18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 33

[cahn]

And, I mean, it doesn't have to be just 18th century characters, either!

(also, waiting for Yuletide!)

Comments

Re: Cornelia Naumann: Scherben des Glücks ("Shards of Happiness" - a novel about Wilhelmine)

[mildred_of_midgard]

(Or did she in fact have syphilis? If so, I didn't know.)

Meant to say: no, I'm not aware that she did. Which is not to say that she didn't, but like you, I've missed it if so.

Who has STD and who does not?

[selenak]

I've seen it in fiction, but never in any source material. What I think happens is that people put together two different stories about Fritz:

1) Young Fritz got infected with some kind of STD, which is the big explanation for his mistress-less state in later years, and

2) Young Fritz briefly had something going on with Orzelska

combine with

3) The Dresden court was famously loose-lived, and while the August/Orzelska incest story could have just been malicious gossip, she did have several affairs

to conclude that:

4) Orzelska was the one infecting him with an STD/syphilis.

I've even seen a chatty article of pop culture history speculating that the Scouring of Saxony in the 7 Years War is Fritz' long term revenge for the STD and the breaking of his young heart by infectious Orzelska which, just, no. As for Orzelska, if she did have an STD, she must have managed to be super discreet about it, because I don't recall Pöllnitz or another gossipy memoirist/anecdotist of the time mentioning it. And decades later, when the story of young Fritz catching STD as the explanation for Old Fritz' lack of a visible sex life is making the rounds, the version which Boswell hears in 1764 definitely has young Fritz going to whores, not catching it from a lady of the nobility.

Now before I read the Manteuffel biographies, I'd have been inclined to write off the "whores" part to misinformation/bad guesswork, but the thing is, Manteuffel's letters to Brühl do mention not just young Fritz using prostitutes in Ruppin but that he and La Chetardie try to pay one and the same prostitute for information. Now later, Manteuffel comes to the conclusion that the guys from Fritz' social circle are better sources, and once he's in himself, he drops the prostitutes-as-sources idea completely and mades Hadrian comparisons instead o Seckendorff the Nephew, but I can see newly stationed at Ruppin Fritz who is in a frat boy mode and bonding with his officers (see Gröben letters) share brothel visits a few times as a form of male bonding (and also rebellion against the marriage Dad forced on him), even if he's not that keen on het sex. Did he get infected on those occasions? Could be, especially given all the STD jokes he later makes, especially towards younger men like Heinrich (in the Marwitz letters) and even Carel the Page (telling him the acne on his face is STD). It's just that the later gossip's conclusion that this is the cause for his lack of a het sex life is wrong. There's also young Münchow's certainty that Fritz didn't have a crippled penis in his indignant letters which originally came to our attention because of the Katte execution content but which also adress Zimmermann's by then publisized theory, and where he says that in addition to what he himself witnessed as a page in the 30s (where Fritz going upstairs to his wife in the night was surely not to pray with her), there's a third party who could swear that Fritz did have sex post 1734, and the phrasing made us thinking maybe he means a medic who had to treat Fritz or a servant witnessing that.

In conclusion: did young Fritz at some point catch STD? (Though not one to cripple his penis.) Likely. Did he catch it from the Countess Orzelska? Very unlikely.

Re: Who has STD and who does not?

[mildred_of_midgard]

but I can see newly stationed at Ruppin Fritz who is in a frat boy mode and bonding with his officers (see Gröben letters) share brothel visits a few times as a form of male bonding (and also rebellion against the marriage Dad forced on him), even if he's not that keen on het sex.

Yeah, I'm increasingly convinced by the weight of evidence that this probably happened, and that he probably had more sex than I realized when I started salon. Definitely in his younger years, possibly later on too, with candidates like Marwitz and Glasow.

In conclusion: did young Fritz at some point catch STD? (Though not one to cripple his penis.) Likely.

Yeah, you're convincing me. :)

Re: Who has STD and who does not?

[cahn]

Heinrich: I knew it!

this is the kind of high-minded content I absolutely come to salon for