cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 40

I'm trying to use my other account at least occasionally so I posted about my Yuletide gifts there, including the salon-relevant 12k fic that features Fritz, Heinrich, Voltaire, Fredersdorf, Saint Germain, Caroline Daum (Fredersdorf's wife), and Groundhog Day tropes! (Don't need to know canon.)

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From:

selenak

Yes indeed, that was her favorite, for that reason, and that's why the palace in Schönhausen has it.

Even Denis Diderot was sure that Frederick the Great had not touched a single woman and did not sleep with his wife.

Diderot, who went out of his way NOT to meet Fritz, ever, and presumably didn't even know EC's name? I'd be very surprised if his intel on Fritz' sex life was based on more than Voltaire's pamphlets. Young Münchow would like to protest that there was marital sex in Rheinsberg, he wrote a letter to the papers including this intel, and he was there as a page, while Diderot was not. Manteuffel adds that while Fritz reminds him of Hadrian, and in retrospect the prostitutes didn't report anything of interest, he's pretty sure there were some (female) prostitutes, since La Chetardie bribed them first.

This essay writer sounds like a soulmate of Burgdorf of "Die Liebe des Königs war tödlich" fame, alright. This said, the Algarotti and Fredersdorf essays sound like they're worth checking out.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Yes indeed, that was her favorite, for that reason, and that's why the palace in Schönhausen has it.

Do you happen to have a source for that? Or just "The Schönhausen people say so"?

Diderot, who went out of his way NOT to meet Fritz, ever, and presumably didn't even know EC's name? I'd be very surprised if his intel on Fritz' sex life was based on more than Voltaire's pamphlets.

Yeah, I mean, the whole section is good evidence that Europe thought that Fritz was gay. Which is relevant to whether Hogarth would include him in a depiction of "homosexual depravity"! But much less so to anything about Fritz's actual sex life.

This essay writer sounds like a soulmate of Burgdorf of "Die Liebe des Königs war tödlich" fame, alright.

He couldn't even convince me that Fritz was gay, and I'm already convinced Fritz was gay! :P

This said, the Algarotti and Fredersdorf essays sound like they're worth checking out.

Yeah, that's my main interest in this article, that and tracking down the quotes at some point. And the comparison of portraits was interesting (even if I often came to different conclusions).

Okay, I have to share one of the most entertaining of the many egregious aspects of this essay:

Voltaire's claim that Fritz exclusively bottomed is taken at face value, and footnoted with statistics.

According to recent surveys, 21.8% of all homosexuals prefer the passive part in sexual intercourse. 7.1% of them even state that they are fixated on the passive role. 43.4%, on the other hand, are not determined in their sexual behaviour and like both the active and passive role in anal sex. See Thomas Hertling, Homosexuelle Männlichkeit zwischen Diskriminierung und Emanzipation: Eine Studie zum Leben homosexueller Männer heute und Begründung ihrer wahrzunehmenden Vielfalt (Münster, Hamburg, Berlin, Vienna, London: LIT Verlag, 2011), 198. This may not have been much different in the 18th century.

I mean. The readers of Voltaire's memoirs and pamphlets are not going to find themselves thinking, "Oh, I see, Fritz likes to bottom. I've read the Kinsey report, and that all checks out." !!!

The author doesn't seem to realize that Voltaire's claim was AN INSULT. It's like the opposite of the people who claim the only evidence that Fritz was gay was Voltaire trying to slander him with all this talk of bottoming.

This is what I mean when I say "I read this essay so you don't have to."

From:

selenak

Or just "The Schönhausen people say so"?

Not the Schönhausen people, the Schönhausen plaque next to the painting. It did occur to me Ziebura might have included this detail in the pictorial part of her "Kein Mitleid mit den Frauen" book, but I don't have a physical copy with me. Also, here is a guided Instagramm tour through the palace - haven't watched it yet, so I can't say whether it includes the Fritz portrait bit, but it might.

Voltaire's claim that Fritz exclusively bottomed is taken at face value, and footnoted with statistics.

ROTFLOL. I mean. Does the author think Voltaire, in selfless dedication to research, interviewed hot hussars and pages on the subject? Is he familiar at all with the grand tradition of sexual insults in the "you're the bum boy!" vein from Cicero's Philippica against Mark Antony downwards? (Suddenly it occurs to me he might take Cicero literally, too...)

From:

luzula

I mean. The readers of Voltaire's memoirs and pamphlets are not going to find themselves thinking, "Oh, I see, Fritz likes to bottom. I've read the Kinsey report, and that all checks out." !!!

The author doesn't seem to realize that Voltaire's claim was AN INSULT.

Wow, this is truly hilarious. : D

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Between Fritz's nose and Struensee, yesterday was certainly my day to turn up gold mines of highly inaccurate, highly entertaining, reading material.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

From Paul Barz, author of a Struensee bio and believer that FS is French, comes an unsourced "hot or not" report on Fritz that surprisingly comes down on the side of "hot"!

A young man, just twenty-eight years old, comes out of the historical semi-darkness, with a bright blue-grey gaze on his pretty, girlish face. His overly slender appearance enchants both women and men, one of whom sighs at the sight of him: "I could not have failed to fall in love with him if I had been of a different sex..."

Now, first of all, all the paintings and eyewitness descriptions that I'm aware of, and I believe his own words, have him plump at this stage, not overly slender. And the pretty, girlish face that enchants everyone is news to me. He has beautiful eyes, but that's it!

I'm definitely going to have to track down a better Struensee bio at some point, but in the meantime this one makes up in entertainment what it lacks in accuracy, and is good German practice.

From:

selenak

Oh good lord, not even Zimmerman with his big, big crush on Fritz would have described him thusly. And he actually knew him only in his old age, i.e. when he was slender. But yeah, I don't think anyone who knew him before the massive weight loss through the 7 Years War described him thus. Seckendorff the Nephew says "flabby" in one of his reports in 1730s Fritz, I think, and "plumb" (though not fat a la FW) is the general idea. And while every envoy and their sidekick mention the eyes, no one says anything about a pretty face.

(Meanwhile, you know who does get described as handsome in face and figure in the 1730s? FS on his grand tour, by Hervey, Hervey's wife and other English folk who don't have anything to gain by being complimentary about the Duke of Lorraine/ possible future Emperor if married to MT (which he wasn't yet, but which was in the air as a good chance). Especially Hervey, who as a rule is incredibly bitchy about German princes, not only but primarily those who are currently occupying the British throne. And Hervey, who was good looking himself, was, dare I say, a connoiseur of male beauty. (He'd totally mod "Queer Eye for the 18th Century Guy", wouldn't he?)

(So no one has to look it up, here is Hervey's steadfastly improving opinion on visiting FS, from the Hervey biography:

Hervey carefully and dispassionately observed him. 'a pretty figure of a man', he reported to Stephen (Stephen Fox, Hervey's lover), tho low and rather thick, ill made & worse dressed. He wears his own hair, has a very handsome face, like the King of France, but a more sensible, more lively & more good natured countenance. He seems very easy & very well bred.'(...)

Hervey's first favourable impression was strengthened: the more he saw the Duke the more he liked him. 'He is very well bred, with more nicety, more ease and more more constant presence of Mind than any Body I ever met & has the most beautiful, most sweet & most sensible Countenance I ever beheld.'

(...) The day before leaving, (Franz Stephan) walked in Kensington Gardens in the morning with the Queen and her suite (including Hervey) until it began to rain. They all returned to St. James at full gallop in open chaises, wet to the skin and bespattered with mud like stage-coached postillons. On 8 December he boarded his yacht at Greenwich, 'regretting and regretted'. Hervey, who too easily observed the flaws of everyone he met, could find none in this paragon: he still thought him handsome, cheerful, sensible, well bred and obliging: 'Never any Body had the good Fortune of pleasing to universally.' The Duke's departure, he told Lord Bateman, had 'put the town in universal mourning: it is the Fashion for the Women to cry.' He was not exaggarating, for he had evidence close at hand. 'The Duke of Lorraine has carried the hearts of all our fine ladies away with him', Lady Stratford wrote (more than two weeks later); 'Lady Hervey has cried every day since his departure and says she can't enjoy anybody's company now that agreeable creature is gone.

Now that is a reliable contemporary "he's hot!" report. :)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Oh good lord, not even Zimmerman with his big, big crush on Fritz would have described him thusly.

Well, to be fair, a plump 28-yo probably *is* better-looking than an underweight 74-year-old in terrible health, but still!

He'd totally mod "Queer Eye for the 18th Century Guy", wouldn't he?

Totally!

Thank you for the FS write-up. Looks like he was the opposite of Heinrich: figure not that impressive at first glance, but handsome face.