems to me that, even if you'd forgotten the Fritz pistol threat (which I just saw was in Horowski too, when I was looking to see if Horowski had other examples of suicide by gun), you do have a certain familiarity with the Georgii story! ;) (Says the person who was like, "Ahlefeldt? I have never seen this name before! Certainly not in connection with being locked up for an affair involving a Danish royal.")

From:

selenak

Speaking of mutual jealousy, the horror dramolett thingie by Heiner Müller which I linked earlier has Wilhelmine and Fritz openly competing romantically for Katte. (Müller does have Fritz gay, no subtext.) This in turn reminded be that for all the invented Wilhelmine/Katte, not once have I read or seen a version where Wilhelmine and Katte are competing for Fritz. Which, you know, makes much more sense with canon. I mean, not exactly on Katte's part, but on Wilhelmine's. Given her resentment of the boyfriends in general and of Katte in particular and of most people she fears Fritz might love more is canon.

Incidentally, all this talk of jealousy made me wonder, not for the first time, how Katte would cope with all the other boyfriends in the AU where FW does not overturn the sentence, he's imprisoned and then freed. Unless one assumes in said AU Fritz isn't interested in Algarotti, is content with only exchanging fannish letters with Voltaire, is blind towards the occasional Georgii or Glasow, and most of all never gets together with Fredersdorf.