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cahnGonna go ahead and make this post even though Yuletide is coming...
But in the meantime, there has been some fic in the fandom posted!
Holding His Space (2503 words) by felisnocturna
Chapters: 1/1
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF, 18th Century CE Frederician RPF
Rating: Teen And Up Audiences
Warnings: Creator Chose Not To Use Archive Warnings
Relationships: Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf/Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Characters: Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf, Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Additional Tags: Protectiveness, Domestic, Character Study
Summary:
Using People (3392 words) by prinzsorgenfrei
Chapters: 1/1
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF
Rating: General Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Relationships: Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great/Hans Hermann von Katte
Characters: Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great, Hans Hermann von Katte
Additional Tags: Fluff, Idiots in Love, reading plays aloud while gazing into each others eyes
Summary:
But in the meantime, there has been some fic in the fandom posted!
Holding His Space (2503 words) by felisnocturna
Chapters: 1/1
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF, 18th Century CE Frederician RPF
Rating: Teen And Up Audiences
Warnings: Creator Chose Not To Use Archive Warnings
Relationships: Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf/Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Characters: Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf, Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Additional Tags: Protectiveness, Domestic, Character Study
Summary:
Five times Fredersdorf has to stay behind - and one time Friedrich doesn't leave.
Using People (3392 words) by prinzsorgenfrei
Chapters: 1/1
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF
Rating: General Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Relationships: Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great/Hans Hermann von Katte
Characters: Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great, Hans Hermann von Katte
Additional Tags: Fluff, Idiots in Love, reading plays aloud while gazing into each others eyes
Summary:
Friedrich had started to talk to him because he had thought of him as a bit of a ditz.
And now here he was. Here he was months later, bundled up in this very same man’s blankets with a cup of hot coffee in front of him, its scent mixing with that of Katte’s French perfume.
_
Fluffy One Shot about one traitorous Crown Prince and the sycophant he accidentally fell for.
Tiny Terror FW: The Sequel
Date: 2022-10-18 10:56 am (UTC)Jean Philippe Rebour, on th eother hand, provided (FW) not so much with factual knowledge as with a moral christianity. His diligently kept diaries describe his efforts to educate the Crown Prince in all details, and one is forced to consider him a candidate for martyrdom based on it. Friedrich Wilhelm's first impression of him was that he was "too clean for a schoolmaster". If Calvinism would include saints, he certainly would be a candidate for canonization. Maybe Rebour was motivated by a spark of mystic stoicism, or simply Calvinistic determinism. The fact remains that Friedrich Wilhme didn't just, as is an eternal phenomenon among teenagers, have no interest in learning, but also was impudent, lacking focus, malicious, and often physically agressive, which resulted repeatedly in his educator ending up with black and blue spots. Besides, his student declared in all sincerity that he would cut his teacher's head off after his ascension to the throne.
Pedagocic experts, who existed even then, probably could have given some interesting advice on how to cope with such an unruly student. Rebour found the answer in his religion, his Calvinistic Christianity, with which he tried to tame the Crown Prince. The Calvinistic God Rebeur taught did not simply punish any transgression of his laws in deep anger, but also had made his choice of who would be saved and who would be damned for all eternity, and he became the young Crown Prince's schoolmaster. The reality of this eternal choice of grace and damnation hung like a Damocles sword above the young Crown Prince. Despite the choice was known only to God himself, therw were certain certae notitiae, certain hints which could allow some conclusions on one's own state of being chosen. These certae notitiae were based on virtuous conduct and faithful adherence to the teachings of the church.
Rebeur connected his student's flaws, the arrogant violent temper to this teaching, and young Friedrich Wilhelm quickly realised that his notitae were pointing towards eternal damnation.
From the essay "Religion und Politik in Preußen: Friedrich Wilhelm I. und der Pietismus" by Hans J. Hillerbrand. Now, again, this isn't new to us, we've talked about how hardcore Calvinism and determinism was how Tiny Terror FW's teacher(s) were trying to get him in line, with life long consequences. (Up to and including the way Katte's Punctae mysteriously include a "And btw, Fritz, determinism is of the devi!" paragraph.) And I wouldn't have wanted to teach young FW for the world, plus short of scaring the hell out of FW via religion, it's difficult to see what Rebeur could have done, given Tiny Terror FW was the Crown Prince and he evidently wasn't allowed to fight back when physically attacked. But I still wouldn't nominate him for sainthood, given his religious fears probably contributed to making FW even more dangerous for everybody else...
Re: Tiny Terror FW: The Sequel
Date: 2022-10-20 01:45 am (UTC)For example, there's an entire essay about the way FW was presented by historians by Thomas Stamm-Kuhlmann which is very critical about said historians' dismissal of Wilhelmine's memoirs as being too biased to be worth considering and of the acceptance of the self stylizing of Prussian monarchs (both FW and Fritz) as having to do their grim duty and suffering the most for it.
Oh, good for Stamm-Kuhlmann!
Despite the choice was known only to God himself, therw were certain certae notitiae, certain hints which could allow some conclusions on one's own state of being chosen. These certae notitiae were based on virtuous conduct and faithful adherence to the teachings of the church.
Rebeur connected his student's flaws, the arrogant violent temper to this teaching, and young Friedrich Wilhelm quickly realised that his notitae were pointing towards eternal damnation.
This is interesting, thank you for the additional detail!
Up to and including the way Katte's Punctae mysteriously include a "And btw, Fritz, determinism is of the devi!" paragraph.
So while I'm sure FW's well-known opinions had something to do with the inclusion of this detail, ever since you turned up that one Hans Heinrich letter, plus the evidence that the last book Katte was reading was by Sherlock, a theologian who argued against predestination, I'm now leaning toward "Katte genuinely experienced a religious conversion/reversion to the religion of his childhood" and that his displays of piety were genuine.
But I still wouldn't nominate him for sainthood, given his religious fears probably contributed to making FW even more dangerous for everybody else...
Lol, well, while he was certainly martyred, and getting Tiny Terror FW to behave even a little bit was surely a miracle :P, yeah, I agree it didn't improve the situation at all. Turns out religious fanatics can be awful people too, Rebeur! (My wife got to the podcast episode on the Crusades yesterday, which came with a trigger warning by the podcaster, and now she's like, "...I don't wanna listen to any more history of the Germans.")
Re: Tiny Terror FW: The Sequel
Date: 2022-10-20 08:01 am (UTC)Re: Katte, I agree that he was most likely sincere, but the letter to his father I think does not have anything about predestination in it. Not having read Sherlock, I don‘t know how dominant the predestination problem was in the book Katte read. But I do know it was a particular interest/childhood horror of FW‘s, hence my assumption that chances are Pastor Müller might have said something along the line of „and if you want to do the Crown Prince and your immortal soul a really big favor, tell him that predestination is of the devil“ on FW‘s behalf.
getting Tiny Terror FW to behave even a little bit was surely a miracle
Mind you, I‘m sure more than one student would have said something like „when I grow up, I‘m so going to behead you1“ to their teacher if they could have, but with Tiny Terror FW, one had to be aware - Rebeur certainly was - that he would have the power to. Also, let‘s not forget Prussian Severus Snape, i.e. F1‘s teacher Danckelmann, who wasn‘t beheaded but first elevated and then cast down and imprisoned, a contemporary precedence I don‘t doubt FW‘s teachers were aware.
The amazing thing is that his mother and grandmother seem to have thought Tiny Terror FW was adorable, for the most part, and that he did make some efforts on their behalf (posting for that David painting, finding paintings for Sophie Charlotte when he was in the Netherlands as a teenager, writing good boy letters to Sophie). I would speculate about the only child syndrome, but while that certainly came into it, Tiny Terror FW spent so much time in Hannover as a boy with his cousins that it only applies in that there were no alternate heirs and he knew it, not in that he didn‘t know what was like to be with other children his own rank.
G2: As if. I was always of higher rank. Rule Britannia!
Re: Tiny Terror FW: The Sequel
Date: 2022-10-21 12:47 pm (UTC)Oh, for sure! The context is just that the alternatives weren't "history of the Crusades from other perspectives," but "other, non-history things she was listening to." And as it turns out, this only lasted 1 day and she is now on to Henry V. ;)
Not having read Sherlock, I don‘t know how dominant the predestination problem was in the book Katte read.
I haven't read it either, but when you first found it, I remember going and browsing it, and finding that 1) it is about the nature of providence, and 2) reconciling providence and free will, i.e. no predestination.
So while I agree that FW was on Katte's/Pastor Müller's mind, it's also possible that if Fritz and Katte had been chatting about their pro-predestination beliefs for the last year, and Katte was having a religious experience and reading specifically about providence, he might have sincerely wanted to change Fritz's mind too. He doesn't say anything specifically about predestination to Hans Heinrich, no, but that letter convinced me that his religious feelings were sincere, and so if he was reading Sherlock, it probably wasn't for show, but reflected what was really important to him in those last hours.
G2: As if. I was always of higher rank. Rule Britannia!
Hee! G2 vs FW never gets old. :D
Our first boy didn't make it beyond a year, but tiny terror FW? Couldn't keep him down.
Re: Tiny Terror FW: The Sequel
Date: 2022-10-23 08:46 pm (UTC)Thanks! I do track the post, so I literally do see all the comments, but sometimes I am swamped with other stuff or less interested in some topic, and then I just skim very quickly and don't actually read everything.
Re: Tiny Terror FW: The Sequel
Date: 2022-10-22 05:42 am (UTC)Hence my lifting of that line wholesale for writing a Punctae-centric fic :D
Also, let‘s not forget Prussian Severus Snape, i.e. F1‘s teacher Danckelmann, who wasn‘t beheaded but first elevated and then cast down and imprisoned, a contemporary precedence I don‘t doubt FW‘s teachers were aware.
Ohhhhh, right!
there were no alternate heirs and he knew it, not in that he didn‘t know what was like to be with other children his own rank.
G2: As if. I was always of higher rank. Rule Britannia!
ahahahaha!
Re: Tiny Terror FW: The Sequel
Date: 2022-10-22 05:40 am (UTC)Yay!
His diligently kept diaries describe his efforts to educate the Crown Prince in all details, and one is forced to consider him a candidate for martyrdom based on it.
I did laugh at this.
but also was impudent, lacking focus, malicious, and often physically agressive, which resulted repeatedly in his educator ending up with black and blue spots. Besides, his student declared in all sincerity that he would cut his teacher's head off after his ascension to the throne.
Ack!
Rebeur connected his student's flaws, the arrogant violent temper to this teaching, and young Friedrich Wilhelm quickly realised that his notitae were pointing towards eternal damnation.
Oooooof.
And I wouldn't have wanted to teach young FW for the world, plus short of scaring the hell out of FW via religion, it's difficult to see what Rebeur could have done, given Tiny Terror FW was the Crown Prince and he evidently wasn't allowed to fight back when physically attacked.
Yeeeeah, that's a good point. I was going to say that it's hard enough when parenting/teaching to try to use discipline/pedagogic techniques that are better for the kid but slower and more work (I do sometimes reflect that gosh, it seems like it would be a lot easier just to instill obedience by fear... of course I don't do it, but it makes a lot more sense to me now that people do do that), but that's a really good point that he honestly didn't even have a lot of options at all.
Re: Tiny Terror FW: The Sequel
Date: 2022-10-23 10:12 am (UTC)humiliationmethods, and telling his charges they wouldn't get to see their parent if they behaved badly. But somehow I don't see this working with FW.Of course, with royal children it always depended on how much leaveway you as a teacher were given. You might recall that FW's instructions to his sons' governors were "never leave them alone, don't swear but be more of a buddy than a supervisor, no sex talk and no sex, always prayer, but don't threaten them with me, threaten them with their mother, I want to be the good parent! And no Latin, minimal French literature, just enough history to rule the country, and no predestination!" With the result that his younger sons got a gay teacher and his oldest got several who did what they could to provide more Roman history and French literature than FW permitted, which in turn led to FW's sons liking their teachers way more than either F1 or FW liked theirs, but then with FW as a parent, and Fritz getting army drills from childhood onwards, all his teachers probably felt no need to use "discipline" anyway and had the advantage that he regarded knowledge as something forbidden and alluring.
Re: Tiny Terror FW: The Sequel
Date: 2022-10-24 09:11 am (UTC)threaten them with their mother, I want to be the good parent!
That will never not be facepalmy.
Re: Tiny Terror FW: The Sequel
Date: 2022-10-24 03:41 pm (UTC)(That the teachers he picked were actually beloved by his sons is part of Jochen Klepper's argument in his novel about FW that FW did know his children and did know what he was doing, choosing people like Keyserling and Duhan because he knew they'd be kind and fun for Fritz to be with. (Klepper wrote in the 1930s under Nazi censorship, so gay governors for the younger kids don't make the cut.)
Re: Tiny Terror FW: The Sequel
Date: 2022-11-03 04:26 am (UTC)Re: Tiny Terror FW: The Sequel
Date: 2022-11-04 09:16 pm (UTC)Re: Tiny Terror FW: The Sequel
Date: 2022-11-03 04:25 am (UTC)Oof. I mean, I guess it's the ideal for knowledge to be alluring, but it's just so weirdly backwards that it is the forbidden fruit, here. (When I was writing the Katte fic, Mildred pointed out how anyone else would have loved to have had a son like Fritz...)
Re: Tiny Terror FW: The Sequel
Date: 2022-10-23 08:43 pm (UTC)OMG. It is so weird to me with children who have that much power, or at least know that they will have such power when they are adults. Like, children are literally so immature! It's not like adults can actually be trusted with that kind of power, either, but children... It's a scary thought.
Re: Tiny Terror FW: The Sequel
Date: 2022-10-24 03:49 pm (UTC)This said, being a royal child was no guarantee of being free of abuse (and I don't just mean by the parents). Wilhelmine's first governess, Madame Leti, was so brutal to her that her brother's governess told Queen Sophia Dorothea that if Leti wasn't replaced, Wilhelmine would be crippled for life (and thus not marriagable anymore). A while ago Mildred & self read a book about servant/aristocrat 18th century relationships, which while focused on France probably applied to the rest of Europe as well, and there was often a vicious circle going on where the servants, especially the female ones, were abused by the adult masters and mistresses and then took their revenge by brutalizing the aristocratic children, who in turn...