18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 32

[cahn]

:) Still talking about Charles XII of Sweden / the Great Northern War and the Stuarts and the Jacobites, among other things!

Comments

Re: Jacobites and treason

[selenak]

I love The Graveyard Book myself, but it took reading up on the Monmouth, Assizes (and Russell) executions for me to realise that "Jack Ketch" was an actual historical person before he became a proverbial figure. After the Russell execution, he wrote a pamphlet defending himself by saying essentially "I didn't do it intentionally" and "it was his fault, he moved!!!!", but by the time of the Monmouth execution, he didn't bother anymore.

Note that both Russell and Monmouth were executed with the axe, while Katte got his one stroke with a sword. Dimly recalling my Anne Boleyn facts, I think one reason why the sword worked generally better but was far less often used was that precisely because it was used more rarely, a sword was generally sharper, and the executioner had to put more effort and precision into swinging it.

"The Faithful Executioner" by Joel Harrington, right? It's very readable and provides a good general picture of the lives of executioners and their families in the HRE.

Axes and swords

[mildred_of_midgard]

I think one reason why the sword worked generally better but was far less often used was that precisely because it was used more rarely, a sword was generally sharper, and the executioner had to put more effort and precision into swinging it.

So, caveat one that I've never wielded either weapon, and caveat two that what I'm remembering is probably from historical fiction, because I've never actually sought out information on sword or axe use, but I have an interest in weapons to go with my interest in the military, so when details on using them come up, I pay attention. And what I've learned is that the axe is more counterintuitive to wield in an execution. People want to grab the axe and move it to its destination. But because it's so heavy, that usually means they can't control it with precision, and it goes astray. The technique for wielding an axe during an execution (or chopping wood) that I've read about is to let gravity do the work of moving the axe, and use your muscles to just guide it. This is very counterintuitive because people instinctively try to force the axe to go where they want.

Whereas with a sword, it's very light, and your job is to move it to where you want it to go. So as long as you've got decent aim, getting it into the right place is more intuitive.

Related to this is the fact that people like Anne Boleyn and Katte are described as kneeling down but keeping their backs straight, so the sword moves horizontally. (The executioner is the one moving it.) People being executed by axe are laying their heads on the chopping block, so the axe moves vertically. (Gravity should be moving it, the executioner should be just guiding it.)

This is why the most common failure mode I learned for executions by axe is for the blade to land either at a skewed angle that means the blade can't go straight through the neck, and/or in some part of the body it can't chop through, like the base of the skull or the top of the torso.

The trick to executing someone with an axe is to keep the blade straight and centered while it falls, so it can make a clean cut through the weakest part of the neck. Judging by the description you shared of Monmouth's execution, Ketch failed to do that.

Of course, if you're being made to execute a prodigious number of people per day, you might also not have time to sharpen your axe on a whetstone between executions!

Digression: Speaking of axes being heavier than swords, if anyone has learned that medieval swords were super heavy and difficult to wield, every reliable source I've encountered says (usually ranting about their pet peeve) that this is slander, aka an urban legend. I forget the details but I think someone has traced the historiography of the claim back to the early 18th century or something.

Anyway, the medievals were very competent at killing people and did not make swords that were borderline impossible to lift. If you're used to fencing with a rapier and you try out a medieval broadsword, it will feel heavy at first, but only in the sense that a tennis racquet will feel heavy to someone used to playing ping-pong. It doesn't mean a tennis racquet weighs ~10kg/20 lbs. According to the numbers I always see, medieval broadswords are usually about 1-1.5 kg/2.5-3.5 lbs, not usually more than 2 kg/4.5 lbs.

#petpeeve

(Yes, I wrote a class paper on this in grad school, comparing this to the claim by archaeologists that members of some societies in the Aegean Bronze Age were using chariots inefficiently to conduct their warfare. My argument was basically, "Bronze Age warriors weren't likely to have been idiots any more than medieval knights were idiots. Here's an analysis of how chariot warfare as practiced in these locales could have been very efficient indeed.")

"The Faithful Executioner" by Joel Harrington, right? It's very readable and provides a good general picture of the lives of executioners and their families in the HRE.

Yep, that one! I liked the Kindle sample, so I'm glad the book itself gets a thumbs up from you. That bumps it up my wishlist slightly. (Slightly because so many books have thumbs up from you. :D)

Re: Axes and swords

[cahn]

So, a) this was fascinating, b) I'm not sure how I feel about thinking in that much detail about the mechanics of axe executions and how they might fail :PP

Re: Axes and swords

[mildred_of_midgard]

We all bring different background knowledge to salon. Some of us know about opera, and some of us know about different ways of killing people. :P

Re: Axes and swords

[luzula]

I've chopped a fair amount of wood in my day, but I sure wouldn't like to try chopping off someone's head with an axe! Uh, for the obvious reason, of course, but also I feel that with wood, you are working with a natural direction of cleavage which a neck doesn't have. I wonder if the axes were heavier than normal wood-chopping axes, to get through better.

Re: Axes and swords

[mildred_of_midgard]

but I sure wouldn't like to try chopping off someone's head with an axe! Uh, for the obvious reason, of course

LOLOL, no, I was totally assuming it was only the technique that was deterring you. *g*

I wonder if the axes were heavier than normal wood-chopping axes, to get through better.

Maybe! Also, notice that with wood-chopping axes you have to distinguish between felling axes, which are meant to be swung horizontally, at a vertical tree, and are lighter (like swords), and splitting axes, which are meant to be swung vertically at a horizontal log, and can be a bit heavier.

Random googling concurs that beheading axes are indeed a significant step up in weight even from splitting axes! Which yes, means a major failure mode is going to be landing the axe in the wrong place and/or at the wrong angle, and hitting bone (that isn't a vertebra).

(Guys, I'm not an axe murderer, I promise. :D)

Re: Axes and swords

[luzula]

beheading axes are indeed a significant step up in weight even from splitting axes!

Oh, that makes sense.

(Guys, I'm not an axe murderer, I promise. :D)

It's okay, you have convinced me that if you're going to murder someone you would prefer a sword over an axe! : P

Re: Axes and swords

[mildred_of_midgard]

I actually laughed out loud. :'D

Re: Axes and swords

[cahn]

ahahahaha! :D :P