cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 39

Last post, along with the usual 18th-century suspects, included the Ottonians; changing ideas of conception and women's sexual pleasure; Isabella of Parma (the one who fell in love, and vice versa, with her husband's sister); Henry IV and Bertha (and Henry's second wife divorcing him for "unspeakable sexual acts"). (Okay, Isabella of Parma was 18th century.)

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From:

felis

It sounds legit that to celebrate becoming King he begins to publicly and openly appear with his great lover, Algarotti? (And it's the one and only point they mention for things he does as new King, too.) I'm not saying they weren't lovers or that he wasn't into Algarotti at the time, he obviously was - I'm saying that the way it's phrased is really misleading, making it sound much more deliberate and official and public than it was, and singling out Algarotti as the King's consort in a way that's too much, even in 1740. But hey. YMMV.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

It sounds legit that to celebrate becoming King he begins to publicly and openly appear with his great lover, Algarotti?

Yes? Considering that until now, Fritz couldn't have the people he wanted around him, Keyserlingk was having to meet him incognito as late as 1740, and we all know that having the people he wanted around him was one of THE most important things to Fritz...I would say he was celebrating by publicly having Algarotti accompany him, yes.

making it sound much more deliberate and official and public than it was

I concede that you've listened to this and I haven't, but given the passage you've quoted, the "quite clearly I think" says to me that they're saying it specifically wasn't an official consort situation, and we in salon know Algarotti's status certainly wasn't exclusive, either as public companion or as lover. But the carriage ride to the homage ceremony in Königsberg was public and deliberate, imo, and a celebration by Fritz of his ability to have his self-chosen same-sex lover instead of his boring forced-marriage wife with him. Unless I'm wrong about how well-attested it is that Algarotti was riding with him, because I'm blanking on the exact source.

From:

felis

But the carriage ride to the homage ceremony in Königsberg was public and deliberate, imo,

And you know who the other person in that carriage was? Keyserlingk. (One source for the three of them travelling together is a Fritz letter to AW IIRC.) Which is my point. You mention him yourself as Fritz having to sneak around to meet him. Envoys to other states mention him as the big Favourite. So if this podcast singles out Algarotti as the one lover he parades around, it's absolutely misleading. Yes, of course Fritz celebrated by freely surrounding himself with the people he loved, but ALL of them, and including non-romantic relationships. Not just Algarotti.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

If the podcast is saying that Algarotti is the one person he parades around, then no, but the one lover immediately after he came to power? I totally agree Fritz had a variety of relationships, from sexual/romantic to romantic to close friendship to beloved mentor to love-hate to twin soul, and so on, but to me the sentence you quoted doesn't read as being about how Algarotti was the person Fritz loved more than anyone, but about how becoming king allowed Fritz to stick one foot outside the closet. Being gay (or not being gay) is one of the reasons Fritz is talked about in the English-speaking popular world, and that's the context I bring to a broadcast like this.

From:

selenak

On a tangentially related note but not about this broadcast, this reminds me of the Straßburg trip, which I did see described on tumblr as another Fritz-and-Algarotti excursion, only for us to find out that in addition to Algarotti, Fritz took along AW, Fredersdorf, Wartensleben and I think Knobelsdorff (or maybe the last one is something the novelist who wrote about K made up), and consciously edited out AW of any recountings of that trip to Henri de Catt or other people in his later life.

Conclusion: the broadcast guys aren't the only ones prone to make excursions in which Mr. Hot Stuff was present into travels a deux even if they demonstrably weren't. :)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

only for us to find out that in addition to Algarotti, Fritz took along AW, Fredersdorf, Wartensleben

~~Didn't Fritz describe it as a "me-and-Algarotti, AW who?" trip to Catt?~~

Somehow my eyes glazed right over that line. Yes! You just said that.

Fritz: When I rewrite history, people believe me. What can I say?

and I think Knobelsdorff (or maybe the last one is something the novelist who wrote about K made up)

I don't remember Knobelsdorff, but I could be forgetting. I do remember you and Felis found that Fritz and Algarotti stayed in separate inns, so sex was apparently not in the cards for that trip! (I think Fritz got hit by malaria toward the end, so he might have been feeling under the weather already?)

Edited Date: 2022-12-15 02:30 pm (UTC)

From:

selenak

Yes, Algarotti stayed with AW at the in "Holy Ghost", Fritz with Wartensleben (and presumably Fredersdorf) at the "Raven". (Though Bielfeld has it the other way around, but Volz is using two French sources who both agree on this.) If Fritz was already feeling under the weather, I bet he wanted to be rather nursed by Fredersdorf at night than having to be dashing with sexpot Algarotti. :)

(I stand by my theory as to why Maupertois wanted to take Algarotti along to Lappland.)

Mind you, Algarotti was also handy for makng Fritz' excuses to de Broglie later on. BTW, I'm currently reading at last Mike Duncan's Lafayette biography, and I know Straßburg!Broglie is the father of 7 Years War!Broglie, but: is 7 Years War!Broglie also the same guy who thinks he will be stadtholder of the US and replace Washington when Lafayette's first trip to the colonies gets organized?

From:

mildred_of_midgard

If Fritz was already feeling under the weather, I bet he wanted to be rather nursed by Fredersdorf at night than having to be dashing with sexpot Algarotti. :)

Headcanon! This is my new headcanon.

(I stand by my theory as to why Maupertois wanted to take Algarotti along to Lappland.)

I have thought about writing this one too, but alas, my South Pole background don't extend to 18th century Lappland well enough for me to feel comfortable writing a fic without a lot more research. Would that Maupertuis had wanted to take Algarotti to the South Pole in the early 20th century, then I could write that in my sleep!

BTW, I'm currently reading at last Mike Duncan's Lafayette biography

Oh, nice. As noted, I have no idea how accurate it is, but it's readable.

is 7 Years War!Broglie also the same guy who thinks he will be stadtholder of the US and replace Washington when Lafayette's first trip to the colonies gets organized?

Older brother. 7 Years' War!Broglie is the older brother of wannabe-stadtholder, who was best known for his important role in Louis XV's secret service.

Cahn, Louis XV had official ministers who got told to do one thing, and a secret service who reported directly to him and often got told to do the opposite thing, and this did not make life easy on French ministers.

From:

luzula

I have thought about writing this one too, but alas, my South Pole background don't extend to 18th century Lappland well enough for me to feel comfortable writing a fic without a lot more research.

Just saying that I have read Linnaeus' journal of his travels in Lapland, from 1732! In case you want beta-reading/brainstorming help. : )

What is this trip, btw?

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Ooh! Is there an English translation? (I mean, not that I read anything but German and French these days, but eventually I'll master them enough that I can go back to English.)

Strasburg trip write-up: https://rheinsberg.dreamwidth.org/49618.html. No mention of Knobelsdorff in that write-up, btw.

From:

luzula

There seems to be an English translation on Gutenberg.

Ah no, I meant the proposed Lapland trip.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Ah, sorry! Hmm, I don't think there's a dedicated write-up, but there's this, from an Algarotti write-up, with brief mentions in the Maupertuis write-up and honorary mention in La Condamine (who went to the equator instead).

Plus silly AU crackfic proposals here and here.

From:

luzula

Cool, thanks!

I remember that Linnaeus’ book had him seeing graffiti by some French guys who had gone to Lapland and concluded that it was truly the end of the world. That book also has a hilarious passage where Linnaeus tries to figure out why the Sami are hardier and can walk farther. First on the list is: they don't wear high-heeled shoes. : D

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I remember that Linnaeus’ book had him seeing graffiti by some French guys who had gone to Lapland and concluded that it was truly the end of the world.

That's probably our guys! It was sponsored by the French Academy of Sciences! And they were trying to get as close to the pole as possible for their measurements.

First on the list is: they don't wear high-heeled shoes. : D

*spittake*

ETA: Volumes one and two, in case I can tempt any royal readers ~~after Lafayette~~.

Edited Date: 2022-12-15 03:55 pm (UTC)

From:

luzula

Probably some other French guys! Looks like Maupertois was there in 1736, and Linnaeus was there in 1732.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Oh, interesting! I did not check Linnaeus' dates. I wonder if this was a preliminary expedition, or unrelated.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Skimming the Lapland chapter in the Maupertuis bio (with my eyes admittedly on 5 hours of sleep), I'm not seeing an earlier expedition, so it's probably unrelated! This is Terrall's "The Man Who Flattened the Earth", in case the book is of interest to you. (It's pretty dry, but informative.)

From:

cahn

First on the list is: they don't wear high-heeled shoes. : D

HAHAHAHA omg that is amazing!

From:

selenak

It is, but it's also worth remembering that wearing high heeled shoes wasn't something coded as female in that era. If you check out full body portraits of Louis XIV, you'll note he's wearing them, and consequently so did a lot of his nobles (I guess not those who were naturally tall, but other than that).

(Meanwhile, Louis' cousin Charles II: naturally tall. Which made life dangerous for him when on the run from Oliver Cromwell as a young man.)

There's even an anecdote in Saint Simon (I think, could be another source) about a prank where one noble nailed another to the floor via driving nails into his heels. So "not wearing high heels" is something you would notice as a contemporary.

From:

luzula

Oh, totally! When

garonne and I were at Versailles and practising fashion history on all the paintings, high heels on men was one of the tells (shows if it's before or after about 1730). I remember an awesome 17th century painting where one guy had black shoes with bright red heels. *g*

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Well, that's exactly what made it so hilarious to me: that the 18th century was so big into high heels that it wouldn't occur to you *not* to wear them on your expeditions across difficult terrain!

From:

cahn

I didn't know that until now, but ha, yes, I did get that from

luzula's context :D But now I need to go check out Louis XIV, clearly!

But I still think it's hilarious that they're like "what could possibly make these guys more hardy than us?? We have no idea?? Oh wait! Maybe... it's... the high heels??"

Or, what

mildred_of_midgard said :D That is commitment!

Re: Broglies

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2022-12-16 09:03 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

cahn

Every time someone brings up de Broglie I think about the only de Broglie I know, the 1900's physicist who came up with wave-particle duality, and have to remind myself "no, centuries are WAY WAY off!" It does appear from Wikipedia that he is the great-great-great-grandson (whew) of 7 Years' War!Broglie.

Cahn, Louis XV had official ministers who got told to do one thing, and a secret service who reported directly to him and often got told to do the opposite thing, and this did not make life easy on French ministers.

...yeah that sounds not so fun for everyone but Louis XV :P

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Same! De Broglie is the wave-particle guy to me! (And I imagine, to

luzula.)

It does appear from Wikipedia that he is the great-great-great-grandson (whew) of 7 Years' War!Broglie.

Neat! I don't think I knew that, or if I did, I looked it up and promptly forgot.

...yeah that sounds not so fun for everyone but Louis XV :P

Sadly, I don't even think it was fun for him. ;) From what I've read, he had a reputation for being lazy and letting other people rule for him, but the problem wasn't that he didn't care or want to carry out his responsibilities, but that he was insecure in a way that made him painfully shy as well as indecisive. So rather than be big into representational government a la Louis XIV, or even being front and center while doing hands-on ruling, a la Fritz or Joseph II, he spent a lot of time closeted with this or that minister, the head of his spy network, etc., doing work behind the scenes and getting no credit for it. He wanted to do the right thing for his country, but he didn't really have the personality for the public aspects of the job.

From what I've read, anyway.

Edited Date: 2022-12-16 01:27 pm (UTC)