cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 40

I'm trying to use my other account at least occasionally so I posted about my Yuletide gifts there, including the salon-relevant 12k fic that features Fritz, Heinrich, Voltaire, Fredersdorf, Saint Germain, Caroline Daum (Fredersdorf's wife), and Groundhog Day tropes! (Don't need to know canon.)

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From:

mildred_of_midgard

- never went away, the "we're now better off than in the past" idea is something that may have debuted once Christian monks started to write the chronicles

Interesting, I am not an expert on medieval chronicles, but I had the impression that the idea of the Fall, and of course the impending end of the world, governed Christian historiography a lot, and you get a strong negative "now is worse" slant. It's actually kind of interesting that Otto von Freising, a bishop, writes on his own initiative a book that's not primarily a history but a story of how everything on earth is so meaningless and terrible and ephemeral, and that's why you should not care about earthly things...and then he gets commissioned by his nephew the emperor (Barbarossa) to write a history of his reign, and suddenly Otto discovers "progress". ;)

I know the idea of progress being a natural state of affairs really took off with the Whigs, but the nuances of its development are not something I'm conversant with.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that when you read the book, you're left with the impression that the author thinks that this sure as hell was a remarkable age, but we still have a lot to accomplish and improve, so get to it, people!

I mean, that's exactly how I feel about the present: it's a lot better than the past, but we've got a long way to go, people!

Meanwhile, as I recall in one of his later life letters to Voltaire Fritz describes the Age of Louis XIV as a lost golden age when giants walked the earth whereas the present sucks and compliments Voltaire as being the last survivor from that age (of Louis XIV). Though in a yet later letter, the one I used in my story about the two of them, he more accurately and more poignantly says something like "it's enough to have lived in the Age of Voltaire"

But in that letter Fritz also said the future was going to be better (at least for German culture), but he was old and knew he wasn't going to live to see it, so he was contenting himself with Voltaire:

Germany is now like France was in the time of Francis I. The taste for letters begins to spread; we must wait for nature to give birth to true geniuses, as under the ministries of Richelieu and Mazarin. The soil that produced one Leibniz can produce others.

I will not see these beautiful days of my homeland, but I foresee the possibility. You will tell me that this can be very indifferent to you, and that I play the prophet quite at my ease by extending, as much as I can, the term of my prediction. This is my way of prophesying, and the surest of all, since no one will give me the lie.

As for me, I console myself with having lived in the age of Voltaire; it's enough for me.

So he clearly has an idea of progress here. While he may reminisce about a 17th century golden age, he doesn't *just* think in terms of a lost golden age (maybe because he's enough of a product of the Enlightenment.)

Incidentally, I think Voltaire may be overestimating the British adherence to law and willingness to arrest foreign dignitaries if he thinks Christina would have gotten arrested if she'd had the guy murdered, err, executed on English soil.

Hmm. There are not a whole lot of parallels. The diplomatic reciprocity thing I mentioned was an envoy to Britain getting thrown in debtors' prison, but that was just an envoy, not a visiting ex-monarch. I guess the closest parallel would be this question (to which I don't know the answer): what's the worst thing Peter the Great got away with when he was visiting Britain? Trashing your residence with your wild parties isn't exactly comparable to execution/murder!

But it's an interesting question, I wouldn't feel certain saying either they would or wouldn't have arrested her.

From:

selenak

Interesting, I am not an expert on medieval chronicles, but I had the impression that the idea of the Fall, and of course the impending end of the world, governed Christian historiography a lot, and you get a strong negative "now is worse" slant.

Otto of Freising and other high medieval chroniclers fall under the category of "have centuries of Christianity to look back on" I indicated above. Whereas I was thinking of really early Christian chroniclers, like Einhard who was Charlemagne's contemporary and chronicler. I recently had to reread his entire Carolus Magnus, and he definitely is under the impression the Carolingian age is pretty fab and better than before when one had to put up with Merowingian kings, never mind the pagan past. It's just since Charles died - sob! - that things are starting to look just a teeeeeensy bit concerning... Oh, Einhard does have a bit of a chip on his shoulder regarding the general German ability to write in Latin, which he assures us has been getting better all the time due to all those schools now operating in the Francian Empire, and also, if his Latin isn't Ciceronian, well, whose is? Certainly not that of those Italian busybodies across the Alps.

I guess the closest parallel would be this question (to which I don't know the answer): what's the worst thing Peter the Great got away with when he was visiting Britain? Trashing your residence with your wild parties isn't exactly comparable to execution/murder!

Indeed, and Peter is a sitting monarch, with the corresponding armies to call on, not an ex monarch. I suppose another question is: who is going to do the arresting, i.e. which British goverment are we talking about? Obviously Oliver Cromwell would be just fine with arresting Christina for murder - biggest traitor in the Protestant world, Gustavus Adolphus' daughter who has become a Catholic! - but then Christina, while reckless, hardly would have visited England while he was still in charge. After the Restoration, I think Charles II. would be aware of the PR disaster (Catholic! Monarch! Killing People Autocratically On British Soil!) but would have tried to solve the situation by sending her off to France post haste. James II. would have stuck his heels in and said Christina - who has seen the light of the one true religion even before he dared to confess his own seeing the light to all and sunder - shall ever be God's annointed and thus of course is above the law!

But this is all speculation, because I can't think of a comparable case in English history, either.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Otto of Freising and other high medieval chroniclers fall under the category of "have centuries of Christianity to look back on" I indicated above.

Ah, okay, I see what you mean. I was going back to the early writers, like Augustine, and thinking that they don't seem to be big believers in progress, and that by the high Middle Ages, the chroniclers are still taking their cue from him, but if you mean when Christianity started triumphing over paganism, then yes, I can see that.

Without being especially knowledgeable, I think in Christian historiographry, you get a variety of trends:

"The pagans are winning, everything is bad and getting worse": Gildas, who saw Christianity under attack by a resurgence of paganism.

"No, Christianity is not responsible for recent disasters, like the fall of Rome! Things sucked just as much, if not more so, under the pagan Romans, and everyone should become Christian so things get better!": Orosius, Augustine.

"Forget about this life, focus on the next life": Augustine, Otto von Freising.

"Christianity is triumphing, woo!": Einhard, Bede.

"I'm a fan of this monarch, who has made things better": Einhard, Otto when writing about his nephew.

"I'm not a fan of this monarch, who has made things worse": probably everyone who ever wrote about Henry IV? But also a lot of other monks about a lot of other emperors.

Also, leaving aside chroniclers, there was a very strong medieval attitude toward politics and law that consisted of resolving modern difficulties by returning to an alleged status quo, when things were better/right. I think what's really ground-breaking about the tradition Voltaire embodies is the idea that it is natural and right to focus human efforts on improving human life here on earth, and that if you're not doing that, something has gone terribly wrong.