cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 41

Now, thanks to interesting podcasts, including characters from German history as a whole and also Byzantine history! (More on this later.)

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From:

cahn

whether or not Fritz would use the opportunity to have sex with Heinrich's boyfriend du jour, most likely Kaphengst (if the switch takes place in the later part of Fritz' reign with Heinrich at Rheinsberg), or whether he'd firmly decline, thereby arousing suspicion.

Given that being in Heinrich's body he probably has Heinrich's sex drive as well, I'm voting for yes. No WAY he wouldn't take the perfect opportunity to one-up Heinrich.

(Though I suppose it's possible you could sell me on Fritz potentially keeping all his sex hangups and therefore declining, or Heinrich making some clever move to prevent him.)

From:

selenak

Given that being in Heinrich's body he probably has Heinrich's sex drive as well, I'm voting for yes. No WAY he wouldn't take the perfect opportunity to one-up Heinrich.

This instantly reminds me of a French version of the Amphytrion myth, by either Giradoux or Anoulih, where Zeus/Jupiter in the opening scene, having spent the night with Alkmene (future mother of Hercules) disguised as her husband Amphytrion, wants to coax an admission from her that last night had been special and the best sex ever, compared to all their previous nights, and Alkmene keeps frustrating him by saying, yes, last night was nice, but remember night X or night Y, the sex we had then was even hotter, and you were even more magnificent! As Zeus can't break his cover, he has to take that. :) Could Fritz try this as well, and after hearing from Kaphengst this response, decide that actual sex is beneath him anyway...

From:

mildred_of_midgard

This is greeeeat! I love this. :D

Though I feel compelled to point out that my theory that Fritz had a low sex drive was developed in high school as a result of 1) reading no-homo-ing biographers, 2) instant recognition aka wishful thinking. Having been in salon for a number of years, I'm now of the opinion that he had a roughly normal sex drive. Probably not above average, but I no longer have reason to believe it was especially low.

So I vote that he would totally do it with Kaphengst, especially now that he's in a body with fewer health problems.

As you point out, Kaphengst was a cheerful extravert, and when I reread his description in Ziebura, it reminded me a fair bit of Keyserlingk. Now, not that I think Fritz was sleeping with Keyserlingk, but he was clearly drawn to the extraverted, charismatic type, and given that Kaphengst is good looking and expecting to have sex...I think Fritz would go for it. He might also be hugely relieved to be able to enjoy sex again properly, after all the gout and hemorrhoids and (depending on the year) difficulty breathing and whatnot.

Now, how the actual sex works out, and whether he and/or Kaphengst are strangely disappointed afterwords is another question.

after hearing from Kaphengst this response, decide that actual sex is beneath him anyway...

Average sex drive or no, he would definitely react with sour grapes. ;) This just proves that little brat Heinrich has bad taste!

From:

selenak

....Mes amies, it just occured to me that while Fritz and Heinrich might be each other's alter egos, we did decide they likely had different sexual tastes (within being gay), with Heinrich being a pushy bottom who enjoys getting manhandled and dominated in bed, but not out of it. Somehow I can't see Fritz going for this, at least not with Kaphengst, so there's another reason why the sex won't work out that well.

Meanwhile, I've been trying to find reasons why on earth Heinrich would ever agree to reverse the body switch instead of finally running the country in Fritz' body for the rest of his, well, Fritz' natural life, introducing the concept of delegation and making all those reforms he had suggested. I still need more, but no sex at all due to a combination of Fritz' body being 14 years older and way more tun down and no one in the post 7 Years War era daring to have sex with the King in the way Heinrich likes to have sex definitely helps.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Ooh, you're right! If you ask me when I'm wearing my historian hat, I'm of course agnostic as to what kind of sex Heinrich preferred, other than "spectacular," but I did write all that fic where he was a pushy bottom.

Though I have to remind you, that's just my fanfic: my headcanon is that he liked them to make him work for it, but he liked winning/dominating in the end. He found the victory much more satisfying if he had to work for it, and the winning was satisfying precisely because he was so frustrated with his life aka Fritz. And good sex was probably like getting to go to St. Petersburg: Heinrich is up to a challenge!

Now, as for how Fritz would handle this: if Heinrich really was a pushy bottom, I think that's a big no for Fritz. If Heinrich liked to have to work for it but to win...I think Fritz's relationship with Voltaire showed he could get sucked into push-pull, off-and-on relationships, so *maybe* he would end up in bed with Kaphengst or Mara or whoever. But I think that's very much not Fritz's happy place sexually: I think we agreed his preference was for a lot of enthusiastic affection, and I think that's what he got from Peter, Katte, Fredersdorf, and Algarotti. And non-sexually from some of his other favorite people, like Keyserlingk and Suhm. And for all his similarities to some of Heinrich's bad boys, I don't think Glasow was anything but "Yes, Your Majesty, very happy and honored to be here!" in bed with Fritz.

And wasn't there a letter where Fritz told someone (Keyserlingk? Jordan? Duhan?) that he would like it if they told him they loved him more. (Which inevitably reminds me of Wilhelmine saying she would like more letters even if they just said, "My sister, I love you, I love you, my sister.")

So even if we don't assume Heinrich's a pushy bottom, but that he likes more contentiousness in his sex and/or foreplay, I think Fritz might end up in bed but find it a letdown. And then of course go all sour grapes on how Kaphengst isn't really that spectacular.

Fritz: If I'm going to have that kind of relationship, it's going to be with the best: Voltaire!

OH. Speaking non-sexually for a moment, I want to see Mara's reaction when Fritz-in-Heinrich's-body micromanages/critiques his cello playing. :P That's bound to be spectacular in a different way.

I still need more, but no sex at all due to a combination of Fritz' body being 14 years older and way more tun down and no one in the post 7 Years War era daring to have sex with the King in the way Heinrich likes to have sex definitely helps.

Does Heinrich have the self-awareness to realize he's turning into Fritz? Can he refuse the Ring when he sees he's being corrupted? Maybe not on his own, but if someone or something draws his attention to it in a way he can't ignore?

From:

cahn

And good sex was probably like getting to go to St. Petersburg

OK, this made me laugh before I read the rest of the sentence, because I have been to St. Petersburg and I greatly enjoyed it but would not have compared it to good sex! (I KNOW that's not what you meant and that I am totally taking it out of context! It made me laugh anyway.)

Fritz: If I'm going to have that kind of relationship, it's going to be with the best: Voltaire!

HEE!

OH. Speaking non-sexually for a moment, I want to see Mara's reaction when Fritz-in-Heinrich's-body micromanages/critiques his cello playing. :P That's bound to be spectacular in a different way.

OHHH. Yeah!

Does Heinrich have the self-awareness to realize he's turning into Fritz? Can he refuse the Ring when he sees he's being corrupted? Maybe not on his own, but if someone or something draws his attention to it in a way he can't ignore?

Oooooh that would be fascinating!

From:

mildred_of_midgard

OK, this made me laugh before I read the rest of the sentence, because I have been to St. Petersburg and I greatly enjoyed it but would not have compared it to good sex! (I KNOW that's not what you meant and that I am totally taking it out of context! It made me laugh anyway.)

Lol! Well, if we're continuing to be silly, I would point out that what I said was not that St. Petersburg, or even going to St. Petersburg, was like good sex, but getting to go to St. Petersburg. And I imagine that for you, getting to go was a matter of having the money, having the time, deciding to prioritize it, and going through the bureaucracy to get the visa. If you'd wanted to go to Leningrad instead, getting to go might have been more like good sex, depending on whether you share Heinrich's hypthetical tastes. ;)

From:

cahn

Heh, well, I went in grad school (for a conference), so my boss also sent me there, so to speak! But my advisor was, thankfully, VERY different than Fritz.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

But Heinrich's boss did not send him to St. Petersburg, that's my point! He had to scheme and maneuver and outwit Fritz, who was resentful! And that's what I imagine getting Mara to STFU already and spread his legs was like: having to use all your wits and force of personality and WINNING.

Heinrich as pushy bottom who likes submitting is not my headcanon; I think he lost too much in real life for that to be satisfying (see also truncated pyramid).

But also sexual kinks are weird and arbitrary, so who knows. He could have had any tastes!

From:

luzula

Do let me know when this body-swap fic actually exists so I can read it! : D

From:

cahn

I have been asking for it for Yuletide for the past couple of years, so, you know, watch that space :)

(Heh, what inevitably happens is that I forget that we've talked about these things in salon, and then am totally surprised when I get [insert fic we talked about in salon]!)