18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 33

[cahn]

And, I mean, it doesn't have to be just 18th century characters, either!

(also, waiting for Yuletide!)

Comments

Re: The Anti-Machiavell

[selenak]

whereas people in the latter category were perfect for sending to other courts, where they can be wily, lie well, and possibly bribe people.

See, Peter, it's almost a compliment that he doesn't want you to be Prussia's envoy in GB. :) Also, it's a miracle and says something about Suhm that Fritz took to him as well as he did and wanted to have him at his side after his ascension to power, given his general opinion of envoys (for which, of course, he had several examples in front of him).

Otoh, what about Eichel: has no wit, heart is debatable, but is certainly some kind of administrative genius.

And that's hardly paraphrased! Fritz, we all know who you are talking about and I don't know how people missed it back then.

Yes, when I heard that passage, I thought, subtle, this is not, and how come no one paid attention in time? I mean, yes, in theory he could have been talking about large realm France and large realm Russia, but come on...

Conclusion: hardly anyone ever read the Anti-Machiavell. They just heard the title and drew assumptions about the content.

Re: The Anti-Machiavell

[mildred_of_midgard]

Also, it's a miracle and says something about Suhm that Fritz took to him as well as he did and wanted to have him at his side after his ascension to power, given his general opinion of envoys

I was thinking of Suhm when I read your summary! It couldn't have hurt that FW wanted to kill Suhm. Both in the sense that Suhm was clearly bad at fake personas :P, and also that his loyalties to Fritz were clear. Also, note that Fritz was planning to keep Suhm away from power, translating Wolff and the like (still what I think would have happened to Katte).

whereas people in the latter category were perfect for sending to other courts, where they can be wily, lie well, and possibly bribe people.

See, Peter, it's almost a compliment that he doesn't want you to be Prussia's envoy in GB. :)

Ha! He did say Peter had no idea of what it was to negotiate, it's true. Take comfort, Peter. (I mean, I don't disagree with Fritz's decision. I just wish he had given me more shipping fodder.)

"A diplomat is a man sent to lie abroad for his country" is a phrase that's been popping into my head lately, especially as I read 1720s diplomacy. Remember Whitworth backdating the treaty so they could get twice as much territorial concessions out of Sweden?

Its reputation is basically a pop culture image of Fritz's response to a pop culture image.

Conclusion: hardly anyone ever read the Anti-Machiavell. They just heard the title and drew assumptions about the content.

Yep, exactly the conclusion I came to as well. Mind you, he *did* say enough things about not abandoning your allies in order to avoid future wars, and not being a hypocrite about religion, and trying negotiations before invading, that I think the outrage, if not the surprise (Victor Amadeus as A+ example of monarching, anyone?) was justified on the part of Europe.

Speaking of, I finally remembered what

Victor Amadeus! Our young author says that he doesn’t mean this in the sense of excusing the guy’s general morals or lack of same, but that he is undeniably the most clever and the most able prince of Europe of their time, and an A-plus example of how to conduct secret negotiations before changing political directions.

reminded me of: ViennaJoe on Fritz! "I'm not saying I'm glad he took Silesia, Mom, I'm just saying that he's the cleverest and most able monarch of our time!"

MT: And yet he needs someone to wash his dirty laundry...

Caroline of Ansbach: Excuse me, not all of us were fortunate enough to have your educational opportunities when we were young.

FS: Thanks for always washing my dirty laundry, Mitz.

how come no one paid attention in time? I mean, yes, in theory he could have been talking about large realm France and large realm Russia, but come on...

MT: Well, the book was only published in September 1740, and you know my dad's ministers were idiots. Then Dad died in October, and I was a bit busy. Next thing you knew, it was December and Fritz was offering to help protect our territory for the low, low price of Silesia...

FS: He seemed so nice! He sent me a salmon!