cahn | 18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 34

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And including Emperor Joseph II!

from Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 2: Against the World, 1780 - 1790:

Joseph's alleged comment to Mozart about the Entführung, "Too many notes", has been taken as evidence of his ignorance. But he probably said something like, "Too beautiful for our ears, and monstrous many notes." It is always necessary to bear in mind, when appraising the emperor's remarks, his peculiar brand of humor or sarcasm. He was usually getting at someone. And he did not use the royal "we". The ears in question were those of the Viennese audience, whom he was mocking for their limited appreciation of Mozart's elaborate music.

(though not gonna lie, I think it is a LOT of notes)

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From:

cahn

He doesn't love anyone and only thinks of himself and doesn't give audiences and doesn't receive anyone other than when walking where his servants under everyone's eyes let all the lowest, most shameful and infamous peopole to him, where everyone passing can see in front of his door every day the most dirty whores and pimps since he's drawn to that kind of low and dirty women whom he pays very well.

Wow. (Also: Don Vienna!Joe!)

("Farewell! You believe you'll find pleasure, but maybe you willl find neither the calm nor the friendship you had with me!")

Heh. I realize that letters to one's ex is never a good look, but this definitely sort of undercuts the nice things he said in the other letter to me. (Also, Luigi :( )

From:

selenak

re: prostitutes, Derek Beales' take on this is "well, it's certainly possible, but as to how many and which ones, we'll never know, because Leopold in full rant mode isn't a reliable source on that one". What we do know is that while with first wife Isabella, Joseph certainly liked sex, and his one attempt to have a mistress from the nobility, i.e. do what monarchs and princes of his era usually did, with Eleonore Liechtenstein, was rebuffed by her because she didn't want a sexual relationship with him. If you are straight, not celibate, not asexual, not married, don't have a noble mistress, and a middle class mistress is out of the question because that would probably ruin the girl's marriage chances for good, then prostitutes are an obvious solution. What gets me is that Leopold's "whom he pays very well" is meant as a negative. I should hope that Joseph wasn't thrifty if he did use prostitutes, the girls were making a living that way!

The other thing is which his biographer doesn't quote but the Five Princesses author did: Leopold also disapproved of Joseph's definitely platonic relationships to the princesses and wrote him not one but two letters, separated by several years, to say essentially: "why do you hang out with these stupid conservative ladies if you are so "progressive"? Also, hanging out with ladies one doesn't woo is stupid, full stop, and just makes people think you're discussing politics with them, which, ew". So given Leopold rants about sex with dirty prostitutes and about the princesses from the other end of the social scale makes one conclude his true problem wasn't what Joseph did or didn't do with either variety of women, but that he was looking for something to complain and feel righteous about.

Re: the audiences, a reminder - when Leopold complains that Joseph does not give audiences - about which youngest brother Max also complained, btw - what is meant here is that Joseph doesn't give the traditional style audiences to the nobility. He cancelled those, but he did famously talk to everyone addressing him at the famous stairs and crosswalks, which were mostly non-nobles. (That, for example, was how Salieri after an unauthorized extended absence showed up, since he was a bit worried - remember, unauthorized absences were what got young Mozart fired by his Prince Bishop - , only to find Joseph being delighted to see him again and sweeping him off for lunch and a a two hours talk about music.) Now you could point out all the drawbacks here: systematic audiences work better since everyone knows when they can talk to the monarch, and the adminstrative staff, whose job it is to impliment the policies, has a far better thance to do so if they witness the matter being brought up at an official audience than if Joseph hears about it on a walk and later says "oh, you should get onto doing x, I was petitioned by baker Y this morning", and maybe he didn't even catch the guy's name right. Not to mention that as youngest brother Max points out in his letter to Leopold, it pisses off the nobility - access to the monarch used to be a sought after privilege, and now they don't have it but street guys do? - and the Emperor needs the nobility to truly get things done. But the thing is, Leopold doesn't make these sensible (from an 18th century pov) arguments in his secret memoranda. Instead, he rants about lowlives and Joseph talking to scum. Again, that just makes me conclude that the heart of the issue weren't so much Joseph's mistakes (which he certainly made) but Leopold's envy and resentment.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Instead, he rants about lowlives and Joseph talking to scum. Again, that just makes me conclude that the heart of the issue weren't so much Joseph's mistakes (which he certainly made) but Leopold's envy and resentment.

Yeah, the classism and misogyny are definitely showing through and seem to loom larger in his mind than reasoned arguments. Come on, Leopold!

From:

cahn

What gets me is that Leopold's "whom he pays very well" is meant as a negative. I should hope that Joseph wasn't thrifty if he did use prostitutes, the girls were making a living that way!

HEE. Oh Leopold. Well, it seems that Leopold at least thought that Joseph paid them well (if he used them), go Joseph :)

Also, hanging out with ladies one doesn't woo is stupid, full stop, and just makes people think you're discussing politics with them, which, ew".

LOL. Unless they're prostitutes. I guess.

what is meant here is that Joseph doesn't give the traditional style audiences to the nobility.

*nods* I actually did remember that, because you mentioned it was one of the things that made Joseph not so effective, and I am sort of the anti-Mildred in that I think it's interesting how people who mean well and have lots of exciting idealistic ideas fail when applying them to the real world, because it's such a geeky thing that I empathize :)