cahn

In which, despite the title, I would like to be told about the English Revolution, which is yet another casualty of my extremely poor history education :P :)

Also, this is probably the place to say that RMSE opened with three Fritz-fics, all of which I think are readable with minimum canon knowledge:

The Boy Who Lived - if you knew about the doomed escape-from-Prussia-that-didn't happen and tragic death of Fritz's boyfriend Hans Hermann von Katte, you may not have known about Peter Keith, the third young man who conspired to escape Prussia -- and the only one who actually did. This is his story. I think readable without canon knowledge except what I just said here.

Challenge Yourself to Relax - My gift, I posted about this before! Corporate AU with my problematic fave, Fritz' brother Heinrich, who's still Fritz's l'autre moi-meme even in corporate AU. Readable without canon knowledge if one has familiarity with the corporate world and the dysfunctions thereof.

The Rise and Fall of the RendezvousWithFame Exchange - Fandom AU with BNF fanfic writer Voltaire, exchange mod Fritz, and the inevitable meltdown. (I wrote this one and am quite proud of the terrible physics-adjacent pun contained within.) Readable without canon knowledge if one has familiarity with fandom and the dysfunctions thereof :P

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From:

selenak

Putting this separately, since it's not about the smallpox questions, but: Who is "everyone" re: the girls? Because while I never read a Louis XV biography, I was under the impression that the extent to which Louis was carrying on with girls in addition to whichever maitresse en titre he had at the time is debated, due to some of it being written off as propaganda? And that they should have been pre pubescent is new to me even within the worst case stories? Here I'm thinking of reading the 1763 anonymous pamphlet which I had to check due to the Fredersdorf reference which turned out to be there because the pamphleteer was majorly ripping off Voltaire in terms of the Fritz section. Remember, there was a French part where he bashes Pompadour, and the Austrians also get bashed, but the Russians are mysteriously missing (read: it's after Peter became Czar). Anyway, the Pompadour section has the "she's pimping out girls to Louis" bit in them, but the pamphleteer does emphatically not say anything about the girls being little more than children, which you'd think he would given the aim is to show how awful Pompadour and Louis are.

I'm honestly asking. Wikipedia can't seem to make up its mind on this, for in the English language Louis XV wiki entry you have:

Another popular legend concerned the Maison-aux-Cerfs, the house in Versailles where, when he was no longer having sexual relations with Madame de Pompadour, he sometimes slept with his petites maitresses, young women recruited for that purpose. Popular legends at the time described it as a kind of harem, organized by Madame de Pompadour, where a group of women were kidnapped and kept for the King's pleasure. The legend circulated widely in pamphlets with lurid illustrations, and made its way into some later biographies of the King. In reality it had only one occupant at a time, for brief periods. Madame Pompadour herself accepted it as a preferable alternative to a rival at court, as she stated: "It is his heart I want! All these little girls with no education will not take it from me. I would not be so calm if I saw some pretty woman of the court or the capital trying to conquer it." In February 1765, after the death of Madame de Pompadour, it was closed.

Whereas in the linked Maison aux Cerf entry it says:

Parc-aux-Cerfs (literally, stag park), in France, was generally the name given to the clearings that provided hunting fields for the French aristocracy prior to the French Revolution.[1] The name is most notoriously known in history for an area in the grounds of the Palace of Versailles and a house there owned by Louis XV, where his secret mistresses were accommodated, being taken from there to the palace to visit the king.

The house was small and discrete. According to the myth, the arrangement was supervised by the king's official mistress, Madame de Pompadour, who remained close to him, but no longer had a physical relationship with him. Nancy Mitford states in her Madame de Pompadour (1968 revised edition) that "[she] had nothing whatever to do with it".[2] The lovers were in fact recruited by the king's chamber servant, Dominique Guillaume Lebel.[3]

Between 1752 and 1768, many women and girls lived in the house, often more than one at a time, many of which are unidentified. Among the famous lovers of the Parc-aux-Cerfs were Marie-Louise O'Murphy (in 1752-1755) with her sister Brigitte O'Murphy (1755-1757); Jeanne-Marguerite de Niquet "Mme Véron de Séranne" (1754); Marie Louise de Marny, Madame de Giambone (1758); Marguerite-Catherine Haynault (1759-1762); Lucie-Madeleine d'Estaing (1760-1763); Louise-Jeanne de Tiercelin de La Colleterie (1762-1765); Marie-Thérèse Boisselet (1768); Jeanne-Marguerite Salvetat "Madame Mars" (1768) and, finally Madame du Barry (1768). The house was sold in 1771.

Of course, both entries cite different biographies of Louis XV. in their footnotes. (And contradict each other among several things as to when the establishment was closed (1765 or 1771). Neither, though, says anything about the girls' age.

Dubarry's entry, otoh, mentions nothing about her having been in the Maison aux Cerfs at all. Instad, it says she came to the King thusly:

As Mademoiselle Lange, Jeanne immediately became a sensation in Paris, building up a large aristocratic clientele. She had many lovers from the king's ministers to his courtiers.[10] The dashing yet old Maréchal de Richelieu became one of her recurring lovers. Because of this, Jean du Barry saw her as a means of influence over Louis XV, who became aware of her in 1768 while she was on an errand at Versailles. The errand involved the duc de Choiseul, Minister of Foreign Affairs, who found her rather ordinary, in contrast to what most other men thought of her. The king took a great interest in her and obtained her identity with the help of his personal valet and procurer, Dominique Guillaume Lebel. Jeanne was escorted to the royal boudoir frequently, and it was soon becoming a worrying issue to Lebel when this liaison was seemingly becoming more than just a passing fling. In any case, Jeanne could not qualify as a maîtresse-en-titre unless she had a title; however after divulging with the king that Jeanne was nothing but a harlot, the king ordered that Jeanne be wedded to a man of strong lineage so she may be brought to court as per protocol. This was solved by her marriage on 1 September 1768 to du Barry's brother, Comte Guillaume du Barry. The marriage ceremony included a false birth certificate created by Jean du Barry himself, making Jeanne younger by three years and of fictitious noble descent.[11]

The Dubarry entry says about Louis' death:

In time, the king started to show his age by constantly thinking of death and repentance, and began missing appointments in Jeanne's boudoir.[27] During a stay at the Petit Trianon with her, Louis XV felt the first symptoms of smallpox. He was brought back to the palace at night and put to bed, where his three daughters and Madame du Barry stayed beside him. On 4 May 1774, the king suggested to Madame du Barry that she leave Versailles, both to protect her from infection and so that he could prepare for confession and last rites.[28] She was relieved of her duties by Doctor Lemonnier and immediately retired to Aiguillon's estate near Rueil, as were his wishes.

Again, no mention of girls (of whichever age) as cause for his smallpox infection. My Duc de Croy book is in Munich as well, which is a shame since he does have an extensive diary entry about Louis' death.

All of which sounds to me as if there are a lot of uncertainty and contradictory sources involved. In any event: who is "everyone"?

Edited Date: 2021-09-14 09:48 am (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

All of which sounds to me as if there are a lot of uncertainty and contradictory sources involved. In any event: who is "everyone"?

Unfortunately for rigor, I have to confess "everyone" is:

1) Massie saying "barely pubescent."

2) A memory of god knows what sources I read twenty years ago, claiming that Louis would have the girls introduced very young and groom them until they hit puberty, at which point they were ready to be mistresses.

3) Some modern author I read in the last couple months who said he got smallpox from some anonymous peasant/lower-class? girl he slept with, but who may not have specified the age, and I of course forget who said it. (See?! This is why I need to write article drafts while I still remember where I read what!)

I have read the Wikipedia articles before and noticed the uncertainty and contradictions. I feel like we maybe even discussed them? I specifically remember noticing that Mitford was the attorney for the defense of Pompadour.

I'm perfectly willing for this to have been propaganda; I'm not knowledgeable enough to have an opinion. I would like them not to have been hitting puberty at the the time they started having sex with the king. But nothing I've read about men in power makes me think that Loui, other than the extramarital parts couldn't have convinced himself there was nothing wrong with this.

Speaking in general terms, Horowski says that while twelve was old enough for (at least a royal) marriage in France, sexual consummation of the marriage was put off until the bride was thirteen and a half and the groom sixteen, because sex younger than that was considered unhealthy. So if he's right, then having sex with a thirteen-year-old would probably not have pinged Louis' morality radar at all. (And he was already managing to shut off the extramarital sex part of the radar.)

From:

selenak

Oh, I have no doubt Louis had sex with teenage girls. (Or that powerful men of all times have no problem exploiting same, or young boys, if that's their inclination instead.) But I had mentally cast them as 14 upwards, not 12/13, and definitely post, not pre puberty. (Especially since his more long term mistresses - the ones pre-Pompadour, as well as the Marquise herself and Dubarry) all were adult women with fully mature looks, not with slight-childlike figures.) Now it occured to me that since the most famous of these "little mistresses" modelled for Boucher, and I dimly recalled seeing the painting in question years ago at the Alte Pinakothek in Munich, she could be looked up both in terms of looks and biography and yes indeed, Louise O'Murphy, here she is:

Her grandfather had emigrated from Ireland to Normandy, her father had managed to end up in prison for a while due to being accused of stealing incriminating correspondence from none of other than BPC's Dad and J2's son, James Francis Stuart "The Old Pretender". (Incriminating to the French government, that is.) Her mother and sisters were also on record for being arrested several times for prostitution. After the death of her father, her mother moved the family from Rouen to Paris in 1753. (Louise had been born in 1737.) She modelled for Boucher, and then we have three different origin stories for how that led to her becoming Louis' mistress at age 14.

a) Casanova, in his memoirs claims he'd met her a year earlier (when she was 13) and persuaded Boucher to paint her. thus making her fortune. Wiki thinks he most likely made that up as an old man writing in Bohemia.

b) Jean Meunier, police inspector, notes in his diary as a rumor in May 1753: They say that the youngest Morfi, fourth sister and therefore the youngest served as a model of the Boucher painting, he painted her naked and gave or sold the painting to Monsieur de Vandières [brother of Madame de Pompadour] and when the King saw it, became intrigued if the painter hadn't flattered the model, so he asked to see the youngest Morfi, and after their meeting, he found her even better that the painting.

c) Otoh, third possibility: Monsieur de Vandières, Director of the King's Buildings (Bâtiments du Roi) in a letter dated 19 February 1753, gave a peculiar order to the painter Charles-Joseph Natoire in Rome, who provides elements that suggests that he was in possession of the portrait of Marie-Louise O'Murphy made by Boucher, and he was able to show it to the King:

I had a private room that I wanted to enrich with four pieces of the most expert painters of our school. I already had a van Loo, a Boucher and a Pierre. You can judge that lacks a Natoire ... Because the room was very small and secret, I wanted nudity: the painting of Carle who represents the sleeping Antiope, and the painting of Boucher of a young woman lying on her stomach ...

Then it is Dominique-Guillaume Lebel, first valet of the King's chamber, who had the delicate and secret mission to negotiate the "virginity" of the girl and bring her back to Versailles. Thus the Marquis d'Argenson in his diary, dated on 1 April 1753, recorded that "Lebel was in Paris to bring a new virgin ... then he contacted a dressmaker named Fleuret, who provides the lovers with dresses from his shop at Saint Honoré". By 30 March, he still did not know the identity of Marie-Louise O'Murphy and he refers to a "little girl who was a model in Boucher" and the King "would have seen Lebel his valet".

Common demoninator: Louis saw the painting, liked it, ordered the girl, liked her. She remained his mistress for two years during which time she also had a child, Agathe-Louse (born in June 1754), and then made the mistake of trying to topple Madame de Pompadour as the Maitresse-en-titre. This led to her being married off and sent away in no time flat (literary, at 4 am in the morning). Not badly married, mind: the new husband was well-born, young, a good soldier, and she got a sizable dowry from Louis. However, as bad luck would have it, after some years in which Louise gave birth to two more children, he died at....drumroll...the Battle of Rossbach. (Really a bad day for France, no question about it.)

She then remarried, a rich divorcee distantly related to Madame de Pompadour's ex husband d'Ettioles, and in this second marriage showed herself very good at hitting the financial scene and multiplying her assets and fortune. She had another daughter, who in one theory may actually have been not his but Louis' kid. Support cited for the idea Louis and she had sex again at this point were three factors:

- The King gave Louise O'Murphy the sum of 350,000 livres between 1771–1772 (Marguerite, then a three-years-old child, surpassed the dangerous first year of infancy, and Louis XV probably wanted to protect the mother of his child);

- When Marguerite married in 1786 all the royal family was present and signed the marriage contract, and

- After the Bourbon Restoration, King Charles X gave Marguerite an "annual indemnity" from his own treasure.

If she did rekindle her affair with Louis and Marguerite was the result, all the gossips missed it, though. (Her oldest daughter, Agathe, was not raised by her, btw. In November 1773, when Agathe-Louise was old enough to marry, Louis XV granted her letters of Official Recognition of Nobility, which enabled her to marry a nobleman. From then, she was considered a member of "the oldest nobility" (issue de la plus ancienne noblesse). The King also maintained that Agathe-Louise "had the titles and noble qualities acquired by right of birth without it may be required to bring in other securities or evidence we have provided". Beautiful, young, with a strong resemblance with Louis XV and now rich after she received from the King a capital of 223,000 livres, a marriage proposal was presented to the King by his favorite, the Comtesse du Barry: Agathe-Louise could marry her nephew Adolphe du Barry, son of Jean du Barry, who reportedly "had one of the worst reputations of the 18th century". Louis XV opposed the project, considering the du Barry were "a family of freaks". Finally, was chosen Mans-Jean-René de la Tour du Pin, Marquis de la Charce as the husband of Agathe-Louise, with the wedding being celebrated at the Parisian Convent of the Visitation on 27 December 1773. Despite the rejection of her nephew, the Comtesse du Barry facilitates the debut at the court of the young Marquise de la Charce. Nine months after her marriage, Agathe-Louise dies, probably a consequence of a miscarriage, on 6 September 1774, four months after Louis XV's death.)

(Sidenote: while Louis XV paid for the upbringing of his illegitimate children and provided a dowry (when female) or established them professionally (when male), he did not officially recognize them as his. This was because great grandpa Louis XIV had recognized his bastards who subsequently had become hugely influential politicians and had married into the royal family (notably when Liselotte's son Philippe II. d'Orleans married Louis XIV's illegimate daughter, to her ever lasting indignation; while Louis XIV's illegitimate son the Duc de Maine was Philippe' II's main rival for the regency). Louis XV. did not want to follow this example.)

Husband No.2 died in 1783. During the Revolution, Louise was locked up due to her past association with the royals, but got out and married husband No.3., who was a deputy at the National Assembly and 28 years younger than her. That marriage lasted only three years, though, and they then divorced. Louise died in 1814 at age 77 at the home of her daughter Marguerite, having spent her last years in comfort and with several state pensions.

None of which tells us how young the other girls were, or whether he got infect with smallpox by one, but it shows her as one of life's survivors in circumstances that would have destroyed her, to be sure.