cahn | 18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 33

cahn

And, I mean, it doesn't have to be just 18th century characters, either!

(also, waiting for Yuletide!)

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From:

cahn

(Though I'm biased, since I begrudge she's describing the Wilhelmine & MT lunch from the perspective of the backstage servants who don't even describe who said what but argue about the implications.)

Oh nooooo! Well, what's the use of that! :(

Which, again, I can understand given the chosen time frame and emphasis, but of course I regret it.

And of course I am right there with you :(

CN: "A bit of both, your highness, since I'm an actress."

I must admit I like this line :)

Wilhelmine has a moment of self realization there, only in her case it's "I'm a musician", and the novel takes music as her greatest passion seriously, and also shows her as a theatre and opera producer

I approve! :) Even if it is blatant :P

She's torn, but then says "No, Papa, you will never take my music from me again" and remains in Bayreuth, letting FW die without her and watching her fictional King, Argenore, kill himself after having realized he's destroyed his son and daughter.

I mean... I see

mildred_of_midgard has said it didn't happen that way at all, but I'm just gonna call this a fix-it and leave it at that, because it certainly is very cathartic :PP

but no. He does love her, the enstrangement is depicted as hailing from multiple causes, and when he comes through for her post reconciliation by paying off female Marwitz without a question because that means she'll finally depart and leave Wilhelmine's husband for good, Wilhelmine realises he's never stopped loving her and they still have each other.

Awwww! :D <3

F: Already did - Katte! I'm gay, I realise this now. Which I realized after Orzelska infected me with syphilis, thus curing me of heterosexuality forever

BWAHAHAHAHA okay I must admit I laughed really hard at this

Cornelia Naumann actually has Wilhelmine not just knowing about this but fully intending to escape along with Fritz to England (and marry Fritz of Wales).

Yeah, I like the theory as explaining all those burned letters (my perspective is, of course, a narrative one, not a historical one :D ) but the thing is that I feel like there is a fair amount of resentment of not knowing what Fritz is doing all through the memoirs. Also, she wasn't exactly writing them for publication, right? So would there have been an incentive for her to stick to the "official story"?

HOWEVER, all of this is also connected to the author's general characterisation of Wilhelmine very much enjoying sex (once BayreuthFriedrich has introduced her to it), which I didn't get the impression she did from her letters (but then, those are to her siblings, so...)

Wilhelmine with a strong sexual drive is definitely not in my headcanon! ~~otherwise maybe there would have been some of that incest after all~~

And, again, Minni: Yeah, our Prussian Overlord isn't too keen on his brother-in-law anyway, but what he definitely won't forgive is Wilhelmine taking a lover out of her own free will.

Ha, well, this I really do buy :P

From:

selenak

Well, what's the use of that! :(

My question precisely. I was so hoping I finally would read a fictional take on that encounter! It's even more frustrating because in addition to the servants on that occasion, later several other characters talk about it, since the author thinks by lunching with MT on that occasion, Wilhelmine saved Bayreuth from being annexed or at least invaded by Austria or becoming war ground between Austria and Prussia, and uses this as an example of how diplomacy wins. But we never find out what they said! (BTW, in real life, coming as it did when the second Silesian War was almost over, I'm not sure Austria had invading-Bayreuth-plans at this particular point, but certainly Bayreuth as a tiny Franconian principality with Bavaria next door, then Austria, and Fritz in the background did have the general problem of not being in a situation where they could have prevented any military takeover and needed to work with alliances and diplomacy a lot.

I must admit I like this line :)

So do I, hence my quoting it.

Also, she wasn't exactly writing them for publication, right?

Yes and no. She seems to have changed her intentions through the various manuscript stages, with the earliest 1739 one a "doing this for myself" matter, then at later points there are versions where she seems to intend her daughter to read it, and very late in the game, she seems to have readers in mind (such as in "Hey, I know my story is pretty gloomy; time for a comic relief interlude, featuring Fräulein von Pannnewitz punching Dad" passage, or in a very late one where after in a Fritz criticial passage she urges the readers not to be hasty and not to consider the portrait of this King drawn until the story is over. (Which it will never be, of course.) So I think at some point, she wrote for future generations as well as herself and her daughter. Meaning: she definitely didn't want any of her contemporaries to read it, especially not Fritz, but she wanted it to be read eventually.

So would there have been an incentive for her to stick to the "official story"?

Well, if she's an active con-conspirator encouraging Fritz to make that getaway and intending to make it with him, she also is to blame for the later disaster as much as he is, and like many a memoir, hers have her being inevitably right in her decisions and predictions (such as when she tells Katte to be careful etc.). Rare are the memoirs where someone declares "and then I completely fucked up when I should have known better".

This said, I think if Wilhelmine would have been as deeply involved in the failed escape attempt as that, she and Fritz would have referred to it at some point once they didn't have to fear FW reading their letters anymore. Also, as

felis says, I'm not sure how it could have been done, logistically. In Fiat Justicia, I had Katte engineer her escape spontanously and in the chaotic aftermath of the shock news of Fritz' death, and before FW has returned, which are circumstances that didn't arise in rl. Wilhelmine wasn't run ragged by FW the way Fritz was in early 1730, but she was very rarely alone, and she could not have, say, just ordered a carriage and a driver, or pretended she wanted to visit sister Friederike in Ansbach as an excuse. Remember, for any member of the royal family to travel anywhere, they had to get permission from the head of the family first - so FW, later Fritz -, and without such explicit permission, unless she was in disguise, she would not have made it out of Berlin, even. And you bet FW would not have let Fritz and Wilhelmine travel at the same time anywhere, certainly not in the first half of 1730!

(Otherwise, the easiest way they might have managed was the way Grandpa F1 did while still a prince bend believing the Elector and Stepmom had it in for him: visit Hannover, stay there instead of returning. But like I said - no way FW would have let them visit in the first place.)

What I do think is possible is that Wilhelmine knew more than she ever admitted - not exact details, especially since the plan kept changing, but at the very least, Fritz must have asked her for jewelry so he'd have money, and I don't think she believed it was all for books. But I also believe she was always hoping he wouldn't do it and never sure whether or not he would, hence her asking, as Katte himself testifies and as she mentions in her memoirs, whether Fritz would come back.

Also: until April 1730, there was still the hope the English Marriage Project would finally work out, and she and Fritz would get to leave legally, first for Hannover, then in her case for Britain.

I see we all agree on rejecting the idea of Wilhelmine with a strong sex drive. :)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

like many a memoir, hers have her being inevitably right in her decisions and predictions (such as when she tells Katte to be careful etc.). Rare are the memoirs where someone declares "and then I completely fucked up when I should have known better".

Yes, this. While I'm willing to believe that like literally everyone except possibly Peter Keith, she did try to talk Fritz out of this on the obvious grounds that it was incredibly risky and also that he would be leaving her behind in hell, there is an air of "And of course I was the only one with any freaking common sense" in her memoirs that I've always side-eyed as very hindsight-y.

Also, as [personal profile] felis says, I'm not sure how it could have been done, logistically

Agreed. If Sonsine the English-marriage-supporter is on board, she might have been able to help smuggle Wilhelmine out in disguise? But as you say, she likely wouldn't have had the motivation to take all that risk, when

until April 1730, there was still the hope the English Marriage Project would finally work out

Even later than that: Hotham doesn't leave until July 12, and July 15 is when Fritz and FW set off for their tour of the other provinces. That's not a lot of time to plan a Wilhelmine escape!

In conclusion: God, those poor kids.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I mean... I see [personal profile] mildred_of_midgard has said it didn't happen that way at all, but I'm just gonna call this a fix-it and leave it at that, because it certainly is very cathartic :PP

I agree with this, and what I didn't say in my original reply was that I liked this version better too! You go, Wilhelmine!