cahn | 18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 38

Gonna go ahead and make this post even though Yuletide is coming...

But in the meantime, there has been some fic in the fandom posted!

Holding His Space (2503 words) by felisnocturna
Chapters: 1/1
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF, 18th Century CE Frederician RPF
Rating: Teen And Up Audiences
Warnings: Creator Chose Not To Use Archive Warnings
Relationships: Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf/Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Characters: Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf, Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Additional Tags: Protectiveness, Domestic, Character Study
Summary:

Five times Fredersdorf has to stay behind - and one time Friedrich doesn't leave.

Using People (3392 words) by prinzsorgenfrei
Chapters: 1/1
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF
Rating: General Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Relationships: Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great/Hans Hermann von Katte
Characters: Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great, Hans Hermann von Katte
Additional Tags: Fluff, Idiots in Love, reading plays aloud while gazing into each others eyes
Summary:

Friedrich had started to talk to him because he had thought of him as a bit of a ditz.
And now here he was. Here he was months later, bundled up in this very same man’s blankets with a cup of hot coffee in front of him, its scent mixing with that of Katte’s French perfume.
_
Fluffy One Shot about one traitorous Crown Prince and the sycophant he accidentally fell for.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

selenak

I‘m glad the Ottonia podcast is so good! I‘ve written some posts on Adelheid and Teophanu in the past, if I‘m not in the train, I‘ll try to find them for you and Cahn, because these ladies were fascinating. Also I was in the Magdeburg cathedral where Otto the Great with his first (English) wife is buried.

Re: Henry the often forgiven younger brother - well, the main reason why Gaston d‘Orleans got away with all those conspiracies was that until future Louis XIV was finally born after 22 years of marriage, he was the next and only legitimate male heir of the Bourbon line. Bearing in mind that Louis XIII was only the second Bourbon king ever, not ending the dynasty prematurely is a good reason for not killing, permanently harming or punishing Gaston in a way that made him unable to take over as King. Of course, that safety net for Gaston expired the moment Anne produced future Louis XIV and Philippe the Gay, and I don‘t think it‘s a coincidence that Gaston only got entangled in one more conspiracy after that, and only peripherally (the Cinq Mars one), instead of starting them left right and center.

(Cahn, for cross connection: Gaston‘s younger daughter was the enterprising lady who got married very much against her will to Cosimo „the Bigot“ Medici, produced some kids (including last of the Medici Gian Gastone) and through years and years of resistance and outrageous behavior finally managed to achieve her goal of returning to France. Gaston‘s oldest daughter was the „Grande Mademoiselle“ who pissed off Cousin Louis by participating in the Fronde, is referenced a couple of times in Charles II related books because his mother wanted them to marry which both parties were less than kean on, and is Angelique‘s friend and patroness in the early Angelique novels.)

Did Ottonian Henry have such a safety net? I can‘t remember when Adelheid‘s kids were born, but I imagine he might have had it in the Eaditha era of Otto‘s life?

Heinrich: If only I thought I could have gotten prestige and some important responsibilities to occupy me.

Catherine: I tried to make you my satrap!

Dutch: We tried to make you stadtholder!

Poles: We tried too!

Fritz von Steuben: Heinrich for ~~President~~ King of America!

Fritz of Prussia: *famous historical quote about how to treat Princes of the Blood waving the banner of independence*

Oh, speaking of Matilda, she founded the Abbey of Quedlinburg to hold her husband's (Henry the Fowler) remains, she was later canonized, and she started the tradition of princess-abbesses of Quedlinburg. Of which Amalie was the second-to-last one, and apparently, one of Ulrike's daughters was the last. My studies have now bookended the Abbey of Quedlinburg.

I knew about Ulrike‘s daughter being the last (I think Lehndorff mentions it somewhere - that she‘s the new Abbess, that is -, but didn‘t know or had forgotten Matilda had founded the abbey. Go you!

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Also I was in the Magdeburg cathedral where Otto the Great with his first (English) wife is buried.

You Europeans and your unfair advantages. :P

Did Ottonian Henry have such a safety net? I can‘t remember when Adelheid‘s kids were born, but I imagine he might have had it in the Eaditha era of Otto‘s life?

He did not! I mean, it's hard to say with medieval birthdates being so uncertain, but by the time Otto inherited, there was at least one other brother who was still living when Henry started rebelling.

Okay, so, it goes like this:

Henry the Fowler: *is king*

Henry the Fowler: *has a bunch of sons from different marriages*

Henry the Fowler: Listen up, nobles. I'm going to die soon, and you're going to do something that's going to be very unpopular: you're going to let my one son Otto inherit everything. I know we Carolingian types generally treat our kingdom like private property and divide it up, and that kind of inheritance pattern is how the Holy Roman Empire will someday end up with approximately one zillion principalities, but Otto is going to inherit everything after I die, you hear me?

Henry the Fowler: *dies*

Otto: *is elected king*

Thankmar: But I'm Dad's oldest son!

Otto: From his first marriage, and that was declared null and void on the grounds that he never got the dispensation he needed to marry a woman who was about to become a nun. Then he married my mother, who was from a way more prominent family. You're disinherited, bro.

Henry: I'm younger than Otto, but I was born after Dad became king. Since there are many competing rules about who inherits, and one of them is that being "born in the purple" gives you precedence over older brothers who were born before Dad became king, I say that makes me king!

Brun: Hi, I'm four. [ETA: Looking more closely, four when Henry makes the succession arrangements--probably, medieval chronology is uncertain, but this is when Otto is first called king in our sources--eleven when Henry the Fowler dies and Otto inherits.

cahn, making your succession arrangements and having the heir promoted to king 6 years before you die is like Joseph II getting elected King of the Romans and having to do the whole coronation in Frankfurt while FS was still alive: it's how you (attempt to) secure the succession when there aren't hard and fast rules that your son inherits.]

Ludolf: I am Otto's oldest son, already born when he ascends the throne.

Otto: *successively pisses everyone off*

Thankmar: *rebels*

Thankmar: *is killed*

Henry: My turn to rebel!

At this point, there is at least one brother (Brun) and one son (Ludolf) to inherit if Otto has Henry killed. Instead, they do the whole tearfully-embracing public penance and reconciliation thing, and Henry gets a dukedom (Lotharingia--roughly Lorraine).

Then he loses the duchy, and rebels again, and tries to have older brother Otto assassinated at Quedlinburg. This also fails, but they go through the medieval penance-and-reconciliation ritual again, and a few years later, he gets the duchy of Bavaria, where he rules like a king.

Fritz von Steuben: Heinrich for President King of America!

How could I forget this one!

Fritz of Prussia: *famous historical quote about how to treat Princes of the Blood waving the banner of independence*

Yep, the same quote I was thinking of. And I've always loved your snarky comment that it sure wasn't AW or Ferdinand he was talking about. :P

Edited Date: 2022-09-30 07:10 pm (UTC)

From:

selenak

And I've always loved your snarky comment that it sure wasn't AW or Ferdinand he was talking about.

Well, Ferdinand has always shown him friendship. When he wasn't being the worst of the Hohenzollern. :)

More seriously, I always thought that Fritz would have agreed with Thomas Mann who mid feuding with his brother Heinrich wrote to his publisher "I suppose you've heard about my quarrel with my brother - I mean of course my older brother; in the higher sense I have only one brother. The other one is a nice fellow one can't argue with". With the qualification that Fritz was fond enough of AW as far as it goes for most of his life, with unresolved FW related issues that only bore fruit during the big disaster. Still, there is a reason why even as early as the early 1750s, when AW and Heinrich did their rpg game about invading Saxony and war with GB, there was no question as to which one played Fritz.

Also, I found one of the Adelheid and Teophanu posts again. And here is my Magdeburg pic spam, but alas no Otto related photo.

From:

cahn

Well, Ferdinand has always shown him friendship.

Heeeee, that will never not be funny!

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Gaston‘s younger daughter was the enterprising lady who got married very much against her will to Cosimo „the Bigot“ Medici, produced some kids (including last of the Medici Gian Gastone)

And that is why Gian Gastone's name was "Gastone", which was, to say the least, not a traditional Medici name.

From:

selenak

Quite. :)

From:

cahn

Of course, that safety net for Gaston expired the moment Anne produced future Louis XIV and Philippe the Gay, and I don‘t think it‘s a coincidence that Gaston only got entangled in one more conspiracy after that, and only peripherally (the Cinq Mars one), instead of starting them left right and center.

Heh, so it sounds like he was very aware of his safety net...?

From:

selenak

Oh, to be sure. He was arrogant and not the smartest guy ever, but neither was he dumb enough to believe he could still pull these stunts once he was no longer the sole Bourbon heir. Let's not forget, brother Louis and Richelieu had sent Mom (Marie de' Medici) into exile, so Gaston would have been under no illusion that being a close family member alone would have saved him.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Whereas in Ottonian times:

Henry, brother of Otto I: Is *not* the heir, gets forgiven multiple times.

Henry the Quarrelsome, son of above Henry and first cousin of Otto II: *is* the heir (okay, there's another cousin, but no sons or brothers or uncles), gets locked up pronto, stripped of his lands, and locked up again when he escapes.

He's still locked up when Otto II dies, and then he makes his bid for power against Theophanu and Adalheid that you can read about in

selenak's post,

cahn.

I'm thinking that being the next heir wasn't a safety net in the 10th century the way it was in Bourbon times, because the rules of succession weren't set in stone. When brother Henry was rebelling, there had been exactly one (1) attempt to transfer a kingdom intact to the oldest son, and that was exactly what Henry was rebelling against. His and Otto's father, Henry the Fowler, had been elected king despite the fact that he wasn't part of the previous ruling family (and had rebelled against the previous king!), and the previous king, Konrad, had a brother, Eberhard, who was still alive and well!

So the rules here are just different.