18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 33

[cahn]

And, I mean, it doesn't have to be just 18th century characters, either!

(also, waiting for Yuletide!)

Comments

Re: 1730 Trending Topics: Parma and Tuscany

[selenak]

Louis XV dies, my husband Philip abdicates and goes to France to be king there, and takes his oldest son, my stepson, to France, leaving me and my oldest son (Don Carlos) to rule Spain!

Mildred, in the AU where that happens, how would Philip had managed without a wife as caretaker at his side? Did he at least have Farinelli yet? Would his oldest son (if said son hadn't died as well) been up to the job? Would ruling France have stabilized him? And, most importantly, what kind of quip would Voltaire have made?

cahn, the duchy of Parma was established for Margaret and second husband Ottavio Farnese (the one who wet himself in the wedding night) just as the duchy of Tuscany was first ruled by Alessandro de' Medici, Margaret's first husband. Basically, Isabella wants two of Margaret's old duchies for her boy. (I say "two" not "both", because Margaret had even more duchies!)

The Spanish garrisons in Italy and the Austria vs Spain ongoing disputes are a plot point in the part of Casanova's memoirs that narrates the Bellino episode in his life, which takes place 1743. (Essentially: Casanova, nineteen, meeets Bellino, Castrato Singer, 17. Falls in love but is certain Bellino is in fact a woman. Lots of spirited arguments between the two and sparks fly. He gets temporarily depressed by a (fake) penis but when deciding he's attracted no matter what, Bellino reveals she is indeed a she, Teresa Lanti. (Who took this disguise because female sopranos weren't allowed on stage in any of the Italian states still belonging to the Church, which was a lot of them, including Bologna, where she was grom.) (Also, Teresa Lanti was an alias. Her real name was Angiola Calori. Casanova was thoughtful enough to change the names for a couple of still living ladies when writing down his memoirs. The identification of Bellino with historical soprano Angiola Calori wasn't made until people had access to the original manuscript again, which shows at one point the name "Angiola Calori" stricken out and replaced with "Teresa Lanti".) Anyway, Bellino and Casanova first met in an inn where another guest is the Spanish war commissioner Don Sancho, and later, after they are an item and travelling together, they run afoul of an Austrian garnison when it turns out Casanova has lost his passport, which means he's held there for some weeks until escaping and making it to the next Spanish garnison where they are delighted to help him even without a passport not because he's that charming but because anything to annoy the Austrians. So when I looked up the Bellino episode a couple of years ago I came across this Spain vs Austria peripherally.

Re: 1730 Trending Topics: Parma and Tuscany

[mildred_of_midgard]

Mildred, in the AU where that happens, how would Philip had managed without a wife as caretaker at his side?

You know, I was going from memory there and I may have been misremembering. She may have been assuming she would have to leave her son in Spain while she went to France. Maybe it depends on his age: maybe she stays in Spain until he doesn't need a regent any more.

Did he at least have Farinelli yet?

He does not! No Farinelli until 1737, alas.

I was checking Wikipedia to see if he'd made it to France before 1737, and the answer is no, but hey, check this out:

In 1726, he also visited Parma and Milan, where Johann Joachim Quantz heard him and commented: "Farinelli had a penetrating, full, rich, bright and well-modulated soprano voice, with a range at that time from the A below middle C to the D two octaves above middle C. ... His intonation was pure, his trill beautiful, his breath control extraordinary and his throat very agile, so that he performed the widest intervals quickly and with the greatest ease and certainty. Passagework and all kinds of melismas were of no difficulty to him. In the invention of free ornamentation in adagio he was very fertile." Quantz is certainly accurate in describing Farinelli as a soprano, since arias in his repertoire contained the highest notes customarily employed by that voice during his lifetime:

In case anyone wants to have Quantz mentioning Farinelli to Fritz in fanfic. It's historical! (Was Farinelli one of the singers Fritz tried to get from Italy and couldn't lure away? I forget.)

Would his oldest son (if said son hadn't died as well) been up to the job?

Well, which is the oldest son depends on the dates here. Before 1724, yeah, that's the one who becomes king for seven months when Philip abdicates, then dies of smallpox. After 1724, oldest (surviving) son is historical Ferdinand VI. Both sons of first wife Marie-Louise of Savoy. We've talked briefly about Ferdinand before, but all I have to go on is Wikipedia. It tells me he either inherited Dad's psychological problems or had different ones, was dependent on and faithful to his wife, and appears to have let his ministers do most of the ruling, as he was shy and insecure. So it might have ended up being Louis XV's reign all over again, minus the mistresses. ;)

But I'm handwaving this because I have no real idea. At some point, I might look for a source on the Spanish Bourbons in the latter half of the century; I only really know Philip V. (Whose bio first introduced me to the G1 letter about Gibraltar, because he was *obsessed* with it.)

Would ruling France have stabilized him?

Maybe! Or at least a little; there are very few silver bullets for mental illness. But post-1720, he did agonize over whether he had the right to rule Spain. So he would have been spared that, at least.

And, most importantly, what kind of quip would Voltaire have made?

A good one!

Basically, Isabella wants two of Margaret's old duchies for her boy. (I say "two" not "both", because Margaret had even more duchies!)

What were her other ones? Piacenza is sometimes listed separately as one of the territories Isabella, as a descendant of the Medici, claimed; sometimes it's just lumped under Parma. I lumped it for the sake of simplicity for cahn, who already has to deal with my 10,000 words of political infodumping. ;)

The Spanish garrisons in Italy and the Austria vs Spain ongoing disputes are a plot point in the part of Casanova's memoirs that narrates the Bellino episode in his life, which takes place 1743.

cahn, by 1743, Parma and Tuscany both belong to the Habsburgs, and Don Carlos is ruling in Naples and Sicily. But the War of the Austrian Succession is going on, which means Austria and Spain are fighting in Italy again. Parma and Piacenza will end up being passed back to Spain with the Treaty of Aix-la-Chapelle in 1748 (this is why it's so hard to get good maps of *every* territory change! and why you sometimes have to deal with 1648 or 1866 maps from me :P), and will be ruled by one of Isabella's younger sons.

Once Don Carlos becomes Charles III of Spain (when older half-brother Ferdinand VI dies in 1759), Don Carlos/Charles III has to leave Naples + Sicily to *his* son, namely walking, talking embarrassment Ferdinand, i.e. the one who was married to Maria Carolina and who slapped Joseph on the butt during his visit to Naples.

Re: 1730 Trending Topics: Parma and Tuscany

[selenak]

Piacenza was indeed one of them. (Pope Paul created both Parma and Piacenza as duchies for his son Pier Luigi, father of Margaret's second husband Ottavio Farnese.) But also the duchy of Penne, which was created for Alessandro de' Medici before he became Duke of Tuscany.

Was Farinelli one of the singers Fritz tried to get from Italy and couldn't lure away? I forget.

Me too, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't, because Farinelli was the superstar of superstars and frankly out of his financial league. However, Quantz' praise of him is really good to know!

Re: 1730 Trending Topics: Parma and Tuscany

[mildred_of_midgard]

Piacenza was indeed one of them. (Pope Paul created both Parma and Piacenza as duchies for his son Pier Luigi, father of Margaret's second husband Ottavio Farnese.) But also the duchy of Penne, which was created for Alessandro de' Medici before he became Duke of Tuscany.

Yeah, so, Penne is also one of the things Isabella wants that gets lumped under "Parma" and that goes to Don Carlos in 1731. Isabella is no slouch at wanting things that belonged to Margaret! (And yes, I should have said that it was as a Farnese, not as a descendant of the Medici, that Isabella wants Piacenza--the Medici ancestry is relevant to Tuscany.)

Me too, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't, because Farinelli was the superstar of superstars and frankly out of his financial league.

Yeah, especially if this is the Ruppin or early Rheinsberg period, because Farinelli was off the market in 1737, being in Spain. So yeah, probably not something Ruppin!Fritz felt he could aspire to.

Re: 1730 Trending Topics: Parma and Tuscany

[cahn]

Oh wow, that passage about Quantz on Farinelli is really cool! *takes notes*

Farinelli's vocal range

[mildred_of_midgard]

Since you guys are so interested in the Farinelli assessment, here's the rest of the paragraph that I didn't fully copy-paste:

Quantz is certainly accurate in describing Farinelli as a soprano, since arias in his repertoire contained the highest notes customarily employed by that voice during his lifetime: "Fremano l'onde" in Pietro Torri's opera Nicomede (1728) and "Troverai se a me ti fidi" in Niccolò Conforto's La Pesca (1737) both have sustained C6. His low range apparently extended to F3, as in "Al dolor che vo sfogando", an aria written by himself and incorporated in a pasticcio called Sabrina, and as in two of his own cadenzas for "Quell' usignolo innamorato" from Geminiano Giacomelli's Merope.