18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 35

[cahn]

In the previous post Charles II found AITA:

Look, I, m, believe in live and let live. (And in not going on my travels again. Had enough of that to last a life time.) Why can't everyone else around me be more chill? Instead, my wife refuses to employ my girlfriend, my girlfriend won't budge and accept another office, my brother is set on a course to piss off everyone (he WILL go on his travels again), and my oldest kid shows signs of wanting my job which is just not on, sorry to say. And don't get me started about Mom (thank God she's living abroad). What am I doing wrong? AITA?

Comments

Re: Louis XIV gossip

[mildred_of_midgard]

Had not known Philippe the Regent had acted thus towards his Dad's boyfriend, but, despite neither Monsieur nor the Chevalier being nice people: awww.

Thirding "awww"!

had known that the event that ultimately triggered the Chevalier's brief banishment (a two years exile in Rome where he had a fling with Louis' first love Marie Mancini) was Philippe demanding benefices for his boyfriend,

See, I'm glad you read this, because Schultz, like Wikipedia, says it was Minette working together with her brother Charles II to get the Chevalier banished, but Spangler says, "Some historians hold to older ideas that it was solely through the efforts of Madame that the Chevalier was exiled."

- on a more positive note, Philippe and the Chevalier travelled to Bretagne when there was a famine there and personally oversaw relief efforts!

Yes, good for them! But I enjoy the quote from Spangler's source: "This solidly bought the heart of the people for this prince."

It's hard to say without more context, but "bought" feels a bit barbed to me?

“So I must begin with my brother?”

=> gay bakers still have no luck, imo, but it seems that Philippe's orientation did provide cover for anyone gay at court because Louis thought it would be unfair otherwise

Ha! Look at Horowski knowing things. I agree about the baker, though (sadly).

What this episode most reminds me of is Ferdinando II of Tuscany (grandfather of Gian Gastone). Reminder for cahn:

On a cold winter's evening he was warming himself by a fire in his apartment, when his mother, the Archduchess Maria-Maddalena, paid him an impromptu visit. She told him with dismay that she had suddenly discovered the existence of a particular carnal abuse in Florence ; among people, more over, of distinct parts, power and social standing. In spite of whatsoever virtues they might possess, she was determined to have them all severely punished, and submitted a long list of offenders to his scrutiny.

When the Grand Duke had read it, he remarked that this information did not suffice. There were others of similar tendencies he could append to her list. And taking a quill, he added his name in capitals.

The Archduchess said he had done this merely to save the guilty, but that she would have them chastised all the same. The Grand Duke inquired to what punishment she chose to condemn them, and she replied with some vehemence: 'They must be burned.' So the Grand Duke, flinging the list into the fire, said: 'There they are, Madame, punished just as you have condemned them.'

Schultz also says that Louis was reluctant to punish courtiers who practiced the "ultramontane" (lol) sin, unless, like the Chevalier, they were also a political nuisance. (He also agrees with Spangler that the reason the Chevalier was brought back and tolerated by Louis was that he was a useful spy and check on Monsieur.)

By the way, the book Sodomites, Pederasts and Tribades in Eighteenth Century France that I've been dipping into says that executions and persecution of sodomy in France declined in the latter part of the pre-revolutionary 18th century, and that part of the reason may relate to a view expressed by contemporaries that big scary public executions acted as a deterrent for some people, but gave other people ideas. Which you may remember was Fritz's rationale for not executing Prussians for sodomy.

Re: Louis XIV gossip

[selenak]

Thirding "awww"!

Unfortunately stories where same-sex partners are disregarded or treated badly by the biological family of their beloved are still so common that a story set several centuries earlier in a country what was far from progressive in general where the family member in question behaved very differently, with respect and kindness, is definitely worthy an aww and then some.

(Incidentally, the Chevalier turning down the continued pension and just wanting to keep his living quarters is the first time I‘ve read of him NOT taking offered money. I wonder whether he had a feeling he would not survive Monsieur for long, and/or whether it was plain old depression and grief. After all, spouses who have spent decades together dying shortly after another isn‘t exactly unheard of.)

If I recall the editor of the Minette/Charles correspondence correctly, it was mentioned there, too that was finally pushed Louis into action were Monsieur demanding the benefices in combination with the Chevalier reacting badly (and publically so) when not getting them, but also that Charles did try to help his sister re: the Chevalier before, though diplomatically rather than by direct demands - for example, he offered the Chevalier an honored place at his own court if only he‘d leave the Orleans household. (Can‘t blame the Chevalier for not going for that. After all, how was he to know Charles would keep his word beyond maybe a few months? Then he‘d be stranded at a place where he didn‘t speak the language of and where he had no influence and would have to start again, and Monsieur would feel he‘d been sold out and would not take him back.)

Re: Louis XIV gossip

[cahn]

I mean, even for different-sex partners, if they weren't married except for all of Emilie's lovers, because she was just that cool I got the impression they often got sloughed off back then? Though I guess in that case they were usually women. Oh! I guess Elizaveta's lover turned out OK :)

Also, even if the Chevalier wasn't a super nice guy, I also feel a little "aww" about him not surviving Monsieur for long.

Re: Louis XIV gossip

[cahn]

I remembered that story about Ferdinando II of Tuscany once you reminded me! :D It's a great story.