But, what is surprising is that, if this is correct, then somehow Pöllnitz kept Wilhelmine's memoirs a secret all his life.
While I can believe he kept it a secret from Fritz - knowing where his bread was buttered and not being suicidal - it’s still bewildering to imagine he didn’t tell anyone else. However, since Pöllnitz survived Wilhelmine by considerable time, he may in addition to whatever they told each other in 1744 have gotten a copy from the memoirs - or been allowed to read one and make excerpts - from Dr. Superville, who according to Droysen had the most extensive “Braunschweig” one, after her death. Given we simply don’t know when his own Histoire was finished, it could have been at any point before his own death.
I had a quick overview following your links since alas I lack the time for more, and it’s very late 19th century German in both cases (Droysen and Wallat) Along with sense-making textual comparisons and critique there’s a lot of “FW would never”. The hair dragging of Fritz and all the abuse of both Fritz and Wilhelmine has to be invented by Worst Daughter. The punching by Frau von Pannewitz is unspeakable slander along with FW lusting after her to begin with. The vocubulary she gives her father in general is something not only FW would not have used but Wallat can’t expose his tender fin du siècle readers to. And what kind of a woman writes crude stuff like this? (Meanwhile, my anecdotes from Team Arnim and Brentano have arrived. Turns out Fredersdorf’s father-in-law Daum was an occasional tobbacco parliament member, so FW has cameos, in which he tells Daum all women are whores (except, when Daum protests, for Mrs. Daum and SD. But all others.) And shouts “whores” after many a female citizen.
Younger Seckendorff’s journal grudgingly can’t be accused of being written in hindsight and with mean distortions by Wallat, but clearly it doesn’t do FW’s greatness justice due to inherent evil Austrian bias, and “one believes one hears the Margravine speak” when FW’s parenting is described, which, however, doesn’t enhance Wilhelmine’s credibility (despite the fact Seckendorff can’t possibly have it from her), it just proves how biased Other Seckendorff is. Otoh, his “here stands one who will avenge me?” Quote? utterly credible und ace reporting. As opposed to the utter utter slander of claiming FW, most honest of all princes who would never lie, most German of Germans, would POSSIBLY ally with the evil FRENCH against the Emperor (though the Emperor doesn’t deserve his loyalty, of course), and it shows how prejudiced Seckendorff is when snarknig about FW making contradictory alliances and double dealing.
I mean, he also does a lot of actual source comparisons. But that attitude is everywhere. Also, MIldred, Wallat wants to know why Fritz doesn’t get more credit for HIS portrayal of FW in the Histoire, because clearly it’s the best ever. Fritz as a born truthteller and impartial judge is evident in his harsh depiction of F1, that’s all the proof you need that his praise for FW isn’t filial duty, it’s brilliant objective analysis, and his critique of some of FW’s decisions is spot on, for yes, FW had flaws. But he wasn’t the ogre Wilhelmine described! (Or Pöllniltz, or any of the others.) And leaving aside Fritz gets some dates wrong and has too much foreign policty and too little inner policy in his FW chapter of the HIstoire, he’s the best, most credible source of FW among any of his contemporaries by far!
The biggest news for me was that Droysen says, and Wallat Wilhelmine worked on her memoirs until at least 1755, and the proof for this is that there was a diary of the Italian journey with the Braunschweig manuscript (i.e. the latest version in existence). This is the first time I heard of one, and I surely have not read any Italian journey diary in any edition of Wilhelmine’s memoirs (or elsewhere). I’ll check out the website devoted to her Italian and French travels again, but I’m pretty sure it only has letters (and a map!), not diary notes or a travellogue And I can’t recall any biographer quoting from them, either - only from the letters. Huh. In the far FAR FAR future when I have more time than such quick looks, I might have to check the Stabi for a more modern source comparison on the various stages of Wilhelmine’s memoir manuscripts (only one of which according to Droysen if I’ve understood this correctly is in her handwriting, the others are copies made by other people. Droysen says the one owned by Heinrich, for example, is written on paper from FW3’s era (with the water sign proving the paper was created only when FW3 was already king). (This fits with FW3 being the one to give the memoirs to Heinrich - evidently he didn’t give him an original but a copy to keep.)
And that’s it, more than this bit of skipping through both essays I can’t manage. Must work the rest of the week on non Fritzian things!
I checked the Wilhelmine's travel website, and the introductory text does mention a travel diary (without quoting from it), which is footnoted to:
Burrell, Mary: Thoughts for Enthusiasts at Bayreuth. Collected in memory of 1882 and 1883. [With plates, including portraits, and maps.]. Chapter IV. Unpublished Journal "Voyage d'Italie" and sixty unpublished letters of the Margravine of Bayreuth to Frederick the Great, together with sixteen unpublished letters from the King to the Margravine, London 1882.
So, over to you, native speaker, to Ms. Burrell's publication.
I wish, but gah! This native speaker can't find an accessible copy. It looks like only a limited number of copies were printed, privately.
* No online copies I've turned up yet. * Nothing for purchase for less than $138. * No orderable Stabi copy, it looks like you have to be in the reading room. (You can order a digitized copy, it looks like, but at 0.40 euros per page, that will hit $138 quickly.)
Mind you, "Unpublished Journal 'Voyage d'Italie'" gives me deep concerns that the journal might have been published untranslated anyway. In which case, even if you manage to get reading room access someday, we'd be in the Des Champs situation of hoping the English-speaking author gave us a summary.
Anyway, I'll keep looking, and Felis can look too if they [pronouns?] have time and interest, because I only had a few minutes at lunch, but your Stabi may end up being our only (post-pandemic) hope, yet again! If you get reading room access and it turns out the journal is in French, and you can't safely scan the volume, if you can snap some pictures of the text with your camera, I'll see what I can do with getting the results translated.
Well, the catalogue notes say "English" for the language of the book, but it still might be only referring to the author/editor's language, with Wilhelmine's notes and the letters reprinted as a facsimile in the original French, because this particular copy can only be read in the Handschriftensaal, not in the Allgemeine Lesesaal (where you usually read all that's not handed out), and you need to apply to a special license to use the Handschriftensaal (i.e. prove you're an earnest researcher for this subject), which I don't have.
Maybe that's the reason why no one has been quoting from her Italian diary in the biographies - too difficult to track down, and you need to be up to French Rokoko handwriting?
Maybe that's the reason why no one has been quoting from her Italian diary in the biographies - too difficult to track down, and you need to be up to French Rokoko handwriting?
Oof, yes, that would explain a lot. Also, I took a closer look through WorldCat just now, and at least two of the entries list the language as French. So I think it really is the original, maybe a facsimile, maybe a transcription, but not a translation into English.
Okay, found another description: "185 pages: frontispiece (portrait) illustrations (including coats of arms) facsimiles (part folded); 32 cm. The letters of the Margravine and Frederick the Great are preserved in the state archives, the Journal in the Royal Library at Berlin."
It's possible the facsimiles are samples and the whole journal is transcribed, like Richter did with Fredersdorf (that volume also has folded facsimiles), but it could just be straight up facsimiles.
Ah, wait, found an even better description: "1891. No Edition Remarks. 185 pages. No dust jacket. Vellum boards. French text. Chapter IV of Thoughts for Enthusiasts at Bayreuth. Contains 10 black and white in text illustrations and 7 facsimiles throughout." Phew! Looks like Mrs. Burrell typed up the text. And yes, we now have confirmation that the main text is in French. Your "native speaker" hopes were foiled!
Okay, I've found a few copies in the US through WorldCat. I'm not terribly optimistic that any of them will be ILL-able, but I've gone ahead and placed a request through my local library. If not, well, our two options are to request a digitized copy from the Stabi, which at .40 euros a page and 185 pages is 74 euros, or order a copy online--currently $138, but I'll keep an eye out for a better price.
But yeah, I can see why no one is quoting from this book!
you need to apply to a special license to use the Handschriftensaal (i.e. prove you're an earnest researcher for this subject), which I don't have.
My first reaction was, "But, I mean, if you're not an earnest researcher on this subject, who is! :P" But then it turned out to be in French, so I think you reading in the Handschriftensaal is not our best bet any more. This looks like a job for a detective + librarian + algorithm writer. (If I were working 40 hours/week, $138 would not be a problem, but the thing is I'm only working 30 hours/week for the foreseeable future. Hmm. Am seriously considering reaching out to a company for which I do a bit of consulting now and again. :P)
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Pöllnitz: Secret Keeper?
Date: 2021-07-19 08:01 pm (UTC)But, what is surprising is that, if this is correct, then somehow Pöllnitz kept Wilhelmine's memoirs a secret all his life.
While I can believe he kept it a secret from Fritz - knowing where his bread was buttered and not being suicidal - it’s still bewildering to imagine he didn’t tell anyone else. However, since Pöllnitz survived Wilhelmine by considerable time, he may in addition to whatever they told each other in 1744 have gotten a copy from the memoirs - or been allowed to read one and make excerpts - from Dr. Superville, who according to Droysen had the most extensive “Braunschweig” one, after her death. Given we simply don’t know when his own Histoire was finished, it could have been at any point before his own death.
I had a quick overview following your links since alas I lack the time for more, and it’s very late 19th century German in both cases (Droysen and Wallat) Along with sense-making textual comparisons and critique there’s a lot of “FW would never”. The hair dragging of Fritz and all the abuse of both Fritz and Wilhelmine has to be invented by Worst Daughter. The punching by Frau von Pannewitz is unspeakable slander along with FW lusting after her to begin with. The vocubulary she gives her father in general is something not only FW would not have used but Wallat can’t expose his tender fin du siècle readers to. And what kind of a woman writes crude stuff like this? (Meanwhile, my anecdotes from Team Arnim and Brentano have arrived. Turns out Fredersdorf’s father-in-law Daum was an occasional tobbacco parliament member, so FW has cameos, in which he tells Daum all women are whores (except, when Daum protests, for Mrs. Daum and SD. But all others.) And shouts “whores” after many a female citizen.
Younger Seckendorff’s journal grudgingly can’t be accused of being written in hindsight and with mean distortions by Wallat, but clearly it doesn’t do FW’s greatness justice due to inherent evil Austrian bias, and “one believes one hears the Margravine speak” when FW’s parenting is described, which, however, doesn’t enhance Wilhelmine’s credibility (despite the fact Seckendorff can’t possibly have it from her), it just proves how biased Other Seckendorff is. Otoh, his “here stands one who will avenge me?” Quote? utterly credible und ace reporting. As opposed to the utter utter slander of claiming FW, most honest of all princes who would never lie, most German of Germans, would POSSIBLY ally with the evil FRENCH against the Emperor (though the Emperor doesn’t deserve his loyalty, of course), and it shows how prejudiced Seckendorff is when snarknig about FW making contradictory alliances and double dealing.
I mean, he also does a lot of actual source comparisons. But that attitude is everywhere. Also, MIldred, Wallat wants to know why Fritz doesn’t get more credit for HIS portrayal of FW in the Histoire, because clearly it’s the best ever. Fritz as a born truthteller and impartial judge is evident in his harsh depiction of F1, that’s all the proof you need that his praise for FW isn’t filial duty, it’s brilliant objective analysis, and his critique of some of FW’s decisions is spot on, for yes, FW had flaws. But he wasn’t the ogre Wilhelmine described! (Or Pöllniltz, or any of the others.) And leaving aside Fritz gets some dates wrong and has too much foreign policty and too little inner policy in his FW chapter of the HIstoire, he’s the best, most credible source of FW among any of his contemporaries by far!
The biggest news for me was that Droysen says, and Wallat Wilhelmine worked on her memoirs until at least 1755, and the proof for this is that there was a diary of the Italian journey with the Braunschweig manuscript (i.e. the latest version in existence). This is the first time I heard of one, and I surely have not read any Italian journey diary in any edition of Wilhelmine’s memoirs (or elsewhere). I’ll check out the website devoted to her Italian and French travels again, but I’m pretty sure it only has letters (and a map!), not diary notes or a travellogue And I can’t recall any biographer quoting from them, either - only from the letters. Huh. In the far FAR FAR future when I have more time than such quick looks, I might have to check the Stabi for a more modern source comparison on the various stages of Wilhelmine’s memoir manuscripts (only one of which according to Droysen if I’ve understood this correctly is in her handwriting, the others are copies made by other people. Droysen says the one owned by Heinrich, for example, is written on paper from FW3’s era (with the water sign proving the paper was created only when FW3 was already king). (This fits with FW3 being the one to give the memoirs to Heinrich - evidently he didn’t give him an original but a copy to keep.)
And that’s it, more than this bit of skipping through both essays I can’t manage. Must work the rest of the week on non Fritzian things!
Re: Pöllnitz: Secret Keeper?
Date: 2021-07-20 12:26 am (UTC)Re: Pöllnitz: Secret Keeper?
Date: 2021-07-20 02:25 pm (UTC)Burrell, Mary: Thoughts for Enthusiasts at Bayreuth. Collected in memory of 1882 and 1883. [With plates, including portraits, and maps.]. Chapter IV. Unpublished Journal "Voyage d'Italie" and sixty unpublished letters of the Margravine of Bayreuth to Frederick the Great, together with sixteen unpublished letters from the King to the Margravine, London 1882.
So, over to you, native speaker, to Ms. Burrell's publication.
Re: Pöllnitz: Secret Keeper?
Date: 2021-07-21 12:45 am (UTC)* No online copies I've turned up yet.
* Nothing for purchase for less than $138.
* No orderable Stabi copy, it looks like you have to be in the reading room. (You can order a digitized copy, it looks like, but at 0.40 euros per page, that will hit $138 quickly.)
Mind you, "Unpublished Journal 'Voyage d'Italie'" gives me deep concerns that the journal might have been published untranslated anyway. In which case, even if you manage to get reading room access someday, we'd be in the Des Champs situation of hoping the English-speaking author gave us a summary.
Anyway, I'll keep looking, and Felis can look too if they [pronouns?] have time and interest, because I only had a few minutes at lunch, but your Stabi may end up being our only (post-pandemic) hope, yet again! If you get reading room access and it turns out the journal is in French, and you can't safely scan the volume, if you can snap some pictures of the text with your camera, I'll see what I can do with getting the results translated.
Re: Pöllnitz: Secret Keeper?
Date: 2021-07-21 06:51 am (UTC)Maybe that's the reason why no one has been quoting from her Italian diary in the biographies - too difficult to track down, and you need to be up to French Rokoko handwriting?
The hunt for Wilhelmine's travel diary
Date: 2021-07-21 01:03 pm (UTC)Oof, yes, that would explain a lot. Also, I took a closer look through WorldCat just now, and at least two of the entries list the language as French. So I think it really is the original, maybe a facsimile, maybe a transcription, but not a translation into English.
Okay, found another description: "185 pages: frontispiece (portrait) illustrations (including coats of arms) facsimiles (part folded); 32 cm. The letters of the Margravine and Frederick the Great are preserved in the state archives, the Journal in the Royal Library at Berlin."
It's possible the facsimiles are samples and the whole journal is transcribed, like Richter did with Fredersdorf (that volume also has folded facsimiles), but it could just be straight up facsimiles.
Ah, wait, found an even better description: "1891. No Edition Remarks. 185 pages. No dust jacket. Vellum boards. French text. Chapter IV of Thoughts for Enthusiasts at Bayreuth. Contains 10 black and white in text illustrations and 7 facsimiles throughout." Phew! Looks like Mrs. Burrell typed up the text. And yes, we now have confirmation that the main text is in French. Your "native speaker" hopes were foiled!
Okay, I've found a few copies in the US through WorldCat. I'm not terribly optimistic that any of them will be ILL-able, but I've gone ahead and placed a request through my local library. If not, well, our two options are to request a digitized copy from the Stabi, which at .40 euros a page and 185 pages is 74 euros, or order a copy online--currently $138, but I'll keep an eye out for a better price.
But yeah, I can see why no one is quoting from this book!
you need to apply to a special license to use the Handschriftensaal (i.e. prove you're an earnest researcher for this subject), which I don't have.
My first reaction was, "But, I mean, if you're not an earnest researcher on this subject, who is! :P" But then it turned out to be in French, so I think you reading in the Handschriftensaal is not our best bet any more. This looks like a job for a detective + librarian + algorithm writer. (If I were working 40 hours/week, $138 would not be a problem, but the thing is I'm only working 30 hours/week for the foreseeable future. Hmm. Am seriously considering reaching out to a company for which I do a bit of consulting now and again. :P)
Re: The hunt for Wilhelmine's travel diary
Date: 2021-07-23 07:42 pm (UTC)Will keep it on my radar for if I find time to do some consulting and spend $138 on a book.
Re: The hunt for Wilhelmine's travel diary
Date: 2021-07-24 05:43 am (UTC)