cahn | 18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 33

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cahn

And, I mean, it doesn't have to be just 18th century characters, either!

(also, waiting for Yuletide!)

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From:

felis

Contrary to its reputation, it’s actually for the most part remarkably consistant with how Fritz saw himself and his government goals later in life.

Yes, this! I mean, I've only read an abridged version so far, but it did contain the section about wars and I thought, well, this isn't half as contradictory to his actions as I thought it would be, it's actually fairly consistent. Its reputation is basically a pop culture image of Fritz's response to a pop culture image. (Possibly promoted by all the envoys etc who totally missed this. :P And it makes a good story with a Machiavellian punchline.)

most competent contemporary monarch at the time of writing?

….drumroll…

Victor Amadeus!

Ha! That's some lovely synergy, because this part wasn't in the abridged version I read and if so, I wouldn't have had any idea who the guy was.

be a first servant to the state. (Yes, that phrase.)

Yeah, that was fascinating to see this early.

Actual cabinet ministers should just be his tools.

But also: "In my opinion, a king can't reward loyalty and officiousness enough" and if he doesn't, "I don't know what's greater, his heartlessness or his stupidity". Weelll...

Oh, and I found it interesting that he actually divided people in two groups here: those who have a good heart but maybe not much genius and wit vs. those who are full of wit and genius, but possibly with a black heart. Now, clever kings have used the former for interior positions, where loyalty and honesty etc are very important, whereas people in the latter category were perfect for sending to other courts, where they can be wily, lie well, and possibly bribe people.

Because sometimes, you see these dark clouds on the horizon, like for example if there is this really really large realm in Europe, and you just know they intend you no good.

And that's hardly paraphrased! Fritz, we all know who you are talking about and I don't know how people missed it back then. Also: Act while you are still in control. "It's better to attack while you can still choose between olive branch and laurel, and not wait until everything is so desperate that a declaration of war will only delay subjugation and destruction for a short while."

His reasoning really didn't change there.

From:

selenak

whereas people in the latter category were perfect for sending to other courts, where they can be wily, lie well, and possibly bribe people.

See, Peter, it's almost a compliment that he doesn't want you to be Prussia's envoy in GB. :) Also, it's a miracle and says something about Suhm that Fritz took to him as well as he did and wanted to have him at his side after his ascension to power, given his general opinion of envoys (for which, of course, he had several examples in front of him).

Otoh, what about Eichel: has no wit, heart is debatable, but is certainly some kind of administrative genius.

And that's hardly paraphrased! Fritz, we all know who you are talking about and I don't know how people missed it back then.

Yes, when I heard that passage, I thought, subtle, this is not, and how come no one paid attention in time? I mean, yes, in theory he could have been talking about large realm France and large realm Russia, but come on...

Conclusion: hardly anyone ever read the Anti-Machiavell. They just heard the title and drew assumptions about the content.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Also, it's a miracle and says something about Suhm that Fritz took to him as well as he did and wanted to have him at his side after his ascension to power, given his general opinion of envoys

I was thinking of Suhm when I read your summary! It couldn't have hurt that FW wanted to kill Suhm. Both in the sense that Suhm was clearly bad at fake personas :P, and also that his loyalties to Fritz were clear. Also, note that Fritz was planning to keep Suhm away from power, translating Wolff and the like (still what I think would have happened to Katte).

whereas people in the latter category were perfect for sending to other courts, where they can be wily, lie well, and possibly bribe people.

See, Peter, it's almost a compliment that he doesn't want you to be Prussia's envoy in GB. :)

Ha! He did say Peter had no idea of what it was to negotiate, it's true. Take comfort, Peter. (I mean, I don't disagree with Fritz's decision. I just wish he had given me more shipping fodder.)

"A diplomat is a man sent to lie abroad for his country" is a phrase that's been popping into my head lately, especially as I read 1720s diplomacy. Remember Whitworth backdating the treaty so they could get twice as much territorial concessions out of Sweden?

Its reputation is basically a pop culture image of Fritz's response to a pop culture image.

Conclusion: hardly anyone ever read the Anti-Machiavell. They just heard the title and drew assumptions about the content.

Yep, exactly the conclusion I came to as well. Mind you, he *did* say enough things about not abandoning your allies in order to avoid future wars, and not being a hypocrite about religion, and trying negotiations before invading, that I think the outrage, if not the surprise (Victor Amadeus as A+ example of monarching, anyone?) was justified on the part of Europe.

Speaking of, I finally remembered what

Victor Amadeus! Our young author says that he doesn’t mean this in the sense of excusing the guy’s general morals or lack of same, but that he is undeniably the most clever and the most able prince of Europe of their time, and an A-plus example of how to conduct secret negotiations before changing political directions.

reminded me of: ViennaJoe on Fritz! "I'm not saying I'm glad he took Silesia, Mom, I'm just saying that he's the cleverest and most able monarch of our time!"

MT: And yet he needs someone to wash his dirty laundry...

Caroline of Ansbach: Excuse me, not all of us were fortunate enough to have your educational opportunities when we were young.

FS: Thanks for always washing my dirty laundry, Mitz.

how come no one paid attention in time? I mean, yes, in theory he could have been talking about large realm France and large realm Russia, but come on...

MT: Well, the book was only published in September 1740, and you know my dad's ministers were idiots. Then Dad died in October, and I was a bit busy. Next thing you knew, it was December and Fritz was offering to help protect our territory for the low, low price of Silesia...

FS: He seemed so nice! He sent me a salmon!