cahn

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cahn

And, I mean, it doesn't have to be just 18th century characters, either!

(also, waiting for Yuletide!)

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From:

cahn

Oh, yeah, right, as of course you know, Jude Morgan covers (if sometimes somewhat elliptically) the Louis-Minette stuff, both affair-ish and political (and de Guiche gets a couple of paragraphs too, though I don't think I realized quite the portent of it). I guess though that I hadn't realized that Minette was trusted more than Philippe politically speaking! (Though given the way he was portrayed in the book, that was clearly a conclusion one was supposed to draw.)

Was the Chevalier gone for all of Philippe's marriage with Liselotte? I had the vague idea from some vid of Versailles (...that you probably linked me, lol, I don't know who else would be linking me vids of Versailles) that he was around for some of it, but I'm probably extremely mixed up :)

(I don't think you linked me to the correspondence! Or at least not when I had any inkling of who these people were :) Heh, I could see menstruation horrifying Philippe... and not Charles :P )

From:

selenak

No, the Chevalier was still around. In Versailles, he and Liselotte eventually bond and become bffs. This did not happen in rl, where they tolerated each other at best, and I don't think it's a coincidence that she described the Chevalier-less final three years of her marriage as the happiest. He encured a few more banishments (one by pissing of Louis (again) by seducing Louis' illegitimate son the Duc de Vermandois) but always came back when Philippe pleaded enough. In the end, he had gambled away most of the massive fortune he'd gained as Philippe's favourite.

(BTW, the reason why everyone keeps referring to him as the Chevalier, even in Versailles, where he's a bit bitchy but otherwise a positive character, is that his first name was also Philippe. Which calls for an alternative.)

From:

cahn

and I don't think it's a coincidence that she described the Chevalier-less final three years of her marriage as the happiest.

Oof. Well, I guess... I am glad he went away eventually.

Philippe seems to have really liked him, huh, even though no one else seems to have?

From:

selenak

To be fair, everyone agrees he was one of the best looking men of his time, and sexy. He also had lovers other than Philippe. (Who wasn't monogamous, either, but the Chevalier was always his favorite once the affair with de Guiche was over.) But yeah, I haven't come across a memoirist or letter writer of the era with anything good to say about his character.

Lehndorff (pointedly): This sounds familiar. *glares in the direction of all of Heinrich's other lovers*

Mara: I told you one doesn't get anywhere with this prince without being a bastard. Not my fault you didn't listen.

Kalckreuth: I'll have you know I could have had Fritz as a young man, I'm sure of it, and I had a great career in the eras of FW2 and FW3! Not to mention that when Heinrich broke up with me because of goddam Kaphengst, half his court was on my side! I was so liked, too!

Kaphengst: kommt.

Back to the Chevalier, Philippe seems to have loved him for real - as in, great passion of his life, - but whether or not the Chevalier ever saw something in him beyond lots and lots of cash, well, that's debatable. As opposed to Philippe, he had female lovers in addition to male ones, and according to Saint-Simon, he secretly married. Not that being bi would prevent him from loving a man, but he never seems to have given up anything for Philippe, which if he had would have been an indication of love beyond cash. Saint-Simon also says he died of a stroke when excitedly telling ladies about his debaucheries from the previous night, so he definitely went out with a splash!