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cahnI'm trying to use my other account at least occasionally so I posted about my Yuletide gifts there, including the salon-relevant 12k fic that features Fritz, Heinrich, Voltaire, Fredersdorf, Saint Germain, Caroline Daum (Fredersdorf's wife), and Groundhog Day tropes! (Don't need to know canon.)
Re: Peter Keith in the archives!
Date: 2023-01-03 08:53 pm (UTC)"I have no other ambition than to be useful to you"--either Peter finally figured out the magic words to say to Fritz after the dismal failure of 1740, or else Fritz finally had 10 years of evidence to convince him that Peter wasn't pushing for high office or influence, or both.
Btw, almost all the chronology in that fic was either deliberately wrong or else I knew at the time that it was going to turn out to be wrong when we had more evidence--and so it has come to pass. But I'm delighted that we're finding answers to almost all my questions and connecting all these dots!
Biggest outstanding question: Where was Peter buried? Second biggest outstanding question I can think of: when did his younger son die?
Re: Peter Keith in the archives!
Date: 2023-01-04 08:19 am (UTC)On the one hand: if you think about it, it makes sense in that with the mail needing sometimes months to arrive unless you're a royal with a special courier of your own at hand, in an age with high children mortality and were you believe the child's soul is at stake, you want that baptizing done quickly. So I bet that's how Trenck did it, not just with Joseph but also Amalie, only asking after the fact, so to speak. Plus in the Peter and Fritz case, Fritz is at war, so who knows when the letter will find him.
On the other hand: a pregnancy takes nine months. You'd think it makes sense to ask potential high ranking godfatahers and -mothers before the kid is born during the seven or so months you know about the impending arrival?
I dimly seem to recall something about FW changing his mind with Ferdinand, not on the godfathers but which one the kid was to be called after in daily life, with him first being called August after August the Strong, and then Ferdinand after *mind blanks* But that doesn't say anything as to when permission was asked even among royals.
Oh, and Leopold is called Peter Leopold because MT in an effort to win Elizaveta over to the cause against Fritz and for Austria asked her to be godmother to Leopold, with the name "Peter" taken from Elizaveta's father since they hardly could call the kid "Elisabethus".
I'm glad Peter has such legible handwriting! And I have another, not that important queston. I'm just curious as to whether he ever found out he was suggested as a candidate for Prussian envoy in London and that Fritz rejected this idea?
Re: Peter Keith in the archives!
Date: 2023-01-04 04:27 pm (UTC)* Except not in France, at least according to Horowski! Where they would sometimes wait years, and this one noble didn't even get a first name until he was 20-something and finally needed an official name to put down in the register so he could hold some office. How the French squared that with infant mortality and Catholicism, idk. Maybe all their babies just went to limbo!
Ferdinand after *mind blanks*
Ooh, good question. Who were the royal Ferdinands of 1730? There was future Ferdinand VI of Spain (mentally ill guy who almost got married to poor niece Isabella of Parma), who I think would have been Prince of Asturias (Spanish equivalent of crown prince) at the time? He's the only one coming to mind, though there are enough minor German princes running around that there's probably one there I'm forgetting.
ETA: Oh, duh, there's a Ferdinand of Brunswick, much closer to home!
I'm glad Peter has such legible handwriting!
My decision to choose Peter as my research subject is vindicated! <3
And I have another, not that important queston. I'm just curious as to whether he ever found out he was suggested as a candidate for Prussian envoy in London and that Fritz rejected this idea?
Ooh, yes, I have many questions that are not that important for my essay-in-progress but are actually of more personal interest to me than the death of his younger son. I just feel like I need that one to check all the boxes and feel like the essay is complete.
If I ever find out the answer to the envoy question, you'll be the first to know!
Re: Peter Keith in the archives!
Date: 2023-01-05 01:48 pm (UTC)Re: Peter Keith in the archives!
Date: 2023-01-05 08:27 pm (UTC)Btw, I heard back from
Re: Peter Keith in the archives!
Date: 2023-01-21 12:16 am (UTC)Re: Peter Keith in the archives!
Date: 2023-01-21 05:19 am (UTC)Spoiler: someone(s) indexed a WHOLE LOT of stuff in OCTOBER 2021, omg, just months after we were looking before! So now there is a burial record for Peter, among other goodies :D What a time to be alive! If this had been twenty years ago it would have been MICROFICHE. Probably microfiche only existing in Germany!
Nikolaikirche
Date: 2023-01-21 02:53 pm (UTC)Heee! You also said Peter and Ariane had only been linked in December 2022, and her name is so badly misspelled that you wouldn't have found her and her baptism record otherwise!
Peter: was buried January 2, 1757 in the Nikolaikirche. What I have found so far on the Nikolaikirche:
1. Goes back to the 1200s and is the oldest intact church in the center of Berlin.
2. Was a popular burial site over the centuries.
3. Was predictably partially destroyed by bombs in WWII. I have not yet determined the preservation state of burials from Jan 2, 1757, but you can guess that this will become a major research interest of mine soon. ;)
4. Was beautifully restored and is a museum today. You can walk around inside on Google Maps using street view, and if you're in Berlin, you should go! It is huge, really cool looking, and looks like there are a *ton* of elements of historical and art historical interest. (Highly recommend the street view from the inside, it's almost like visiting the building (except I'm having trouble reading the plaques and informational panels, dammit).)
5. Was located 1 km from Peter's house.
Nitpick: I entered the Nicolaihaus as Peter's address, though it wasn't where Peter was living when he died. We don't have the address, we just know it was adjacent or nearly adjacent to the Nicolaihaus, where he had lived previously.
That reminds me, Selena, you mentioned when this came up previously that you would visit the Nicolaihaus when you were in Berlin, to pay respects to Peter, but I presume also because Nicolai is also of interest to salon (and there will be more detail on him in the house/museum). Did you ever end up going?
Something I'm curious about: when Nicolai was writing about Peter in the 1790s, did he know he was living in the house Peter used to live in?
P.S. If Peter's burial is still there in the Nikolaikirche, I *will* ask for a visit and pics next time anyone is in Berlin ;), but that is TBD. Stay tuned!
ETA: Btw, I have let
Re: Nikolaikirche
Date: 2023-01-21 03:17 pm (UTC)Re: Nikolaikirche
Date: 2023-01-21 03:39 pm (UTC)Re: Nikolaikirche
Date: 2023-01-21 04:17 pm (UTC)I hope the pandemic lets up and I feel safe traveling soon, because I just added the Nikolaikirche to the list of places I have to visit!
Re: Nikolaikirche
Date: 2023-01-23 06:15 am (UTC)Re: Peter Keith in the archives!
Date: 2023-01-21 07:31 am (UTC)That's awesome!
Re: Peter Keith in the archives!
Date: 2023-01-21 06:14 pm (UTC)November 1764! Exactly as we suspected: he's in the 1764 Berlin address calendar, living with his brother, and not in the 1765 entry, and by 1786, the older son is mentioned as the only living son of his parents. And remember, he was listed as baptized at home in 1745, because of illness.
Aww, that's sad. He was only 19. :/ And poor Ariane and Peter Carl Ernst Reinhardt, losing husband/Dad Peter in 1756 and son/brother Friedrich Ludwig in 1764. :(
ETA: I don't have a death date, but the burial date is Nov 17. Oh, interesting, looks like it was also the Nikolakirche! AWWW. (Not surprising, but remember that Ariane, as a great governess to the queen, was buried in the Parochialkirche.)
(So what happened is I asked
I have also accidentally found the burial record of Suhm's daughter who married a different (presumably distantly related) Lt. Col. von Keith: she died February 1785 and was buried in Neuwerk Rendsburg, Schleswig-Holstein.
Off to find more records!
Re: Peter Keith in the archives!
Date: 2023-01-21 08:47 pm (UTC)October 20, buried October 24 in the Parochialkirche! (At least according to the transcription, I'll leave deciphering the text to
So younger son (age 19) is with Dad (age 45), older son (age 78) is with Mom (age 71). <3
ETA: So here's an interesting point to add to the fact that Ariane was buried in the Parochialkirche because she was a great governess: her parents were married there*, she and at least one of her sisters [son and daughter of ETA: make that at least 3 of her siblings] were baptized there, her surviving son was buried there. I think this was also just the church the Knyphausens attended!
(I also think it makes perfect sense that Friedrich Ludwig was buried near the only parent who was dead at the time, and Carl Ernst was buried at the church near to the mother he'd been interacting with and probably attending church with, and possibly close to, until he was almost 50. I think the record says he was buried in the same crypt as his mother, but I'll wait for Prinzsorgenfrei to continue.)
* ETA again: Well, I could have sworn her parents were married there, but now that I'm looking at the doc I originally found, it doesn't name a church, and there's a completely different marriage record for them that says Berlin Dom.
Yes, I have found two completely separate records for almost all of these things: Ariane, Peter, and Friedrich Ludwig all have 2 burial records! Ariane has one in French and one in German. Peter has two burial dates (Jan 2 and Jan 3). Let's just say the record-keeping is iiinteresting.
Btw, this has interesting implications for searching, because apparently the Marienkirche collected data on who died when and where they were buried, somewhat after the fact (like monthly?) and added up how many burials per church. And they tend to just list the title, not the first name, so we've got Leutnant Keith for Peter, Resendarius (a mistranscription for "referendarius") Keith for Friedrich Ludwig, and Baronne Keith for Ariane. So you have to know your history as you scan the lists of results!
No baptism for Carl Ernst yet.
Re: Peter Keith in the archives!
Date: 2023-01-22 04:20 pm (UTC)Yes, absolutely. And may I say: given how thoroughly bombed Berlin was, and that church records not involving a Hohenzollern probably were low on the evacuation and safe keeping priority list, it's nothing short of amazing that all these records still exist and survived long enough to be digitalized.
Peter has two burial dates (Jan 2 and Jan 3)
Maybe someone transcribed badly? If you write 2 and 3 sloppily, I could see a mistake being made, but then I haven't seen the original.
BTW, I just checked Lehndorff who presumably attended the burial, but he doesn't mention the exact date in his lengthy and heartfelt entry on Peter in the 24 - 31 December 1756 section of his diary, and the next printed date is January 11 1757.
Re: Peter Keith in the archives!
Date: 2023-01-22 04:40 pm (UTC)Confirm, not continue.
And may I say: given how thoroughly bombed Berlin was, and that church records not involving a Hohenzollern probably were low on the evacuation and safe keeping priority list, it's nothing short of amazing that all these records still exist and survived long enough to be digitalized.
I know! I was lamenting to Royal Patron in 2021 that I didn't know where Peter was buried, and he said, "Well, that information is out there waiting to be found!" and I said, "You're forgetting about the bombing in WWII. It might very well not be."
But he was right, it was! (I am still surprised.)
Maybe someone transcribed badly? If you write 2 and 3 sloppily, I could see a mistake being made, but then I haven't seen the original.
I thought of that and looked before posting, and I'm *pretty* sure they're a 2 and a 3, but as always, Prinzsorgenfrei can weigh in.
his lengthy and heartfelt entry on Peter
<3
the next printed date is January 11 1757.
Yeah, I searched through the index and the search function for any Keith mentions and collated them back in the day, and didn't get anything on the burial. (But always feel free to check yourself, search functions and indexing are error prone.)
I also turned up a marriage and burial record that I *think* may be one of Peter's brothers, whom Kloosterhuis mentions as a possible candidate for not!Robert. His name is Johann Friedrich, Kloosterhuis says he lived 1714-1793 and lived in East Prussia. I have a marriage record for a Johann Friederich in East Prussia in 1744 (definitely the right age for a first marriage) and a death record for a Joh. Fried. Keitt in 1793 in West Prussia.
On the other hand, there's a Michael Fredersdorf getting married in Berlin in October 1754 who is not our Michael Fredersdorf, so could be a different Keith!
[ETA: The marriage one has a von and is spelled correctly and is in at least the right region; I just realized that in *addition* ot having the wrong spelling and being in the wrong place, the 1793 death has no "von". So I'm inclined to think the burial record is unrelated, but the marriage still might be.]
In other news, I knew Suhm had lost two children at young ages (2 and 10), but it was still sad seeing their burial records.
Also, the handwriting of all the records I found in Dresden is weird! Very loopy, almost looks like Georgian.
Post-bombing
Date: 2023-01-23 03:22 am (UTC)https://www.bz-berlin.de/archiv-artikel/das-comeback-der-engel if you want to read the article and see other pictures.