cahn | 18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 36

Starting a couple of comments earlier than usual to mention there are a couple of new salon fics! These probably both need canon knowledge.

felis ficlets on siblings!

Siblings (541 words) by felisnocturna
Chapters: 2/2
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF
Rating: General Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Characters: Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great, Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf, August Wilhelm von Preußen | Augustus William of Prussia (1722-1758), Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia (1709-1758)
Summary:

Three Fills for the 2022 Three Sentence Ficathon.

Chapter One: Protective Action / Babysitting at Rheinsberg (Frederick/Fredersdorf, William+Henry+Ferdinand)
Chapter Two: Here Be Lions (Wilhelmine)

Unsent Letters fic by me:

Letters for a Dead King (1981 words) by raspberryhunter
Chapters: 1/1
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF
Rating: General Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Relationships: Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great & Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen (1726-1802)
Characters: Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen | Henry of Prussia (1726-1802)
Additional Tags: Epistolary, Love/Hate, Talking To Dead People, Canonical Character Death, Dysfunctional Family
Summary:

Just because one's king and brother is dead doesn't mean one has to stop writing to him.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

mildred_of_midgard

OOOHHH. Thank you! Selena saves the day! I was starting to wonder if cousin du Rosey and Marschall von Bieberstein were related.

Okay, so I'm still a little confused. There are two separate inheritances? Hers (from her parents) and his? Because she was rich before he died unexpectedly, right?

Also, I seem to recall Fontane said Ludolf was supposed to pick up the rich heiress for one of his brothers, and ended up marrying her instead. I guess Staatsminister von Katte (who never married) was the one who was supposed to marry her, and then he was screwed over by his older brother?

"Never let fraternal ties get in the way of grabbing a fortune," said every Katte ever. (

cahn, remember that Katte's two younger half-brothers killed each other in a duel over Hans Heinrich's fortune, then everyone pretended it was over a woman.)

From:

selenak

Yes, two separate fortunes are as I understand it, i.e. hers is independent from her brother's. Good point about Ludolf getting his brother's intended heiress - maybe that's why the Staatsminister ends up with Marschall von Bieberstein's money, i.e. if Marschall died without making a will to the contrary, the money surely goes to his next relation, which would mean cousin Du Rosey, which means her husband Ludolf, so maybe Ludolf wanted to make good weather with his screwed over brother and said, look, I'll let you have THAT fortune.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Huh, yeah, that would make sense!

In today's episode of the Katte family soap opera... :P

From:

mildred_of_midgard

It's also possible that, since I think we don't know the exact date of the du Rosey marriage, that Ludolf hasn't snatched her up yet, and everyone just *thinks* Staatsminister is going to get lucky. Maybe Ludolf the Nefarious got both fortunes!

Btw, even with this explanation, it did seem a bit weird to me that Lehndorff was so "I'm going to be rich!" over being made the heir to a healthy 23-yo's fortune (it was only the sudden smallpox that killed Marschall before he had time to make a will), but then I remembered that in the 18th century, nobles living on credit in the name of the fortunes they're *going* to inherit was a thing. Do you think that's what Lehndorff's reasoning was?

From:

selenak

it did seem a bit weird to me that Lehndorff was so "I'm going to be rich!" over being made the heir to a healthy 23-yo's fortune

Oh, same, since there is a big difference to having prospects to inherit from a rich aunt or someone like that. However, it's worth remembering that at this point, Lehndorff is a younger son - he's the youngest of his family, and his brother who will die after Hochkirch is still alive and the owner of the Steinort estates - , and has just fallen in with a hard partying crowd. That must have been expensive, even if we assume the Divine Trio paid for much. In the normal course of things, Lehndorff's brother would have produced an heir and Lehndorff would never have inherited the estate, and Lehndorff is given to hyperbole. (See also "Achilles", or "prospect of the highest office" courtesy of FW2 liking him. I mean, come on. Heinrich might have had some reason to expect getting a top job from his nephew before the unpleasant awakening, but Lehndorff?) So what I can see happening is this:

1) Lehndorff lives in high style on the prospect of a rich marriage
2) The marriage falls through; however, Cousin Marschall, whom he has befriended, says something cheerful like "hey, no sweat, tell you what, until I get married you're going to be my heir, tell the creditors that"
3) Lehndorff takes this far more seriously than Marshall means it. (And yes, tells his creditors that.) It's not that he expects or wants Marschall to die, but once Marschall does die unexpectedly, he fully expects being the heir and is is rapidly disillusioned.

Also, all practical considerations aside, getting money works as a sign of affection in Lehndorff's subconscious, I suspect. I mean, he's not just the youngest kid but the one who is crippled and deemed a disappointment by Mum, who keeps giving him a hard time well into adulthood, and raised by Grandmum until she dies. Being made someone's heir = this person thinks you're important, you count, you mean something to them. I think that's also another reason why Meseberg for Kaphengst drives him crazy. He's never 100% sure that he means something important to Heinrich, because Heinrich never did something like that to him, or even something less spectacular but still out of the ordinary. Heinrich keeps inviting him and writing to him, and when they do quarrel, they make up, but Heinrich's favorites, from Reisewitz onwards who has made away with some of Heinrich's money in a bad way, the favourites get forgiven outrageous behavior and get extraordinary gifts, and Lehndorff, who undoubtedly means it when swearing he'd do anything for Heinrich, gets holiday invites. (And okay, in their old age permission to live in Heinrich's Berlin residence for free with his family because he can't afford a town house anymore.) So money is money but it is also independence and affection and counting instead of being deemed a disappointment.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Yes, this all makes a lot of sense and is very sad. I'm glad I'm not an 18th century noble.

From:

cahn

Oh awwww. Poor Lehndorff. I find that very plausible.

Also, all practical considerations aside, getting money works as a sign of affection in Lehndorff's subconscious, I suspect

I mean! He's not wrong! Meseberg for Kaphengst and no palaces for Lehndorff does mean something about how Heinrich feels about the two of them! ~~or at least about sex with the two of them~~

So money is money but it is also independence and affection and counting instead of being deemed a disappointment.

:( <3 I'm glad that he did have a family he cared for deeply, even if it wasn't Heinrich.

From:

selenak

I mean! He's not wrong! Meseberg for Kaphengst and no palaces for Lehndorff does mean something about how Heinrich feels about the two of them!

Well, yes. And let's not forget that Heinrich was willing to postpone his much longed for first trip to Paris, something he had spent literally a life time looking forward to, in order to pay off Kaphengst's debts.

What exactly Heinrich felt for Lehndorff is one big mystery anyway, because in terms of direct statements, we only have that one snarky remark in old age after an unsuccessful visit where Lehndorff complained about the last of the boyfriends, the Comte. Which is hardly representative of the entire relationship. Otoh, as Lehndorff consoles himself now and then, the fact remains that the boyfriends came and went, and Lehndorff stayed. Heinrich was quite capable of cutting off people when he didn't want to remain in contact with them anymore, no matter how close they were at one time (as Kalckreuth could testify), and he never cut ties with Lehndorff, he kept inviting him, hanging out with him and writing to him, and since Lehndorff was never anyone important at court, it's hard to see any benefit of this for Heinrich except Lehndorff's company. (Even if you assume he used Lehndorff as a good source for court gossip, well, that ended in 1775 when Lehndorff retired from his post as Chamberlain.) So clearly Lehndorff must have meant something to him. What, though, we'll never know!

I'm glad that he did have a family he cared for deeply, even if it wasn't Heinrich.

Me too, and that he was able to have a harmonious relationship with both his wives, and not only was the type of father to care deeply for his children but also the type who takes into account what those children want in life (thus when Karl whom Lehndorff has imagined as a scholar and envoy, in short, the kind of career he himself would have liked to have had, prefers the military, the military it is), despite having had a strained relationship with his mother, a dead father, and a physical handicap proves that you don't have to turn into a bastard to others if life treats you badly in some departments.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

So clearly Lehndorff must have meant something to him. What, though, we'll never know!

Why oh why did Meusel either not publish their correspondence or publish it in a place so obscure I haven't found it yet?!

From:

luzula

Awww! I am not keeping up with everything you're posting, but I am having some sympathy with the bits I'm reading about Lehndorff, over-the-top though he is. I mean, unrequited love must be so much harder to get over if you actually get to have sex once in a while with the object of your crush!

And I'm glad to hear that Lehndorff was actually a decent person when it came to his wives and children!

From:

selenak

If you want to check out more Lehndorff, is my original write up for the first three volumes of his diaries, and here is the one for volume IV.

I mean, unrequited love must be so much harder to get over if you actually get to have sex once in a while with the object of your crush!

And an argument can be made Lehndorff, despite two wives and at least one other loved boyfriend, never really got over him. I mean, it's one thing to write when you're in your twenties and newly in love stuff like this: I rise early. The Prince writes a letter to me which makes me melt into tears. I jump on a horse and want to rush to him. When I see his carriage from afar, I hide behind a house; for my heart would have burst into pieces if I had seen him. I go to Schönhausen, where I walk full of sadness. I return home and write a very sad letter to another person.* I could never have believed that it is possible to be so devoted to another man. But what a man it is I have to leave! In pagan times, they would have made him a god, in our time, all who know him build altars to him in their hearts.

(Explanation: Heinrich has to leave Berlin for a while to attend brother Fritz in nearby Potsdam. Really, that's all.)

And quite another to write over thirty years (arguments and reconciliations included), two marriages and another boyfriend on Lehndorff's part vs lots of boyfriends on Heinrich's later an entry like:

From there, I hurry home, change my clothing and jump, after I had talked for a moment with my wife and her visitor, into the post carriage. In order to avoid the heat, I drive through the entire night and arrive on the 6th in the evening at Rheinsberg. I always experience a particular sensation whenever I get close to this charming place, when I think of the fact that in an hour, in half an hour, in a quarter of an hour I shall see Prince Heinrich again, who when it comes down to it has been for as long as I can remember the Prince whom I love best. I had all reason to be satisfied with his greeting. I cannot adequately render the emotion that moves inside me, but I am his, utterly and completely. (Ich bin auf jeden Fall ganz sein eigen.)

What his wives made of this, I have no idea, but unlike the royal brothers or some other bisexual or gay men of his era, he did like being married to both of them. His first wife and all their children (four in all) dying makes for heartrendering reading, and unsurprisingly, he was extra worried whenever the children from his second marriage got sick. Those passages are among the most moving of his diaries.

From:

cahn

Ohh, yeah, that's very good point. And if you look at Selena's previous writeup that she linked, he did fall in love with another guy, Charles Hotham Jr., and tried to return to England with him (Fritz doesn't give him permission), and presumably if he'd done that then he would have gotten over Heinrich and stayed over him! (It sounds like he was getting over him for a while as it was.. until Hotham left, and Heinrich was still around.)

From:

cahn

Heinrich was quite capable of cutting off people when he didn't want to remain in contact with them anymore, no matter how close they were at one time (as Kalckreuth could testify), and he never cut ties with Lehndorff, he kept inviting him, hanging out with him and writing to him, and since Lehndorff was never anyone important at court, it's hard to see any benefit of this for Heinrich except Lehndorff's company.

<3 I'm glad that Heinrich and Lehndorff stayed friends and that they meant something to each other. Even if we don't know exactly what and even if it wasn't exactly what Lehndorff wanted.

proves that you don't have to turn into a bastard to others if life treats you badly in some departments.

<3333