cahn | 18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 34

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And including Emperor Joseph II!

from Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 2: Against the World, 1780 - 1790:

Joseph's alleged comment to Mozart about the Entführung, "Too many notes", has been taken as evidence of his ignorance. But he probably said something like, "Too beautiful for our ears, and monstrous many notes." It is always necessary to bear in mind, when appraising the emperor's remarks, his peculiar brand of humor or sarcasm. He was usually getting at someone. And he did not use the royal "we". The ears in question were those of the Viennese audience, whom he was mocking for their limited appreciation of Mozart's elaborate music.

(though not gonna lie, I think it is a LOT of notes)

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From:

selenak

"Enemies are for crushing, not for making friends with" has headline potential, that's for sure. :) I get not being into a trope, with some exceptions - for me, that's "(old) friends to lovers". I.e. I have exceptions, but by and large, no. Except if the friends have become enemies in between! Otoh, "enemies to lovers" can be wrong so badly. My ideal execution of this trope provides me with a good reason for the hostility (it's not just a stupid misunderstanding), shows me the hostility instead of just telling me about it, but also shows me there's some mutual respect in the enmity. If not for the person as a whole, then for some of their qualities. And then a well done execution of the trope shows me how the two enemies become close without ignoring the reasons why they were enemies in the first place. (Unless the writer is just going for hate sex. That can also be fun, but I wouldn't call it "friends to lovers".)

Most of all, though, as with any pairing and any trope, I need to find the people involved both interesting, and their relationship (whether as enemies or lovers) interesting, and I have to have some sympathies for both if I'm supposed to root for them to become lovers as opposed to rooting for the character I like to get the hell out of there (and get back to crushing his enemy). BTW, the later variation can also be fun to write. I did that once, since canon absically provided me with one of the few truly irredeemable revolting villains hitting on my shady antihero, that is, behaving very flirtatious towards him. So I wrote a story in which the villain - who has social power over the antihero - takes it one step further, and the shady antihero has to use his wits and cunning to get out of that situation without either getting himself killed or giving the irredeemable villain what he wants. (And then he got back to canonically potting the villain's downfall.)

and then there are characters for which the "enemies to lovers" trope is just wrong. I'm looking at you, Friedrich Schiller, for inflicting it on Jeanne d'Arc, of all the people, by giving her a hot Englishman to fall in love with. (That's not all Schiller did to Joan. He also made her die on the battlefield instead of being burned at the stake.) (Verdi then did an opera version where his librettist wrote out the hot Englishman and instead had Joan fall in love with her King. Either way, she dies in battle to atone for falling in love. Not her trope!) But speaking of Schiller, one reason why I'm into the Schiller/Goethe relationship the way I am is that this is a real life rivals to lovers, err, bffs thing, and comes with lots of juicy quotes to demonstrate that, both from the hostile and the being close stage.

Going back to the late Roman Empire, when I had finished Mike Walkers audio series "Caesar!", of which the Constantine episode is the last but one, I was glued to the spectacular soap opera of it and then I thought, hang on, hang on, wasn't Fausta the daughter of one of Mildred's guys? Wasn't she supposedly involved in his downfall (only German and English wiki disagree with each other whether or not she actually was)? And that guy Maxentius who shows up early in the episode to be defeated by Constantine, wasn't he also an offspring? Okay, I finally have my emotional in now! Why hasn't anyone told me these guys were ona Julio-Claudian level of scheming against each other within the family, and wow, someone gets boiled alive by their husband!

If I had only had more time before Christmas, I would have written you Fausta's very secret diary entries about Dad and his boyfriend/boss man, is what I'm saying.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

*takes notes on your likes and dislikes for future reference* ;)

Most of all, though, as with any pairing and any trope, I need to find the people involved both interesting

I've seen other people say this too. I apparently don't! I apparently have very specific id buttons for dynamics, which can override feeling indifferent toward or despising one or even both characters. I have no interest in and in fact slightly negative feelings toward Maximian as an individual, but he does his part so well in the dynamic with Diocletian that it doesn't matter.

He also made her die on the battlefield instead of being burned at the stake.

In isolation, this arguably counts as a fixit! :P

Either way, she dies in battle to atone for falling in love. Not her trope!

This, though, is just silly. Joan obviously dies in battle because she is AWESOME, and Charles rescued her from the English like he SHOULD HAVE, in recognition of her TOTAL AWESOMENESS, and until her HEROIC death in battle, they went on CRUSHING THEIR ENEMIES together. Not falling in love with them. :PP

*cough*

If I had only had more time before Christmas, I would have written you Fausta's very secret diary entries about Dad and his boyfriend/boss man, is what I'm saying.

And I would have chortled in glee! One day, perhaps.

Also <3 for the thought, even if never gets written.

From:

cahn

Hmm, I'll have to think of tropes I'm definitely not into. I guess pronounced age difference, thus explaining why I'm not really into Fritz/Suhm but also why I think that one guy is so hilarious trying to insist that Fritz felt all fatherly about Fredersdorf... but I guess that's hilarious even without that not being my trope :)

I don't think I feel particularly strongly either way about enemies to lovers. I enjoyed Flight of the Heron and the duty

luzula talks about (...now duty conflicting with love, or even better two loyalties conflicting, is a bulletproof trope for me) and I also enjoy the kind of thing where characters who have personal enmity fall in love, but it's not particularly something I crave.

(That's not all Schiller did to Joan. He also made her die on the battlefield instead of being burned at the stake.)

Heh, like mildred my reaction was, "Actually... that sounds sort of like a fix-it..." but that's without the atoning for falling in love bit, EWWWW.

Why hasn't anyone told me these guys were ona Julio-Claudian level of scheming against each other within the family,

Now, I do like inter-family political scheming a lot! This is why I keep asking for Heinrich/Anhalt!Sophie marriage and the resulting political scheming :)