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cahnIn the previous post Charles II found AITA:
Look, I, m, believe in live and let live. (And in not going on my travels again. Had enough of that to last a life time.) Why can't everyone else around me be more chill? Instead, my wife refuses to employ my girlfriend, my girlfriend won't budge and accept another office, my brother is set on a course to piss off everyone (he WILL go on his travels again), and my oldest kid shows signs of wanting my job which is just not on, sorry to say. And don't get me started about Mom (thank God she's living abroad). What am I doing wrong? AITA?
Look, I, m, believe in live and let live. (And in not going on my travels again. Had enough of that to last a life time.) Why can't everyone else around me be more chill? Instead, my wife refuses to employ my girlfriend, my girlfriend won't budge and accept another office, my brother is set on a course to piss off everyone (he WILL go on his travels again), and my oldest kid shows signs of wanting my job which is just not on, sorry to say. And don't get me started about Mom (thank God she's living abroad). What am I doing wrong? AITA?
Re: Louis XIV gossip
Date: 2022-03-20 09:05 am (UTC)And this is the medical care of the Sun King!
Yikes. Not entirely surprised, though, since I was familiar with the story of his long and painful dying largely due to medical incompentence. (Though his age and state didn't help.)
Remember when McKay told us that Liselotte was the only one who ever "accused" Eugene of Savoy of being gay, and only after she was mad at him for defeating France? Schultz cites the Brandenburg envoy, Ezechiel Spanheim, writing back home about Eugene before Eugene even left France
Ha. Yet again we see the result of biographers copying each other instead of doing primary sources research with the "the only one who ever said this was Liselotte!" statement. Reminds me of "only Voltaire ever accused Fritz of gayness!" from writers as late as Charlotte Panglatz, all the "she cried but she took" quotes, de Ligne's Eugene RPF getting quoted in Eugene's English wiki entry as a genuine memoirs quote, etc., etc. Oh, and "FW would never!" re: burying Gundling in a wine barrel also being an argument in some current day publications when the publication of Disney!Envoy Stratemann's letters in the late 19th century, including a report on Gundling's funeral, had already proven this wrong, and then in the 20th century there was the added testimony of the pastors once their letters were discovered. And you can understand the mechanism: if you, the writer, find several biographies stating something - in this case "only Liselotte...", you take it as fact and don't wonder whether they've copied from each other.
At any rate, congrats on Schultz and you re: finding Ezechiel Spanheim, proving again that envoy reports are where it's at! Following your wiki link, I see Spanheim was a study buddy of Liselotte's father.
Maybe she was his source!
Could be, or the reverse, since he would have been able to go to all-male outings she did not. I note he was present at James II' coronation in London and later had a longer stint there when F1 was King of Prussia, i.e. in the William & Mary era, as well, which reminds me that Liselotte includes some gossip about William in her letters, too. However, even if she was his primary or only source on young Eugene, she hardly has a motive for making up stuff about the sexual inclinations of a young minor product of the French nobility whom Louis refuses to give a job to and who isn't her husband's fave, either. This is long before Eugene defeats anyone on the battlefield, and if Spanheim mentions it in his report from Versailles, he's not writing with the benefit of hindsight. Speaking of Louis not giving Eugene a job, your question about the "cabanes du temple" made me google myself, and I came up with a very article about the Chevalier du Lorraine, which includes among other things this quote from memoirist Primi Visconti:
Primi Visconti relates a good example, if genuine, of how gender and sexuality could have figured in the decisions made regarding court placement and offices. Châtillon’s elder brother was a member of the royal bodyguard, and used his proximity to plead before the king how unfair he thought it was that his career (as the elder son) had not been advanced in the service of the king, while that of his younger brother had in the service of Monsieur. The king replied, “One makes his fortune in my brother’s service by certain means which would make one lose favour if employed in mine”.
=> Maybe Louis' job refusal wasn't just because of lingering bad feeling re: Eugene's mother.
Lots of trouble with fountains. Lots and lots of trouble with fountains. (...)
Fritz: I feel your pain.
Hannover cousins, thinking of the spectacular fountains at Herrenhausen: We don't.
Wilhelmine, thinking about the functioning fountain at the Eremitage: *stays tactfully silent*
Re: Louis XIV gossip
Date: 2022-03-20 03:16 pm (UTC)Nice, thanks. I'll add it to my ever-growing list. Though it may make you laugh to know that in the Louis bio I'm reading, I've been impatiently reading the personal life parts and/or skipping ahead to the military/geopolitical chapters. I really just want to know more about the Nine Years' War! :P (There's a whole book on the sack of Heidelberg that I've read the sample for and that I'm eyeing.)
Reminds me of "only Voltaire ever accused Fritz of gayness!" from writers as late as Charlotte Panglatz,
Yep, me too! I first encountered this in MacDonogh, who is a faithful student of the Pangels school.
ETA: I might add that MacDonogh's bio was published in 1999, thus some 20 years *later* than Pangels.
Yet again we see the result of biographers copying each other instead of doing primary sources research
I mean, ALL Schultz ever does is copy other biographers, but in this case, at least he's in the position to copy biographers writing in 2005, unlike 197-something McKay.
proving again that envoy reports are where it's at!
Indeed! Envoy reports are a gold mine.
Maybe she was his source!
Could be, or the reverse, since he would have been able to go to all-male outings she did not
Ah, yes, you're right. Just because I encountered her as a source first doesn't mean she has primacy in any other sense!
The king replied, “One makes his fortune in my brother’s service by certain means which would make one lose favour if employed in mine”.
=> Maybe Louis' job refusal wasn't just because of lingering bad feeling re: Eugene's mother
OOH. Very interesting! See, this is why
Hannover cousins, thinking of the spectacular fountains at Herrenhausen: We don't.
Wilhelmine, thinking about the functioning fountain at the Eremitage: *stays tactfully silent*
Hee, yep, I was thinking of them! It all depends on where you build your palace vis-a-vis a major source of water. Too high or too far away and the technology doesn't exist until the 19th century. Close enough, and it does.
Re: Louis XIV gossip
Date: 2022-03-20 05:55 pm (UTC)ETA: I might add that MacDonogh's bio was published in 1999, thus some 20 years *later* than Pangels.
He really has no excuse. Incidentally, does he quote Zimmermann and the broken penis theory? Because Zimmermann - in his mind - defending Fritz against the "accusation" of gayness by declaring it was all a cunning strategy involving pretending to be gay that even fooled Zimmermann himself for a while to disguise the horrible STD and penis operation trauma would not make sense if there weren't a bunch of contemporaries convinced that Fritz is less than straight that he needed "defending" from.
OOH. Very interesting!
I thought so.:) I only browsed through the Chevalier de Lorraine article, but it's very interesting in general, and I'll read it more slowly for a second time now and will probably find more to report. I ssee the author footnotes all his quotes very well. Even the footnotes look like they contain new-to-me info, like the fact that the Chevalier, when he was briefly in exile because he had pissed off Louis too much (and when Philippe made Minette's life hell on the general princple of blaming her for this state of affairs and thought she could make Louis call the Chevalier back), the Chevalier actually had a great time in Rome, which included an affair with.... drumroll.... Marie Mancini, aka Louis' first love (and as the sister of Eugene's mother Olympe the aunt of Eugene; source for this: Marie Mancini, who also said he was feted in Roman society). I mean, I was already amused when Versailles in its first season depicted the royal disgrace interlude as the Chevalier suffering in the Bastille, and I knew he hadn't actually been living badly (not with all the money Philippe was always giving him!), but I hadn't expected the fling with Louis' ex!
Re: Louis XIV gossip
Date: 2022-03-20 07:12 pm (UTC)Good to know! I definitely read (and indeed owned) some Antonia Fraser books back in the day, but none of my long-ago reading has left my present-day self with any confidence about which authors were reliable.
I only browsed through the Chevalier de Lorraine article, but it's very interesting in general, and I'll read it more slowly for a second time now and will probably find more to report.
Oh, excellent! I saw it in the Google hits but didn't click on it. I'm glad you did!
I hadn't expected the fling with Louis' ex!
The great thing about salon is the way we build on each other's findings, and gossip always leads to MOAR GOSSIP. (Hi,
Incidentally, does he quote Zimmermann and the broken penis theory?
Let me check.
Hmm, not that I can see from my quick searches for "Zimmermann," "penis", "operation", and "venereal". He cites Zimmermann on other things, but is mum on any gayness discussion.
The closest he comes that I can see is: "Some people insist that he caught a venereal infection, that it went untreated and with time rendered him impotent," which is one of the rumors that Zimmermann is at pains to refute.
Re: Louis XIV gossip
Date: 2022-03-23 08:09 am (UTC)Inevitably, therefore, the story also reflects something of the condition of women of a certain sort in seventeeth century France. What were their choices and how far were they, mistresses and wives, mothers and daughters, in control of their own destinies? A portrait will, I trust, emerge of Louis XIV himself, the Sun King and like the sun the centre of his univierse. But as the title and subtitle indicate, this is not a full study of the reign, so fruitfully dealt with elsewhere, in studies both ancient and modern, to all of which I acknwoledge my deeep gratitude. It was Voltaire, in the first brilliant study of 'le grand siècle, published twenty-odd years after the King's death, who wrote: "It must not be expected to meet here with a minute detail of the wars carried on in this age. Everything that happens is not worthy of the record.' This is a sentiment which one can only humbly echo.
Consider me entirely unsurprised battles weren't Voltaire's priority in "The Age of Louis XIV", which I really must read one of these days.
and here's a quote from a Louis-attached lady - not Liselotte - on Eugene from late in the book:
(Marlborough) had the assistance of Prince Eugene, who, as the son of Olympe Mancini, was regarded at Versailles as some kind of spiritual traitor even if, as a Savoyard, he was not technically one: 'I hate Prince Eugene in the most Christian way I can', observed Madame de Maintenon some years later.
Should have offered him a job while he was still in France, then. Anyway, browsing through the book reminded me of something which I think I've brought up before, to wit, Dame Antonia adding a footnote to the brief tale of Sophie Charlotte/Figuelotte being promoted as a possible second Mrs. Louis XIV for a short while by her parents. The footnote points out that she married F1 instead and thus became the grandmother of Fritz, leading one to speculate what warrior descendants would have resulted from a marriage between her and Louis. To which I say, since any such kid would have lacked not just the FW type parenting but the FW introduced military schooling, starting essentially at age 7, and definitely would have lacked the well cared for, well drilled Prussian army and the nicely filled treasury: none?
Re: Louis XIV gossip
Date: 2022-03-26 11:23 pm (UTC)Hahaha. There is a lot of military history out there, it's true, but good military history is harder to come by. I have opinions.
Consider me entirely unsurprised battles weren't Voltaire's priority in "The Age of Louis XIV", which I really must read one of these days.
Same, it's on my list if I make to studying French! And I have to say, reading all these Schultz bios is leading me back to sources in French that I can't read, thus supplying me with more motivation... :)
'I hate Prince Eugene in the most Christian way I can'
LOL, that is so great. Maintenon, if you think that's bad, just wait until his cousin Victor Amadeus defects again! (again again) :D
To which I say, since any such kid would have lacked not just the FW type parenting but the FW introduced military schooling, starting essentially at age 7, and definitely would have lacked the well cared for, well drilled Prussian army and the nicely filled treasury:
Yeah, as you and I have agreed, recreating the army and filling the treasury were not a thing that Fritz, for all his military genius, was going to do on his own.
Re: Louis XIV gossip
Date: 2022-03-21 05:12 am (UTC)Wow! I am always feeling like actual history is more soap opera-ish than made-up history :D Though I suppose with a much larger cast, which would be unwieldy.
Though this is all making me think, they should make a TV series about Algarotti...
Re: Louis XIV gossip
Date: 2022-03-21 08:15 am (UTC)Re: Louis XIV gossip
Date: 2022-03-26 11:18 pm (UTC)For
If you only had *some* money, then you could maybe be comfortable...and if you didn't have any, then sucks to be you.
Schultz tells me that the Chevalier started out in the Bastille, was transferred to an a fortress on an island off the coast of Marseilles, and finally ended up in exile in Rome. But even when he was in the Bastille, it wouldn't have been the damp dungeon with rats that the name "Bastille" conjurs up.
Re: Louis XIV gossip
Date: 2022-03-21 05:09 am (UTC)I was familiar with the story of his long and painful dying largely due to medical incompentence.
Didn't you link me to a recent movie trailer about this? Or am I totally confusing this with some other French monarch? (To be fair to myself, I can usually tell the Sun King apart from other monarchs :P I just can't remember whom the movie was about.)
And you can understand the mechanism: if you, the writer, find several biographies stating something - in this case "only Liselotte...", you take it as fact and don't wonder whether they've copied from each other.
Certainly before salon I would not have wondered!
“One makes his fortune in my brother’s service by certain means which would make one lose favour if employed in mine”.
This is hilarious. :D
Re: Louis XIV gossip
Date: 2022-03-21 08:21 am (UTC)I did, and you do not. The film, helpfully, is called "The Death of Louis XIV." It's ever so slow - covering the last three days of Louis' life in agonizing two hours plus detail - and Louis is played by a legendary French actor who was, in fact, in his last year of life while shooting - and even I had trouble sitting through it at the Munich Film Festival because of the slowness. (Also because I expected the movie to cut away to the scheming courtiers now and then which would have enlivened the scene, but no, after the first few minutes when he's still outside, we stay with Louis in his bedroom and in the antechambre of same. But the trailer captures the point it makes very well, in only a few minutes, and here it is again.
Re: Louis XIV gossip
Date: 2022-03-21 10:36 pm (UTC)Gah! I feel you here. And now I have TWO piles! (And my reading rate is 5x slower in one than the other. :P)
Speaking of which, back to Louis XIV...