cahn | 18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 36

Starting a couple of comments earlier than usual to mention there are a couple of new salon fics! These probably both need canon knowledge.

felis ficlets on siblings!

Siblings (541 words) by felisnocturna
Chapters: 2/2
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF
Rating: General Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Characters: Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great, Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf, August Wilhelm von Preußen | Augustus William of Prussia (1722-1758), Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia (1709-1758)
Summary:

Three Fills for the 2022 Three Sentence Ficathon.

Chapter One: Protective Action / Babysitting at Rheinsberg (Frederick/Fredersdorf, William+Henry+Ferdinand)
Chapter Two: Here Be Lions (Wilhelmine)

Unsent Letters fic by me:

Letters for a Dead King (1981 words) by raspberryhunter
Chapters: 1/1
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF
Rating: General Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Relationships: Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great & Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen (1726-1802)
Characters: Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen | Henry of Prussia (1726-1802)
Additional Tags: Epistolary, Love/Hate, Talking To Dead People, Canonical Character Death, Dysfunctional Family
Summary:

Just because one's king and brother is dead doesn't mean one has to stop writing to him.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only | Expand All

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Researching Brühl's diplomacy prompted me to finally buy and read M.S. Anderson's The War of the Austrian Succession. Since summarizing books is like pulling teeth for me (still envy you, Selena!), and since no one here cares about military history anyway, I'm just going to pull out some tidbits that made me raise my eyebrows and that may be of interest to salon.

Usual caveat: except where I note I was able to confirm in the Political Correspondence, these claims are only as trustworthy as this unknown author.

*

When Fritz came to power, he was interested in pursuing the Hohenzollern claims to Jülich and Berg, to the point that he proposed an entire alliance with Russia just to get them to support his claims. [Confirmed in the Polit. Corr.]

*

So I had always heard that Fritz refused to improve the roads in Prussia, because bad roads would make it harder for people to leave, but Anderson tells me he's nothing if not consistent:

In Prussia, by contrast, Frederick II, who feared that good maps might help an enemy, discouraged the survey begun by Field-Marshal von Schmettau in 1750.

*

We always remember that FW and Charles VI died in the same year, but what's easy to forget is that Tsarina Anna Ivanovna (she of the ice wedding) died 8 days after Charles VI. Since Russia had been allied with Austria and was likely to *actually* enforce the Pragmatic Sanction, and since her heir was a 2-month old baby (Ivan VI, who ends up in lifetime prison along with the rest of his family, including dad who is EC's brother,

cahn), invading Silesia was a lot more dangerous between October 20 (Charles VI's death) and October 28 (Anna's) than it was after.

In his Histoire de mon temps, Fritz said that Anna's death was the deciding factor in his decision to go ahead with the Silesian invasion. Anderson points out that this memoir was written with the benefit of hindsight, and it's unclear how much he can be trusted. (However, Anderson seems to be confusing the 1775 edition with the 1746 composition, and thinks it was written long after it was. That said, he's right that Fritz is not an utterly reliable source on his own motives.)

*

When the Holy Roman Emperor recognized Hanover as an electorate in 1692, it was on the condition that the Hanovers always use their vote for the Habsburg candidate. However, it was realized (by whom? the author does not say) in the 1730s that the Hanovers might decide that the failure of the male line exempted them from this.

*

Heinrich apparently went to Dresden with Fritz in January 1742 and met Brühl. Salon's Frederician chronology confirms that 1742 is the year Heinrich became Fritz's AD, so while I can't confirm his presence in Dresden, the timing checks out.

*

During the War of the Austrian Succession, MT apparently dreamed not only of restoring Alsace and Lorraine to the Holy Roman Empire, but Burgundy! Have not been able to confirm this one, but if so--talk about archaic claims!

*

After MT's allies the British win the Battle of Dettingen in 1743:

Maria Theresa, who was in Linz when she heard of the victory, made a triumphal entry into her capital: at the Hofburg she was greeted by her son, the two-year-old Archduke Joseph, who waved a little flag from a window.

Awww.

*

End of 1745: the Jacobite rebellion is underway and showing signs of success, the French are considering sending an invasion, and--

The duc de Richelieu, who was to command it, was equipped with 3,000 copies of a manifesto drawn up by Voltaire himself, to be distributed when the invasion force got ashore.

Voltaire?! I mean, 1745 is when he's court historian and writing panegyrics about the French victory at Fontenoy, so the timing checks out, but I did not realize or had forgotten he was writing pro-Jacobite pamphlets for Louis too!

*

The French foreign minister, the Marquis d'Argenson (friend of Voltaire), proposed a federation of Italian states that would be free of foreign intervention.

cahn, this is relevant because much of the War of the Austrian Succession is being fought over Habsburg and Bourbon territory in Italy.

According to d'Argenson's proposal, any foreign princes that acquired a principality in Italy would be required to give up any other territory or alliegances. The Holy Roman Empire would cease to have any authority in Italy. The Italians would develop independently and make their own political decisions.

I was not expecting anything quite this proto-nationalist in the 1740s in Italy, and certainly not from the French!

Unfortunately, neither was anyone else in the 1740s. Everyone went, "What? No," and life carried on in Italy with foreign powers controlling most of the states either de jure or de facto.

Even the Italians thought this was a bad idea. Largely as it was considered better to have two or three foreign powers in your peninsula than one with a monopoly, and if France withdrew and pushed the Habsburgs out, that just left Spain. And nobody wanted Spain (this is Philip V and Isabella Farnese, who have *ambitions*) to have control of all Italy.

But I thought it was super interesting to see this proposal this early.

*

Speaking of proposals I was surprised to see, Anderson writes that in the Netherlands in 1747:

Popular Orangist feeling, centred on the landward provinces and relatively pro-British, was now in the ascendant; and demands for the restoration of the stadtholderate were becoming irresistible. The States-General, faced by the growing menace of an Orangist seizure of power, even in desperation thought for a moment of offering the office of stadtholder to Frederick II; but he inevitably and wisely refused to have anything to do with the idea which, he pointed out, meant embroiling himself with both Britain and France.

Fritz as stadtholder of the Netherlands?!

Then I followed the footnote to the Polit. Corr., and found something even more interesting. Here's Fritz's May 1747 refusal, Google translated from the French:

I received your dispatch of the 12th of this month. Although I am always very glad to learn that I have a good number of partisans in Holland and that the unjust prejudices which have previously been held against me have been changed there, however, if it is true that some of the Principal Regents had the idea of offering the stadtholdership of the province of Holland to one of my brothers, on condition that I had to make war on France, I want to tell you that this idea would not have accommodated me at all, and that I would not have entered into negotiations on it, since firstly my State would have drawn no advantage from such an establishment of one of my brothers, and that secondly it would have also put me at odds with France and with England.

Anderson, you left out the most important part!!

Another missed opportunity for Heinrich, wow. And in 1747, he would have really wanted one! (

cahn: 1746 is Marwitz, 1749 is when he's desperate enough to agree to marry for more freedom. 1746-1749 are really oppressive years for Heinrich (remember that he's not even allowed to live at Rheinsberg even though it's technically his).

Hell, no, Fritz is not letting one of his brothers go be stadtholder of the Netherlands, or as Fritz called it, "wave the banner of independence."

So far, Fritz has turned down opportunities for Heinrich to become:
- Stadtholder of the Netherlands
- King of Poland
- satrap of Catherine the Great

And Heinrich turned down an opportunity to become King of America.

Man.

Also, since Fritz kept the Poland offer secret from Heinrich, and since Selena was hoping that Peter Keith never found out about Fritz's refusal to let him become ambassador to Britain just 3 months before (February 1747), I wonder if Heinrich ever found out about the stadtholder offer. (If it was mentioned in Ziebura, I have utterly forgotten.)

From:

selenak

Briefly, as I am still on my hiking in the Southern Tyrolian Alps trip:

Anna Ivanova dying as a deciding facto for Silesia 1: am reminded again of my 19th century Scottish editor of Mitchell's 18th century memoirs, who regretted James Keith didn't stay with Team Russia and went mano a mano with Fritz on the battlefield instead of fighting for him in the 7 Years War. So if Anna hadn't died, and Fritz would still have gone ahead with the invasion despite later claims to the contrary, this could have happened?

Fritz as stadtholder of the Netherlands?!

Don't forget the Hohenzollerns were using the "Prince of Orange" title already (it's among Fritz' titles in the document transferring Fredersdorf's estate to him in 1740, for example), for no better reason I can see but the Great Elector's first wife, i.e. Fritz great grandmama, having been a Princess of Orange. (Hence Oranienburg being called after her.) And remember, William of Orange (the most famous one) considered making Ludwig the youngest son of the Elector his heir much to the Elector's indignation, and then years later William considered adopting FW for a nanosecond, and I still need to read that AU where the Hohenzollern, not the Hannover cousins, get on the British throne as a result. Anyway, what I'm saying is that Fritz is hardly the first Hohenzollern to be considered for the job, relations were tight ever since the Great Elector, though according to the Elector's biographers also always filled with distrust, i.e. there was the sense that maybe one day a Hohenzollern wouldn't wait for the invitation and would just attempt to take over. Oh, and of course the first foreign trip of Hohenzollern princes traditionally went to the Netherlands (true for the Elector, F1, FW and if you don't count Strassburg for Fritz, and for Heinrich (who was there and met up with Lehndorff there when Fritz finally gave him permission in the later 1760s).

MT apparently dreamed not only of restoring Alsace and Lorraine to the Holy Roman Empire, but Burgundy! Have not been able to confirm this one, but if so--talk about archaic claims!

I'm somewhat sceptical if we're talking of actual Burgundy (including the France-Comte region), but given that the parts of Burgundy the medieval realm which now are Belgium were under Austrian control as the Spanish/Austrian Netherlands, I could see her declaring this old Habsburg heritage she has no intention of giving up, or something like that. Of course, I could be wrong, but I don't remember a claim to actual Burgundy from Stollberg-Rillinger.

Anderson, you left out the most important part!!

NO KIDDING. Of course, it's utterly unsurprising that Fritz wasn't willing to let one of his brothers (either AW or Heinrich, but given AW was next in line for the Prussian throne, Fritz had no intention of siring an alternate heir, and the Dutch would have wanted a Prince who isn't also King of Prussia, it would have had to be Heinrich, wouldn't it? As usual, I doubt anyone thought of Ferdinand) rule a realm of their own. To be fair, he was following tradition here, specifically

The Great Elector: Of course, I should have a say who rules in the Netherlands, being a prince of Orange by marriage and all, but NO WAY IS THIS GOING TO BE ONE OF MY UNFAVOURITES. And what's this about adopting him? ARE YOU IMPLYING I AM NOT A GOOD FATHER, WILLIAM?!?

I wonder if Heinrich ever found out about the stadtholder offer. (If it was mentioned in Ziebura, I have utterly forgotten.)

Same here. But I really don't think it came up during the relevant time. If Heinrich found out, then probably when he made his much delayed first foreign trip, and since Lehndorff doesn't report anything of the sort, it probably didn't happen. (Then again, Lehndorff was recently widowed and still reeling from his first wife's painful death, so he might have missed out on that bit of information.)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Don't forget the Hohenzollerns were using the "Prince of Orange" title already

I did not forget this, but what I remembered was that the Dutch were extremely nervous in the 1730s that the Hohenzollerns might actually try to assert these claims, and were accordingly doing everything they could to keep FW from getting support from other powers for Jülich and Berg, because those territories would give Prussia an increased power base in the area. So I was extremely surprised to see the Dutch actually *inviting* Fritz/his brothers! I guess a lot can change on the political front in 10 years, especially when those years include the War of the Austrian Succession.

So if Anna hadn't died, and Fritz would still have gone ahead with the invasion despite later claims to the contrary, this could have happened?

Perhaps! Though the way things played out in real life, Fritz knew he needed to keep Russia out of the war, so he pressured France to pressure Sweden to invade Russia, and that's why from 1741-1743 James Keith was busy in Finland and Russia had no opportunity to participate in the War of the Austrian Succession until Silesia was safely in Fritz's hands. So...given how long it took Russian troops to arrive in central Europe (a factor in numerous wars and treaties), and the fact that Fritz invaded Silesia in winter, he might still have managed to pull it off without having to face Keith. Sorry, Bisset!

(Also, according to Anderson, apparently part of the deal in 1741 was that Elizaveta agreed with the Swedes that if their invasion helped bring her to power¹, she would cede provinces back to Sweden that had been lost to Peter the Great in the Great Northern War. WELL, she came to power and then did not keep her word, oops.)

1. For additional context, remember that La Chétardie, the French ambassador to Russia whom we've previously met in Berlin, was head of the coup that overthrew Ivan VI and Anna Leopoldovna in favor of Elizaveta. This is part of why Elizaveta initially inclined toward pro-French policies, which made her more inclined to take Prussia's side over Austria's (in contrast to the usual pro-Habsburg policy of Russia) at first. Then she was worn down by a combination of anti-Prussian foreign minister Bestushev, Fritz being an asshole, and a conspiracy against Bestushev among La Chétardie, Fritz, and Johanna of Zerbst (Catherine the Great's mother). La Chétardie got promptly kicked out of Russia, and the Prussian ambassador and Johanna were more politely sent away. And then Russia became gradually more anti-Prussian as the years passed, culminating in the Seven Years' War.

I'm somewhat sceptical if we're talking of actual Burgundy (including the France-Comte region), but given that the parts of Burgundy the medieval realm which now are Belgium were under Austrian control as the Spanish/Austrian Netherlands, I could see her declaring this old Habsburg heritage she has no intention of giving up, or something like that.

I had the same thought, but according to Anderson, this is in the context of invading France and conquering existing French territory to compensate for territory that's been seized from her, so it would kind of have to be Burgundy/Franche-Comté. What she actually said, I have no idea (and like you, I don't trust Anderson). I'm remaining agnostic on this point until further evidence emerges one way or the other.

Of course, I could be wrong, but I don't remember a claim to actual Burgundy from Stollberg-Rillinger.

I searched my Kindle copy for Burgundy in Stollberg-Rilinger before writing this post, and found nothing.

the Dutch would have wanted a Prince who isn't also King of Prussia, it would have had to be Heinrich, wouldn't it?

That was exactly my reasoning!

But I really don't think it came up during the relevant time. If Heinrich found out, then probably when he made his much delayed first foreign trip, and since Lehndorff doesn't report anything of the sort, it probably didn't happen. (Then again, Lehndorff was recently widowed and still reeling from his first wife's painful death, so he might have missed out on that bit of information.)

Yeah, makes sense.

Edited Date: 2022-06-26 02:17 am (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

the medieval realm which now are Belgium were under Austrian control as the Spanish/Austrian Netherlands, I could see her declaring this old Habsburg heritage she has no intention of giving up

I was just reminded that like her father (or uncle Joseph, I forget) and later her son, according to Anderson MT actually wanted to trade the Austrian Netherlands in this war for something more useful, like Bavaria!

This I actually believe, because there's a reason the 18th century Habsburgs kept wanting to get rid of it: it was a huge liability. It was far away from their core lands and therefore difficult to defend, it had two powerful neighbors that kept fighting in the area, and the treaties that ended the War of the Spanish Succession had bound Austrian possession up with so many restrictions that the Emperor was more of a trustee than an actual ruler. Consider:

- The river Scheldt was blocked off to keep Antwerp from competing commercially with the Dutch.
- Import duties were favorable to the Dutch and British.
- Charles VI tried *really* *really* hard to found the Ostend Company to take advantage of his ports for overseas trading purposes, but the Dutch and British kept pointing out that that actually violated the Treaty of Rastatt (part of what we lump under the Peace of Utrecht), and he finally agreed to shut it down in return for recognition of the Pragmatic Sanction.
- The Austrian Netherlands had to pay for the maintenance of the Dutch Barrier fortresses against the French, which ended up being something like a third or even a half of the income of the Austrian Netherlands.

ETA: My 1720s foreign policy write-up here contains a more readable account of the controversy over the Austrian Netherlands and why the Habsburgs were more prone to consider it a liability.

Edited Date: 2022-06-25 10:14 pm (UTC)

From:

cahn

(either AW or Heinrich, but given AW was next in line for the Prussian throne, Fritz had no intention of siring an alternate heir, and the Dutch would have wanted a Prince who isn't also King of Prussia, it would have had to be Heinrich, wouldn't it? As usual, I doubt anyone thought of Ferdinand)

I just love how everyone in salon knew it HAD to have been Heinrich :D (I actually thought the same when I noticed that a specific brother wasn't specified.) Ferdinand who?

From:

selenak

Quite. Also, Fritz' reaction of "no way would it please me to have ~~Heinrich~~ one of my brothers ruling a realm of their own!" will also prove to be pretty specific. I mean, no one considered Ferdinand as a satrap of anything. AW in his younger years had the popularity and the energy, but it's noticable how all the envoys go "not as as smart as his brother, will follow Heinrich's lead for sure when becoming king" in their reports when mentioning AW.

From:

cahn

I mean, no one considered Ferdinand as a satrap of anything.

Hee. I'd say "poor Ferdinand" except that I imagine Ferdinand might have been just as happy with this state of affairs...

From:

felis

Heinrich apparently went to Dresden with Fritz in January 1742 and met Brühl. Salon's Frederician chronology confirms that 1742 is the year Heinrich became Fritz's AD, so while I can't confirm his presence in Dresden, the timing checks out.

Checks out. They left for Dresden on the 18th (together with a lot of other people from Wartensleben over Eichel to Kobelsdorff), arrived the 19th, attended the opera and a ball which Fritz opened with the Saxon Queen, and left the next day. No mention of Brühl, but I'd say he was at the ball, at least. Also, a good week later, AW gets a short letter from Fritz, basically saying "I told Heinrich to tell you everything that's going on here". (I suspect AW was very pleased that Heinrich got to be where the action was and he didn't. Well, not that kind of action, what with his recent marriage. /s)

From:

selenak

Your ability to track down contemporary newspapers remains awesome. Say, the Saxon Queen Fritz is opening the ball with must be MT's cousin Josepha, right? The same one who defiantly remains in Dresden during the 7 Years War?

Speaking of AW's recent marriage and balls, since Catherine recalls dancing with Heinrich on all the marriage-celebrating balls that time, so he must have gone straight from there to becoming Fritz' AD and getting to be where the action was. This being before all the drama, and his first chance to prove himself, I suspect it was as happy a time for him as he ever had while in Fritz' shadow.

Also, not for the first time I find it frustrating that all the Heinrich-AW correspondance is lost to us (i.e. or has been deliberately lost, as I suspect Hohenzollern censorship, as with Heinrich's reputed memoirs).

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Your ability to track down contemporary newspapers remains awesome.

Seconding this! Always

felis with the newspaper findings. *applause*

Say, the Saxon Queen Fritz is opening the ball with must be MT's cousin Josepha, right?

Must be!

This being before all the drama, and his first chance to prove himself, I suspect it was as happy a time for him as he ever had while in Fritz' shadow.

Yeah, it sounds like it probably was. And we know how being out of Fritz's shadow worked out for him. Poor Heinrich.

From:

cahn

Seconding this!

Thirding this! :D

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Also, not for the first time I find it frustrating that all the Heinrich-AW correspondance is lost to us (i.e. or has been deliberately lost, as I suspect Hohenzollern censorship, as with Heinrich's reputed memoirs).

Same, and this reminds me that earlier this month I ran into a 19th century summary of Heinrich's and AW's respective accounts of the campaigns of 1756, and the author commented that that it was not improbable that more Heinrich memoirs from later in the war would turn up at some point. I was like, "WELL. 1757 is when Heinrich started to have inflammatory opinions, so I wouldn't count on it."

19th century author, btw, is predictably a Fritz fanboy and accordingly a Winterfeldt fanboy, which means he's not happy with AW's and Heinrich's criticism of the latter, and that's in 1756! He actually compares AW and Heinrich to Wilhelmine in being memoir writers biased by their emotions, and contrasts them to Fritz's UTTER OBJECTIVITY. He practically accuses Heinrich of being a hysterical female.

Also, as far as I can tell from skimming, the main reason to believe Winterfeldt was the greatest of all Fritz's contemporaries was that Fritz liked him and relied on him so much, and there can be no more important opinion than that of Fritz, the utterly objective military genius.

If this is how the 19th century reacted to criticism of Winterfeldt, I can only imagine how quickly the 1757-following materials were disappeared.

Edited Date: 2022-06-26 11:12 pm (UTC)

From:

cahn

:( I want that correspondence and memoirs!! Poor Heinrich, I suppose it's just as well he didn't know they would get lost, and the most likely reason.

From:

selenak

I strongly suspect we might not have had the Heinrich to Ferdinand letters, either, if not for the general lack of attention paid to Ferdinand (who saved all of Heinrich's letters to him and thus provided us with all the juicy quotes from the 7 Years War). I might misrenember, but I seem to recall before the 20th century, no one bothered with Ferdinand's papers at all, and before Ziebura, the biographies didn't quote (extensively) from said letters. So the "Ferdinand Who?" reaction saved at least some of Heinrich's strong opinions for posterity.

Re: Austrian Succession tidbits

From:

cahn - Date: 2022-07-01 06:25 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

selenak

No kidding. I mean, ob course Heinrich wasn't any more objective than Fritz was, and if we did have his memoirs and letters to AW, I wouldn't trust him to deliver an unbiased estimation, either, but it would be invaluable to have his take on this to compare to the other sources.

BTW, how's that for a contemporary review: Goethe, recovering teenage Fritz fan turned more complicated emotions having man, thought Fritz' Histoire de mon temps did show his writerly skills... in manipulating all the sympathy away from MT not by accusing her of crimes, but by making her sound boring. Thus, any attempt to sympathize with his arch nemesis was prevented far more efficiently than if he had openly abused her in said book.

(Goethe definitely didn't think Fritz was objective in any of his writings, but then Goethe had been a target of De La Literature Allemande, so he wouldn't make that mistake anyway.)

I remember reading early 19th century writer Varnhagen declare that Zieten's criticism of Winterfeldt proved Zieten couldn't have been such a stand-up great guy as usually presented, because why else would he differ in his judgment on Winterfeldt so much from Fritz? It must have been jealousy!

Fontane, otoh, thought Winterfeldt did get exaggarated hostility in the 7 Years War but also that he got it for genuine faults - those of Fritz, whom no one could attack openly, so unconditional Fritz fan Winterfeldt made a good lightning rod.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I remember reading early 19th century writer Varnhagen declare that Zieten's criticism of Winterfeldt proved Zieten couldn't have been such a stand-up great guy as usually presented, because why else would he differ in his judgment on Winterfeldt so much from Fritz? It must have been jealousy!

Oh, lol, Varnhagen! Thank you for reminding me Varnhagen is on my list of authors to check out once my font is up to reading more than a few pages at a time (hence why I broke down and started skimming the article on Heinrich's and AW's Winterfeldt opinions), since he gets cited so much by later authors.

Fontane, otoh, thought Winterfeldt did get exaggarated hostility in the 7 Years War but also that he got it for genuine faults - those of Fritz, whom no one could attack openly, so unconditional Fritz fan Winterfeldt made a good lightning rod.

See, this I'll believe! Remember how Görtz got executed the moment Charles XII died, because no one else in Sweden wanted to keep fighting that war that Charles XII was dragging on for 20 years and sucking his country dry to fund, and Görtz was a foreigner and more importantly, not a royal, so he became the lightning rod for Charles' unpopular war and war-funding policies.

I can imagine if Fritz had died in 1761, Prussia had had to surrender a bunch of territory, and Winterfeldt was still alive and had been his right hand for all those years...if not execution, then some kind of backlash.

From:

cahn

:D

and if we did have his memoirs and letters to AW, I wouldn't trust him to deliver an unbiased estimation, either, but it would be invaluable to have his take on this to compare to the other sources.

Lol, no! I mean, the Ferdinand letters definitely aren't what one could call unbiased... I imagine they would be factually correct (at least to the extent his memory allowed, of course, which might be significant, and of course people's memories can be affected by their bias) but wildly biased in interpretation.

(Not saying Heinrich was like this, but I realized (and then had to add the conditionals above) I was thinking of my sister, who until recently had a reputation in our family for having an extremely good memory for factual things that happened -- if you were unsure, you consulted her, and her version was always what had always (factually) happened. Now, on the other hand, her interpretation of what had happened would often not agree with other people's!)

Goethe, recovering teenage Fritz fan turned more complicated emotions having man, thought Fritz' Histoire de mon temps did show his writerly skills... in manipulating all the sympathy away from MT not by accusing her of crimes, but by making her sound boring. Thus, any attempt to sympathize with his arch nemesis was prevented far more efficiently than if he had openly abused her in said book.

Heeee. That's great. ~~so what does he has to say about Fritz writing about Voltaire~~ (I know, that's different because he's the ex!)

Fontane, otoh, thought Winterfeldt did get exaggarated hostility in the 7 Years War but also that he got it for genuine faults - those of Fritz, whom no one could attack openly, so unconditional Fritz fan Winterfeldt made a good lightning rod.

That makes sense!

(btw, for almost all of July I'll be either traveling or getting ready for a another trip *sigh*; occasionally I may actually be able to comment in salon more, but mostly will probably mean that I'm not able to write very much.)

Edited Date: 2022-07-01 06:18 pm (UTC)

From:

felis

Well, to be fair, I only really had to track them down once, at least for the 1740s (minus 41 and 40, which still annoys me). ;)

Also, I belatedly realized why "Saxon Queen" felt wrong to write - because it is, Queen of Poland, not Saxony of course - although I don't know what the correct title would be here. Electress? It's not like she herself does any electing.
But yes, should be Maria Josepha. (Do we know anything about her relationship with MT?)

I suspect it was as happy a time for him as he ever had while in Fritz' shadow

Yeah. And as I mentioned recently, Fritz himself seems to have had quite a lot of praise for him during that time as well. Which reminds me of your guess that the trip to Aachen, which was also in 1742, might have been a "well done" reward.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

That reminds me, I ran into this Fritz quote in Anderson:

'So long as I breathe', he told Belleisle on 8 January, 'I will never allow a métairie [that is, a small farm] of Bohemia to be detached in favour of the King of Saxony [sic; the Elector Augustus was also king of Poland].'

I don't have a citation for it, it might be in the political correspondence, but apparently "King/Queen of Saxony" was a thing! This doesn't surprise me, as "King in Prussia" and "King of Prussia" were used interchangeably by contemporaries even in FW's time.

I was actually really pleased to see Fritz saying "King of Saxony" in Anderson, since that's the most natural phrasing for me too, and I had used it in fiction, and then realized it was technically incorrect, but since it was the most informative phrasing and anything else would require more explanation than the subject warranted for this fic...so yay for getting to just use it and be historically accurate at the same time. :D

ETA: Also, I do believe the official title for the elector's consort is "Electress"/"Électrice"/"Kurfürstin". It's what I see in my reading, what Wikipedia says, and what's in Trier.

Edited Date: 2022-06-27 08:13 pm (UTC)

From:

selenak

As Mildred said elsewhere, "Electress" or "Kurfürstin", but since she was also Queen of Poland, she definitely would have been referred to as Queen, this being the higher rank. To refer to her as "the Electress", while technically correct, would have come across as doing something like the Prussians calling MT "Queen of Hungary" all the time instead of "Empress-Queen" or "The Empress". I mean, no one called Queen Caroline "The Electress of Hannover" when talking about G2's wife, did they? Though she was also that.

(Sidenote: In the few years FW's grandmother Sophie was officially Queen Anne's successor, she was still referred to as Kurfürstin/Electress, but I remember some relations teasingly referring to her as "our Princess of Wales" (a title cousin Anne never granted her, but since it usually went with the official successor territory, it wasn't out of this world.)

should be Maria Josepha. (Do we know anything about her relationship with MT?

I don't think they had one (a personal one, that is), as such, since as far as I recall the age gap was so large (Maria Josepha: born 1699, MT born 1717) that they didn't crow up anywhere near each other and Josepha was already married abroad by the time MT was out of the nursery. Presumably they had an official exchange of birthday greeting letters and the like, but unlike Maria Josepha's daughter-in-law Antonia, who did become MT's close correspondent (and later that of Fritz), they weren't pen pals, either.

And as I mentioned recently, Fritz himself seems to have had quite a lot of praise for him during that time as well. Which reminds me of your guess that the trip to Aachen, which was also in 1742, might have been a "well done" reward.

For all that I make fun of Ulrike's "you're such a wonderful father to us, brother!" letters to Fritz, I think he really did try as good as he could for the youngest siblings in the beginning, not just via educational programs but also by giving rewards. It's just that his fatherly role model and the similarities between himself and Heinrich all but guaranteed the developing mess...

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Also, can I just say that I was deeply amused by the notice that the publisher felt the need to add to the copyright page of this book about the War of the Austrian Succession?

Knowledge and best practice in this field are constantly changing. As new research and experience broaden our understanding, changes in research methods, professional practices, or medical treatment may become necessary. Practitioners and researchers must always rely on their own experience and knowledge in evaluating and using any information, methods, compounds, or experiments described herein. In using such information or methods they should be mindful of their own safety and the safety of others, including parties for whom they have a professional responsibility.

Yes, indeed, whether it's warfare or medical treatment, you probably don't want to rely on the information, methods, compounds, or experiments described herein if you are at all mindful of your own safety or the safety of others...

Edited Date: 2022-06-26 09:33 pm (UTC)

From:

cahn

invading Silesia was a lot more dangerous between October 20 (Charles VI's death) and October 28 (Anna's) than it was after.

Oh, that's very interesting! (Though I also appreciate knowing that Fritz shouldn't be trusted as to his reasoning.)

Maria Theresa, who was in Linz when she heard of the victory, made a triumphal entry into her capital: at the Hofburg she was greeted by her son, the two-year-old Archduke Joseph, who waved a little flag from a window.

Okay, that is super cute :D

The duc de Richelieu, who was to command it, was equipped with 3,000 copies of a manifesto drawn up by Voltaire himself, to be distributed when the invasion force got ashore.

:D That guy got around!

So far, Fritz has turned down opportunities for Heinrich to become:
- Stadtholder of the Netherlands
- King of Poland
- satrap of Catherine the Great

And Heinrich turned down an opportunity to become King of America.

My response to this: Heinrich is CLEARLY the MOST AWESOME and everyone knew it! :D :D

From:

selenak

Obviously.:) Though to be fair, in the 1740s he was still unproven (other than by having a good start of a military career in Silesia 2), and I suspect the only reason he was considered was because the Dutch might have thought a brother would on the one hand secure them a friendly Prussia but otoh would prevent a total takeover as it would be in his own interests not to have Big Bro run the show.

:D That guy got around!

Richelieu or Voltaire?

From:

cahn

but otoh would prevent a total takeover as it would be in his own interests not to have Big Bro run the show.

lolololol! okay now I want someone to write the diplomatic maneuverings of Fritz and Stadtholder Heinrich :D

Richelieu or Voltaire?

Hee, I was thinking Voltaire! (And meaning "got around" in the literary/figurative sense.) But I guess it could also apply to Richelieu!

From:

mildred_of_midgard

okay now I want someone to write the diplomatic maneuverings of Fritz and Stadtholder Heinrich :D

And for dysfunctional siblings this premise is great, but I'm thinking: Heinrich and the Patriots. Heinrich and the French Revolution. Heinrich and Napoleon. That's where it gets really juicy!

But if I can make myself learn French, I can read a lot more of the Fritz political correspondence (complete with my newfound German), and then discover many interesting things to report back.

Richelieu or Voltaire?

Lol, I was wondering the same thing! Richelieu got around in many senses of the word. :P

I'm sure there's much interesting Richelieu and Voltaire material waiting for us in French too...With my German slacking lately, maybe I should switch my focus and just try to maintain German until I get inspired again. Hmmm.