Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 30
Sep. 8th, 2021 09:52 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahnIn which, despite the title, I would like to be told about the English Revolution, which is yet another casualty of my extremely poor history education :P :)
Also, this is probably the place to say that RMSE opened with three Fritz-fics, all of which I think are readable with minimum canon knowledge:
The Boy Who Lived - if you knew about the doomed escape-from-Prussia-that-didn't happen and tragic death of Fritz's boyfriend Hans Hermann von Katte, you may not have known about Peter Keith, the third young man who conspired to escape Prussia -- and the only one who actually did. This is his story. I think readable without canon knowledge except what I just said here.
Challenge Yourself to Relax - My gift, I posted about this before! Corporate AU with my problematic fave, Fritz' brother Heinrich, who's still Fritz's l'autre moi-meme even in corporate AU. Readable without canon knowledge if one has familiarity with the corporate world and the dysfunctions thereof.
The Rise and Fall of the RendezvousWithFame Exchange - Fandom AU with BNF fanfic writer Voltaire, exchange mod Fritz, and the inevitable meltdown. (I wrote this one and am quite proud of the terrible physics-adjacent pun contained within.) Readable without canon knowledge if one has familiarity with fandom and the dysfunctions thereof :P
Also, this is probably the place to say that RMSE opened with three Fritz-fics, all of which I think are readable with minimum canon knowledge:
The Boy Who Lived - if you knew about the doomed escape-from-Prussia-that-didn't happen and tragic death of Fritz's boyfriend Hans Hermann von Katte, you may not have known about Peter Keith, the third young man who conspired to escape Prussia -- and the only one who actually did. This is his story. I think readable without canon knowledge except what I just said here.
Challenge Yourself to Relax - My gift, I posted about this before! Corporate AU with my problematic fave, Fritz' brother Heinrich, who's still Fritz's l'autre moi-meme even in corporate AU. Readable without canon knowledge if one has familiarity with the corporate world and the dysfunctions thereof.
The Rise and Fall of the RendezvousWithFame Exchange - Fandom AU with BNF fanfic writer Voltaire, exchange mod Fritz, and the inevitable meltdown. (I wrote this one and am quite proud of the terrible physics-adjacent pun contained within.) Readable without canon knowledge if one has familiarity with fandom and the dysfunctions thereof :P
Salon original discoveries
Date: 2021-09-13 10:44 pm (UTC)Speaking of original historical discoveries that have been made in
1) Fredersdorf's exoneration + Pfeiffer's conviction.
2) Fritz lying to Katte and the MT marriage project.
3) Peter Keith's life story. The reason my oft-advertised post is taking so long is that I keep trying to write it at a journal-level quality rather than a Rheinsberg-level quality.
Additionally, we've made some contributions to Catt's sources, plus I think the field could use a reminder of what Koser said. I suspect I'll have a better idea of what would belong in an article, as well as hopefully some new ideas, once I switch to studying French and reread the diary and memoirs, plus some other French sources.
And it miiiight be worth laying out how we know that Fredersdorf didn't pretend to be ill and get married within 24 hours of getting permission, and what really happened, since enough authors, including recent ones, are still telling that story.
The reasons I haven't made more progress on turning any of these into proper articles:
* As a professor once described to me in a perfect analogy, research is like felling trees: quick and satisfying. Producing a peer-review quality academic papers, on the other hand, is like pulling up tree stumps: slow and tedious. Salon is so great precisely because we just fell trees all day long, and only occasionally have to pull up some tree stumps for Rheinsberg (like collating all those separate posts for the MT marriage project post), and even then we have far fewer stumps to pull up and we can stop whenever we want without feeling like irresponsible scholars.
* Multiply tree-stump pulling difficulty by 100 when the stumps are in a language I barely know. (See also the other reason why Peter's life story is taking forever.)
* No external motivation for pulling up these tree stumps. I'm not getting paid, no one is going, "When is this going to be done?", no one else cares.
* I haven't done and can't do a proper literature survey to see what's been said by recent researchers in journal articles: weak German, no paywall access, no university library access (or ability to use libraries due to pandemics plus back pain).
* As discussed in another thread today, we have limited ability to use the archives, due to: pandemic restrictions, lack of German (me), lack of French (all of us), lack of paleography skills (all of us except one person who rarely participates).
That said, if other people were also excited about the prospect of doing this, and turning our findings into publishable essays were more of a group project, I'd be more likely to knock out drafts for discussion. And by "knock out," given our collective lack of free time and my slowness with German, I mean "sometime in the next year? Maybe?" But any kind of external motivation would help me not drag my feet so much on the stump pulling.
So how do other people feel about publication? My motivation to turn research into papers is much greater if, for example,
Re: Salon original discoveries
Date: 2021-09-14 05:05 am (UTC)But also all the other ones too. Particularly Fritz lying to Katte was the sort of !! moment that I feel like should be more widely disseminated!
Re: Salon original discoveries
Date: 2021-09-14 11:22 pm (UTC)Can you tell the book digitizing project is almost done? Ha.
although I don't suppose I can contribute much except cheerleading
Look, guys. Given the sheer difficulty of these projects even compared to my normal research, nothing except maaaybe Peter Keith is happening without serious cheerleading and possibly fake-angry yelling. :P So this is a *major* contribution.
It's also great that of the top 3 priorities, 1 is the one I'm motivated to work on on my own, and the other 2 are the ones you're motivated to cheer me on about! Alchemy may come through for us again. :D
as a contributor to the Fredersdorf Defense Fund
Lol, well, I've been meaning to say that if you hadn't brought this up repeatedly and had Strong Indignant Feelings, I would never have gotten interested and would have just headcanoned the fake news of his dismissal! It was only you mentioning it over and over again that made it into an itch that I couldn't scratch.
Which I then, uh, scratched. :P (Emailed Buwert, emailed Fahlenkamp, emailed random dude named Fredersdorf, spent hours trying to trace down possible Wiki sources, bought random book sight unseen (aided by your contribution to the fund), got the address where Selena's currently staying...I went above and beyond, is what I'm saying.)
I also have been laughing ever since you sent me the Amazon gift card about what your face would have looked like if someone had asked you to contribute to the Fredersdorf Defense Fund in early 2019. "Fredersdorf who?" And now you're like "TAKE MY MONEY!" :DD
Salon is so great. I can't get over how great salon is.
Re: Salon original discoveries
Date: 2021-09-16 04:44 am (UTC)...which fic was written at least in part because we knew that Selena had written us both fics and felt that she should get one as well :D (I mean, we thought so anyway, Selena! But that sort of tipped me over into emailing mildred and being all "hey, let's do this thing!")
Salon!! <3
Re: Salon original discoveries
Date: 2021-09-14 08:51 am (UTC)This said, I'd be glad to help as before, of course. Also, I think you should not go for a single article but several. Firstly, I'd start with the Peter Keith life story, and this life story only. You have enough material for an essay there, it makes for a better focus, and anyone looking up Peter in the future will be profoundly grateful.
Secondly, I'm not sure whether in an academic context, you could speak of Fredersdorf's exoneration, because among ourselves, we can use "this doesn't feel likely" etc., for example, but one can't in an academic context. I would, however, say that it's worth putting all the (partially conflicting) Fredersdorf related quotes (up and including both Lehndorff and Henckel von Donnersberg in 1757, after Fredersdorf isn't in office anymore but before he has died, listing Glasow as one of the reasons for his retirement according to rumor they've heard, but NOT anything about an embezzlement) in an essay. However, this would also have to include Des Champs' claims for the prosecution, and between us not having read the letters from Formey to Des Champs (who might or might not contain any Fredersdorf related intel) and us not having read the letter of Fredersdorf's successor to Fredersdorf re: Glasow's wrongdoings, I would wait for any publication until someone, preferably
Which leaves me with suggesting the second essay, separate from the Keith essay, could contain the MT marriage project and Katte stuff, and a reminder of the sadly forgotten exposure of Henri de Catt by Koser, complete with our additional sources.
In summation: start with Peter Keith, and Peter Keith only.
Re: Salon original discoveries
Date: 2021-09-14 11:13 pm (UTC)Too bad, I'd love to have you get proper co-author credit! But this makes total sense. My boundaries are more permeable: I don't want prospective employers casually searching for my name to come up with Dreamwidth (which is why I don't want anyone using my extremely rare r/l name in DW, it *will* come up in searches for my name), but if someone's reading Dreamwidth and they can figure out my real name based on clues, or they're reading my academic papers and they find this Mildred person espousing a lot of the same opinions, I can live with that. But then, I'm in a different situation from you.
Also, I think you should not go for a single article but several
Agreed, I was never intending to do anything else. I guess I didn't spell that out because it seemed so obvious that each topic is its own article. I'm not even sure how'd you combine them. "Things my friends and I discovered about Fritz's boyfriends"? Not exactly going to impress an editor. ;)
Secondly, I'm not sure whether in an academic context, you could speak of Fredersdorf's exoneration
Having reread your comment several times, I *think* the confusion is because we're talking about different exonerations. I'm talking about the thing I thought we had agreed on: that we feel pretty good about him not having been dismissed for involvement in the Kiekemal affair. Des Champs is, if anything, vaguely supporting evidence, since 1) he discusses Fredersdorf's embezzlement without ever mentioning him being dismissed, 2) seems to be implying that Fritz is covering it up because if he admitted Fredersdorf embezzled, he'd have to start paying back owed money.
Whether or not Fredersdorf ever engaged in financial irregularities is not something we can decide. As we've discussed, the Kiekemal affair looks not totally aboveboard, but we don't know what his motives were. All we can say is that the claim that he died of a broken heart after being dismissed for the Kiekemal affair is based on a publication that doesn't cite sources, and we have some counterevidence, so people should stop repeating this claim until and unless they can produce evidence stronger than our counterevidence. (This is how epistemology works: your claims are only valid until someone produces stronger evidence against your claims.)
between us not having read the letters from Formey to Des Champs (who might or might not contain any Fredersdorf related intel) and us not having read the letter of Fredersdorf's successor to Fredersdorf re: Glasow's wrongdoings, I would wait for any publication until someone, preferably [personal profile] prinzsorgenfrei, can look up the original letters in the archives, check and get a transcription.
My plan has always been to hold off on publication until we can get the letter of the successor. That's top of the archive wishlist I mentioned! It's one letter, it's in German, we have a summary, and we know the exact archival reference to order it by.
I would consider the Des Champs letters a nice to have, unless you think they're likely to provide evidence that Fredersdorf was dismissed for his participation in the Kiekemal affair.
I'd also like to hold off on Peter Keith publications until we can get our hands on his letters from the archive, and possibly his marriage record, because Kloosterhuis gives two different months, but does cite the record location so that we can order it.
Conclusion: I'd leave out anything Fredersdorf related.
While I want to hold off on publication, the sooner I produce a draft of what we have, the better. My experience writing papers is that the stump-pulling consists largely of remembering where you read what you're claiming banging your head against knowing you read it *somewhere* and always having to drop one or two pieces of evidence because you can't turn up the source. Multiply by some large number if the sources are in a language you can't skim and half of them someone summarized for you anyway. So if I'm/we're doing this, I really want to start getting what we know down on paper before you and I forget where we read it. (See also why Peter is taking so long: I'm trying to reread the German sources and compile the facts plus citations in abbreviated note format, before producing readable paragraphs.)
could contain the MT marriage project and Katte stuff, and a reminder of the sadly forgotten exposure of Henri de Catt by Koser, complete with our additional sources.
I'm not really following how these are closely linked enough to be a single essay. My intention was for Catt to be an entirely separate essay analyzing the sources of his memoirs. Which I'm not remotely qualified to even draft yet, and will only do if I manage to get German to a stopping point, switch to French, and do a close reading of his diary, his memoirs, Voltaire's memoirs, Koser's preface, etc. Realistically, producing anything publishable about Catt is a stretch, since I'm still in the early research stages.
But what were you thinking in terms of combining them into a single essay? Maybe you have a good idea that hasn't occurred to me.
So what I'm proposing is:
Essay 1: Peter's life story.
Essay 2: The Kiekemal affair:
a) How sources claiming Fredersdorf was dismissed over it are derived from a source that doesn't support its claim with citations. The counterevidence to this claim.
b) How sources claiming Pfeiffer was found innocent are based on an unreliable source, and more reliable looking evidence indicates he was found guilty. How the story got changed over time.
Essay 3: Evidence that Fritz lied to Katte based on his willingness to embrace the marriage project just a few months later, and the fact that their stories agreed otherwise. I'd like to include your findings on how Fritz was probably very surprised the Austrians didn't take the bait, based on Wilhelmine's memoirs and Charlotte's reaction to a similar rumor.
Essay 4: IF I ever learn French and dedicate the research time, repeat Koser's evidence that Catt put words in Fritz's mouth, and supplement that with a source analysis of whatever we've been able to find. (I like the thought of including your point about Heinrich under the table and the POV.)
What do you guys think about
Essay 5: The true story of how Fredersdorf got engaged and married, and the history of the false version.
?
The problem is that it would likely be quite short, but if you guys think there's enough value, maybe we could find someone who accepts essays that are shorter than the norm. Some journals do.
In summation: start with Peter Keith, and Peter Keith only.
Peter's the only one I'm currently working on, but if we're even thinking about maybe publishing the others someday, I need to start creating drafts for them asap, while it's all front of mind (and while the motivation to do the stump-pulling is still strong). Yes, it has occurred to me that if I wait a year, skimming in German will be easier, but given my previous experience writing for publication, not remembering what I want to say and where I found it is problematic enough in English that I need to get down what I can while I can.
Re: Salon original discoveries
Date: 2021-09-16 04:53 am (UTC)My strong preference (given that I am not doing any of the stump-pulling) is for you to work on stump-pulling Essay 1-3. 4-5 if you have time as well (would love 5, I ship them a bunch), but those sound a little less like they have a path to a complete published article.
Re: Salon original discoveries
Date: 2021-09-16 01:19 pm (UTC)Hahahaha, you. :P
In my case, I care, I just have to be rigorous when writign scholarship, and I can't say that Fredersdorf didn't do anything wrong. Just that there's plenty of evidence that he stepped down of his own accord, and the claim that he didn't fails to present evidence.
4-5 if you have time as well (would love 5, I ship them a bunch), but those sound a little less like they have a path to a complete published article.
Yeah, 4 I couldn't even start now if I wanted to, it's still in the research phase and I'm not even doing the research. 5 I could, I'm just not sure it's meaty enough.
At some point I may bug you for cheerleading like you did with German, then. In the meantime, thanks for the support!
Re: Salon original discoveries
Date: 2021-09-16 04:13 pm (UTC)*cheerleads*
Re: Salon original discoveries
Date: 2021-09-16 04:10 pm (UTC)In which case I withdraw any objection, because I entirely agree with that. :) The order and focus of essays 1 - 4 I also support.
Re: the shortness of essay 5, the Fredersdorf's engagement and marriage stories - how about beefing its length up with a little speculation re: the timing of the engagement and marriage in connection to the Voltaire implosion? And also Fredersdorf taking all these medical leaves?
Re: Salon original discoveries
Date: 2021-09-17 12:09 am (UTC)Hmm. I feel like I would have to keep it short, because it's so circumstantial and speculative. The real evidence we have is that he had worsening health problems, traveled for health reasons (and to do some art acquisition in Paris for Fritz??), and got married for health reasons. I wouldn't blame an editor or peer reviewer for suggesting I cut it even if I do include it. And even if I left it, I don't think it would be enough to turn a too-short article into a proper article.
But if I do the other essays (if), and if I still feel like doing more stump-pulling and/or